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gusamc - Member
Well I've been stopped many a time by game keepers and The Dales Wardens on the landrover tracks, they always get a discussion. As the area is open access with by-laws I just point out that one of them Forbids "carrying an electronic device for production of music". [not the exact words but close enough] and ask if they have a mobile phone with them.
They always have, when asked does it say anything about "Cycling" they start to mutter. 😀
BTW it mentions things like Kite flying and a friend has been threatened with a prosecution for Parapenting of their land !!!!
The specific instance I mentioned earlier was to do with Climbing on a Crag they dont want people climbing on, since it happened another friend has been cautioned as we were. I have climbed on it since the Police caution as have a few others. So beware is all I'm saying.
cheers, useful info.
In your position I might be tempted to see if there are any tax deals on art etc etc - as if there are they MUST allow public viewing, or make enquiries about SSI and subsidies etc
I ride cheeky most times now, and the gamekeeper has been the only fly in the ointment, I get moans and comments from a few ramblers but they are 'not the landowner or an appointed factor therof' or whatever it is, all other people who have known the law and had the legal right to apply it have been happy, smiley helpful people and not the least bothered aboout it.
On a more positive note, I once made the mistake of riding down a nice rocky bit of double track in Dorset which turned out to be a back entrance to Madonna's mansion. I only realised this when greeted by 3 blacked out landrovers who suggested I turn around and go back 🙂
1. There is no criminal offence of ridng a bicycle (or any other non motorised vehicle including horse and carts) on a footpath.
2. Just because it's recorded on the definitive map as a footpath doesn't mean that cycle rights don't exist.
3. IF a landowner decided to sue you for trespass he would have to prove on balance of probability that no cycle rights existed. When the definitive maps were first drawn up, and in the subsequent revisions of them, cycle rights were generally under recorded on the map. This is because recording the true status of routes would mean more byways and bridlepaths which is fiercely opposed by anti access organisations such as the Ramblers Assosciation and GLEAM.
4. Recording rights of way for cyclists has been made much harder by the NERC act which was campaigned for by the CTC.
Orangetoaster:
How would you find out if cycle rights exist under a footpath definition?
I ride on local footpaths here in Northumberland, but I avoid the trails over the grouse moors (esecially in the shooting and nesting seasons). Twice been acosted by angry gamekeepers, who coincidentally had big guns. Trespass in that case could be damage to ground nesting birds and subsequent loss of earnings from loss of shooting.
Only once been stopped on a footpath where I kindly explained that I was causing less damage than the landrover parked behind me....
Dan W
It's a complex task requiring research of historical documents.
"rights of way - a guide to law and practice" has some usefull guides on how to research rights of way.
I'm not aware of any cycling organisations that are actively involved in securing historic carriageways for mountain bikers. The Trail Riders Fellowship work to conserve historic roads. Your local group may well be able to help.
poly - Member
The worst that can happen? Probably you accidentally hit a frail old lady knocking her to the ground and fatally wounding her and you end up being charged with manslaughter... ...how likely that is will very much depend on the path, your riding style, the popularity of the path etc.
I agree and always have with the above. If something were to happen, for example a mountain biker in collision with a walker. I think that the mountain biker would be hard pushed to prove their innocence even if they were not to blame, purely due to the fact that they should not be on the footpath in the first place.
Dales Rider - was this on the Barden estate? Just interested as I'm local and it may be a slight disincentive to all the cheekiness I'm considering when the weather improves.
Actual collisions aside how could it actually end up in court? My bike doesn't have number plates and I certainly wouldn't be giving my name or address to anyone.
Presumably in the case of cycling on a footpath, as opposed to just cycling on a piece of land without a ROW, you could argue that any damage caused is no worse than would be caused by a walker? So suing/charging you for 'scaring birds' or 'damaging shrubs' seems totally unreasonable, since walkers would do exactly the same, and have a legal right to be there?
martinhutch - MemberDales Rider - was this on the Barden estate? Just interested as I'm local and it may be a slight disincentive to all the cheekiness I'm considering when the weather improves.
You guessed it.
Funniest occurrence we had was late 90's about a week before Christmas. A route we had done several times but this time the Head Game Keeper must have had his curtains open.
Coming from the Valley Of Desolation and across the top of Laund Plantation when we turned down to the Storiths road our lights must have shone straight into his house on Black Park. A whole possie of gamekeepers in landrovers were sent out.
We'd gone through a gate to head down towards the Strid when they turned up. Crouching down behind the wall trying not to giggle we got the gist that they were after motorcyclists / quad riders and that they must be around somewhere with a van or pickup. Even made the ptress as suspected poachers.......... 😀
BTW Loads of good routes if you want some inside info.
I agree and always have with the above. If something were to happen, for example a mountain biker in collision with a walker. I think that the mountain biker would be hard pushed to prove their innocence even if they were not to blame, purely due to the fact that they should not be on the footpath in the first place.
You're suggesting that you're more likely to get found guilty of manslaughter because you have no right of way? 😯 I don't believe criminal law cares all that much about such things - you do realise that it's not up to you to prove your innocence in a criminal case?
Forgive if I'm wrong etc etc
I understood trespass was going onto land with the [u]intent[/u] of doing damage. ie not only have you done damage to crops (or lord preserve us all...shrubbery) but you did so with the express intent of doing so. (if you see what I mean).
in other words you can't be done for trespass just because you've damaged something.
Dales Rider - cheers, yes, I thought it must be them.
Must admit, I don't get over to the Simon's Seat side very often, more the Barden Moor end (using the BWs of course 🙂 ).
The case law that declared a cyclist as a foot passenger was, if I remember right, in regards to a cyclist who was knocked down on a pedestrian crossing whilst pushing his bike.
It's important to remember that there's a big difference between a footway (such as a pavement by the road ... and the crossings in between) and a footpath. It is an offence to cycle on the former (unless, and again don't quote me, this is from memory, you're under a certain age or can give a good reason for doing so, such as feeling unsafe on the road), where you can be fined on the spot.
The rules of a footpath are more vague. And the term usually bandied around is 'natural accompaniment', because the law allows you natural accompaniments when traversing public footpaths. Plenty of people are willing to state that a bicycle does not amount to a natural accompaniment, but I don't believe the law is actually clear on this, and there's a hell of a lot of people out there who would argue it is! You're making a journey, cycling some roads, walking some footpaths. Seems perfectly natural to me.
Short answer, as already established in this thread however, is that there is no answer.
There's actually a really good series of articles on the Singletrack site, including an interview with a RoW officer.
Do you have a link to the RoW officer interview butcher?
With regards to pavements it appears there is a £30 on the spot fine which must be delivered by an officer in uniform. This does not apply to under 16's from what I can gather online.
martinhutch - MemberDales Rider - cheers, yes, I thought it must be them.
Must admit, I don't get over to the Simon's Seat side very often, more the Barden Moor end (using the BWs of course ).
One of the best descents around is on Barden Moor all the way from Thorpe Moor Top down to Drebley, or so I hear 😉
turned out to be a back entrance to Madonna
😯
turned out to be a back entrance to Madonna
The guys who insisted on being present in their blacked out 4x4's were too much of a distraction to proceed any further...
The way I see it, English law says you DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT to cycle on a footpath; it doesn't say you MUST NOT cycle on a footpath.
I'm probably wrong though.
[quote=[b]orangetoaster[/b]]Recording rights of way for cyclists has been made much harder by the NERC act That's interesting, could you explain a bit more? I thought NERC just affected establishing rights of way for mechanically propelled vehicles (not pedal cycles). I can see that means recording a right of way will now only be worked for by cyclists, walkers and horse riders, but equally I would have expected opposition to be limited, ie, people who would have opposed a RoW for motorised use won't be worried about cyclists.
If I can avoid roads I do even if i ride on a pavement, but I am always courteous and polite to pedestrians and don't go flying past then scaring the shit out of them, I always smile and acknowledge either with a thank you if they have moved to the side or a greeting, this also applies to footpaths through fields.
So far I have had no one have a go at me in fact the most I normally get is "good morning"
a little article about it
www.guardian.co.uk/environment/bike-blog/2011/jul/28/cycling-pavement-offence