All we need is kaese to chip in.
funkynick - Member
rkk... if someone had tripped, fallen and hit their head while walking, would you now be wearing a helmet walking down the street? If not, why not if as you say all the risk management arguments are fatuous...
Ordinarily, no... although that scenario may well be far more common than the mtb one being discussed, especially if alchohol / Friday / Saturday nights are included.... However, if at work, then yes, I might well be wearing a helmet.
ETA - and I don't mean ALL risk management arguments are fatuous - just those that are being put forward about high risk / low risk trails. Yes for a "high risk" fast rocky descent the injury rate will probably be higher than for a flat cycle track. The risk of injury is present for both, but our preparedness might be significantly different
I went for a potter around Rutland water with a mate yesterday and didn't bother with a helmet - although I did initially consider it.
Normally though I wear a helmet - I would rather there was some polystyrene between my head and a rock, as rocks are way harder than my delicate noggin.
There was a comment earlier about polystyrene in modern helmets being harder than in older ones. I assume this is because manufacturers have tested various types of polystyrene and found one that is soft enough to slow down the deceleration of your head in a 'typical' collision, but is hard enough that your head doesn't just plough straight through it.
I find in wooded singletrack I will occasionally whack my helmet on a low branch. Now there is the arguement that had the helmet not been there, my head would have cleared the branch - perhaps true. But I would still rather have a helmet to whack branches out of the way with.
And - what the hell would I mount my helmet mounted torch on, if I didn't wear a helmet?!
Ho do people do it?
They go on like they have a jedi power to know whether wearing a helmet is going to be worth it or not. I wish i had that. Ahh well like all the other mere humans im just going to have to wear one all the time 😉
Stumpy - actually the harder polystyrene is because modern vented helmets have so many holes in them that to meet the testing they have had to make the poly harder which is arguably not so good in an actual crash. Its a flaw in the testing regeime
Its a flaw in the testing regeime
In that by making them nicer to wear you're more likely to wear one? 😉
No PP - in that by making the poly harder they have removed some of its impact reducing properties. the manufacturers know this is not good but they have to meet the testing standards
rkk... so the fatuous ones are just those you disagree with then! 😉
Just out of interest, does anyone know the helmet wearing rates for places like Holland and Denmark? Last time I was in Denmark there were bikes everywhere and no-one wearing helmets... has this changed at all?
to be honest with you TJ i am amazed you can be bothered to asses the risk
before each ride. Personly i just wack me lid on and get out the door.
half the time i dont know where im going anyway.
As nonk says ^^. To me, it's just part of going out on a bike - I always wear a helmet. Not wearing one feels wrong in the same way that driving a car while not wearing a seatbelt feels wrong
There is a scientific test for this. Smack TJ round the head with a piece of 2x4 while he's wearing a helmet. Then do the same when he's not wearing one.
Then see which has caused the most damage...
I wonder if there's anything that TJ hasn't been trained in. I admire him, I really do.
Anyway, here's a risk assessment scenario. You're out with your mate & riding in say, Wark Forest & mainly riding forest roads with little or no intention of riding anything technical at all. You need to be back at the car by X Oclock cos it's an hour to get home & your'e taking the missus out at Y Oclock & if your'e late she'll kill you.
Helmet or not? (for the ride, not protection from the missus)
When we did our north sea cycle trip 400km up the west coast of Denmark we saw very few people with helmets on, probably less than 5 percent.
That chart tells me that the more people who cycle, the less of them die irrespective of whether they wear a helmet or not.
Much as I hate to say it, TJ is right. Sort of.
We all constantly make decisions on risk and how to mitigate them. Most of us at some point in our mtbing have seen a trail and decided not to ride it because it's too steep/difficult/sketchy and we think there's a good chance we'll crash/get injured (obviously this being STW, there will be a disproportionate number of riding gods who've ridden down vertical cliffs but the point still stands in general). TJ is simply saying the same thing and is clearly willing to take more of a risk with his head than most of the rest of us - that's not inherently right or wrong but just his choice.
Now, I don't agree with his decision for myself, simply because while I think the risk of head injury is relatively low (notwithstanding PP's RA which uses a different scale on risk than most of us would use outside of work) the potential impact is very high (eg potential brain damage). Wearing a helmet is not an issue for me - I don't find them uncomfortable and it seems like common sense to me that in general (again not always but on balance) they will prevent/reduce far more injuries than they will cause - so on the basis that I can mitigate (not eliminate) the risk of head injury, I always wear a helmet.
TJ's choice is his own. Sanctimonious posts about people looking after you for the rest of your life and so on are BS since we all choose to do a sport that does have risks of injury with similar consequences that don't require a head injury (eg spinal injuries).
That chart tells me in which countries drivers are more respectful and aware of cyclists on the road.
It is difficult to draw conclusions from that chart and other data - one common theme is that all the data on helmets is of rather poor quality.
However it is clear that in countries where they don't wear helmets head injury rates are lower. Why this is is hard to say but it is a real effect
Is there any basis in fact for any cycling statistics though???
Motorcycle forums bemoan the comparison of cycling and motorcycling injury / fatality statistics, becasue the data collection is so very different...
For motor vehicles:
- annual mileages are fairly well understood (important for the per mile / km statistics). All vehicles have an odometer, and disclosure of vehicle mileage is compulsory at MoT and is normally stated for insurance purposes.
- all injury incidents are legally reportable, so if you are a car / motorcyclist (or cyclist invloved in an incident with a motor vehicle), your injury will be counted in the stats.
- all motor vehicles require compulsory insurance - even those incidents that are not reported as injury incidents still get captured as most / many will be notofied to the insuranbce companies.
- Councils / Highways Agency / developers spend a lot of money on transport surveys / modelling to evaluate routes / improvements. provides more data on vehicle miles for each mode of transport.
For cycling:
- No requirement to record bike mileage, register bikes, know the number of bikes in use etc - so very little basis to state bike miles / km for comparison of injury / incident rates.
- No legal requirement to report injuries (except as above with motor vehicle), so many cylcle injuries are either unreported or based on A&E admissions stats.
- No universal insurance requirement.
Surely the No of incidents / mile for cycling must surely be highly conjectured, and even if it has been established, still based on very different data set and population to similar data for motor vehicles.
and that doesn't even account for getting off the public highway!!!!
Does it really matter,if people choose to ride a MTB without a helmet then on their HEAD be it......
So as Ian Munro asked earlier - do all you "must wear a helmet" types wear spine protectors? You are increasing your risk of spinal injury you realise and spinal injuries appear to be more common than serious head injuries
Just out of interest, to those who only wear a helemt on certain occations, what is it that makes you NOT want to wear a helmet?
Are they uncomfortable?
Do you feel that they limit your riding abilities(more freedom)?
Do you feel they are too heavy?
Stuart - I find them sweaty and uncomfortable. They get in the way of my sunglasses ( can't just push 'em on my forehead) The helmet is a ruddy pest when going into pubs and stuff. The straps irritate. I simply don't like riding one thus only wear one when risks are high
Thats fair enough. Mine doesnt bother me so i wear it all the time. Each to their own, just try not to die!
I had an accident at leith hill recently on a bit of trail I've ridden at least 50 times without incident.
The resultant crash was hard enough to split the expanded foam of a Bell Triton in half down the middle and I had a very sharp rock lodged in one of the vents above my temple.
My head was badly bruised and I was concussed for a day or so.
I'm sure I would have been significantly more damaged had I not been wearing it and would suggest based on my expereince that helmets are a good idea.
That's my take on it anyway.
I still dont wear one on the road or local towpaths etc as I assess the risk as lower but for any serious riding I always do.
No PP - in that by making the poly harder they have removed some of its impact reducing properties
Or maybe it was too soft before, so it's been toughened up? Whatever, it's still preferable to road/rock. I happen to know that Citroen laminated windscreens hurt less than the rear of a BMW 5 series, because they bend a bit more, but both are preferable to tarmac. 🙂
Double post
TJ - safety issues aside, are you not bothered that other mountain bikers think you look like a total noddy when you go out on your bike without a helmet?
Starlet, you wear a helmet to stop the other boys laughing at you then? 🙄
starlet - do you really think that bothers me in the slightest? I think many mtbers are utter numpties for all sorts of things.
I was out with a posse a few weeks ago on a ride I know well - 15 miles of scenic flat landrover track - I asked a couple of folk if anyone would throw a tantrum as I didn't want to wear a helmet.
One family was kids was there - they kids were told - wear a helmet or you grow up like all funny like TJ.
The insistence on wearing helmets all the time is IMO stupid and leads to all sorts of problems - making a safe pursuit look dangerous, helmets are so poorly designed that I believe from good evidence that they significantly increase the risk of neck breaks, I believe then many folk take totally unneeded risks - hence all the injuries folk suffer.
I am certain that the helmets are poorly designed and tested. Lots of good evidence about that and why do other similar sports have helmets tha perform so much better?
[i]- making a safe pursuit look dangerous[/i]
+20 !
Although it may suit some bikers to bolster their image as extreeeeeme sportsmen, and you may think that girl in the office swoons because of your manly pursuit and disregard for the danger that is modern mountain biking, the fact remains that mountain biking is a safe sport, practised by largely middle class fellas.
If it were as dangerous as some folk are making out, then two thirds of this forum wouldn't be allowed to do it by their bosses, their wives and/or girlfriends and especially by their mums.
I still dont wear one on the road
Trouble is that I am discovering more and more that some drivers love to make you brake hard in the wet hen you are on skinny tyres. At least on the trail there is a good chance of a soft landing 🙂
I have been doing this over a year and try to get out once a week for a few hours. In under 60 times out I have hit my head twice and have fallen off countless times so ovbiously I must wear a helmet; likelyhood of an accident is High ... Waiting in casualty for hours for a few stiches is just a pain in the arse that we can all do without...
nb I dont wear a helmet for walking as for the last 30 years I have walked every day and never hit my head. the risk of an accident is low
Oh and for the poster who made the point that there is nowhere for your helmet light...well that makes the most sense of all. Good on you sir.
I believe then many folk take totally unneeded risks - hence all the injuries folk suffer.
Isn't that just the "Mountain" Element of the Biking we do? 😉
Seriously though, you're right, many/most of us do perhaps take totally unnecessary risks when we're out on our bikes. BUT IT'S FUN 😀
Hence I wear a helmet, as does everyone else I know and ride with... Ergo I started this thread in the first place... I perhaps hadn't realised there were people not concerned with riding technical stuff, or taking a risk at all, such as yourself. Each to their own I suppose, I'm a bit of a thrill junkie to some extent (perhaps not to Jedi's extent granted!), so a bit of speed and danger makes me feel alive. I wear a helmet to mitigate potential damage to by head caused by being potentially over zealous out on the trails.
And before anyone asks, I suppose like TJ I do do a fair amount of risk assessment based upon the riding I'm going to be doing myself. Am I going on an XC ride? Yes, then wear an XC lid... Am I going messing about on DH tracks with a lift to the top of the hill? Yes, then wear my full face helmet, knee/shin armour my Dainese body armour too. I understand that I am creating more risks by the type of riding I am going to be doing. But perhaps it's because none of the riding I do offroad is of such low risk that I would ever consider not wearing a helmet of sorts that I always wear one? So I'll concede you do have a point there TJ.
But I will add that whilst Cannock isn't the most extreme place in the world by some margin, the ground there is pretty firm, most of the FTD trail is now armoured against the weather, and so is pretty rocky. There's a fair few trees to smack yourself on at some sort of speed too. These guys weren't just pootling along the fireroads, they were doing the same trail, albeit granted slower than me and most other people I saw there (wearing helmets) yesterday.
Anyway, can we close this thread now please. I started it, I take the responsibility for that, but in the 160 odd posts we must have seen the same old ground covered 120 times... I was asking the question as to why people don't wear them as it surprises me, TJ has answered that pretty well to be fair, whether or not I agree with his rationale. I was not making any judgement based upon the fact they weren't wearing helmets, and I would never be someone to go over and tell them they should be wearing them. Each to their own! But we're all adults, and know the risks of a rock/head interface, hence I thought it a bit silly these guys would choose not to wear them personally...
Case closed?
haven't read all the posts but here's my experience :
Several years ago I was coming down a road off the Long Mynd in Shropshire when I had a front wheel blowout - boom - next I knew was waking up a few days later in hospital having had a fractured skull etc - apparently when I came off I skidded into the kerb and hit it with my head - I wasn't wearing a helmet.
Of course it's a choice issue but as someone further up said consider the other people that have to deal with this -
I know this experience was much worse for my family and for the people riding with me (luckily) at the time to deal with - as they had to do all the clearing up and worrying.
It took a while to get to riding again.
I've always worn a helmet since....
I believe then many folk take totally unneeded risks
What like actually going out on your bike in the first place (unless specifically for commuting/getting from A to B). 🙄
I am certain that the helmets are poorly designed and tested
But you've never tested one. Those of us that have know you're talking bobbins! 🙂
(For the record, I might not agree, but I'd stand by your freedom to make the decision. I'd never want to see lids compulsary)
mboy - wot - a sensible post on this thread! are you sure you are in the right place.
thanks for understanding my point. See that picture I posted - I do a fair bit of that sort of riding.
I'll add another anecdote and maybe added to the others on here it will influence some folk reading this thread to wear a lid.
I endoed at speed on a downhill and landed on my head, back and shoulder. The impact broke five ribs in my back behind the shoulderblade where it takes a lot of force to break them. I also broke a collar bone. The A&E assessed me a major trauma and kept me in overnight for observation so I think you'll agree there was a significant amount of energy in my crash.
Once I got home and scraped the dirt of my Giro E2 I found it was split right through. I'm convinced the helmet saved me from a serious head injury, fortunately at the time all I suffered from was some dizzyness.
Wearing a helmet takes such little effort that certainly off-road (and for me on road) its a no brainer. You can brake legs, arms, back and neck and OK the consequences can be dreadful but damage your central processor and you could literally end up a different person.
However I'm fundamentally a liberterian so just as I'm prepared to accept the consequences of MTBing wearing a helmet then if TJ or anyone else prefers not to use a helmet and they're prepared to accept perhaps a more serious set of consequences then fine.
so just as I'm prepared to accept the consequences of MTBing wearing a helmet then if TJ or anyone else prefers not to use a helmet and they're prepared to accept perhaps a more serious set of consequences then fine.
It's called 'Natural Selection' 🙂
I don't get this.
If you are out doing real mtb you are going to fall off unless you are taking it very easy.
I would have thought most riders on trail centers would expect to have some sort of mishap on most rides.
If you go over the front, common on the steeps I would have thought you are quike likely to land head down.
I used to ride on an easy trail, just out for a ride without a helmet in the summer. I came over a wooden bridge and hit a tiny 2 inch stump on my front wheel. I didn't see it until I went back to look afterwards. I went straight over the front on my face. Fortunately on a plus side I didn't hit a tree (it was in a forest.)
On the road side of things my dad and his pal were mowed down by a taxi driver from behind. My dad was off work for most of a year with a badly broken leg. But he was wearing a helmet which was cracked in half in the incident. He had no head injury. In fact the police kept as an example to show kids at schools.
His pal was in hospital for 2-3 weeks cracked head and spinal problems.
He still has back problems relating to this, guess what he wasn't wearing a helmet.
Ian - hence if I am doing that sort of riding where crashes are common I wear a helmet. Not that I crash much even then - it hurts too much. I only push my limits by a little bit - as I cannot afford to get injured and take time off work
As for your anecedote - its just that - an anecdote. One thing tho - wearing helmets increases the risk of spinal injuries so yuour dads pal without the helmet may well have had a more severe spinal injury if he had had one - and a helmet cracked into two parts more than likely has failed.
IainAhh, ah, so you're the custodian of the title of 'real' mountainbiking. Please define exactly real mountain biking for us as there's been much debate as to the one true definition. 😉
TJ, just humour me here...
Would you have worn a helmet if you were riding at Cannock yesterday (bear in mind a lot of the trail is rocky, it was wet, there's lots of trees, braking bumps etc.)?
And if yes, what's your opinion on those that weren't, other than the "freedom of choice" argument... I know they have the freedom of choice, we all do, but I'd like to see where you stand on this when push comes to shove...
a helmet cracked into two parts more than likely has failed
TJ, you keep bringing this up. While I can understand where you're coming from (about compression of the polystyrene reducing the peak force/decelleration of the head), I don't really agree that cracking is a failure as snapping the helmet absorbs force too. Have you got any actual proof of this?
OK, another anecdote, I was descending a hill(road) near Haddington where its possible to exceed 90km/h .I dont know what speed I was doing as the Suzuki Vitara overtook then pulled in to avoid the oncoming car but it clipped me and I definately glanced my head and shoulder of the stone wall, before sliding a very long way on the wet road.
Should I then take this incident as proof in the miraculous power of woolly beanies to protect against head injury?
Sadly, all this is just anecdote, not evidence, and its the same for all these tales of polystyrene hats too.
I'll repeat my question ; What is the most confident claim you've read from the makers of bike helmets regarding the protective qualities of their product?