[Closed] Riding offroad without a lid on?

Bike breaker - do you wear a full pressure suit when riding? That the logical conclusion of your point - or never go out at all.

Do you understand the difference between passive and active safety? I'd rather feel vulnerable and avoid the accident than hope that a bit of plastic protects me when I have one thru feeling invulnerable

I don't think any trail centres on Forestry Commission land enforce helmet rules - they have signs saying that they 'strongly advise' people to wear helmets when cycling, but no hard rules. Not sure how they'd enforce it even if they did.

I've seen people riding Glentress and Llandegla with no helmets too, so I think it's fairly common across trail centres - most people wear helmets, a few don't. Bit silly in my opinion, but it's their choice.

not a common part of cycling??

no helmets at cannock=typical brummie behaviour

no one looks as good as TJ in a flat cap off road

If we all agree that Steve Peat is the world champion of mountain biking (downhill) he should never need to wear one because he 's the best at riding a bike downhill. I don't remeber ever seeing him without one on, even pootling around Wharncliffe, but hey what does he know.

+1

Also noticed that Jenson Button bloke wearing a helmet whilst in his car, whats that all about. Surely a pair of oakleys to protect his eyes is all he needs?

As most sensible people have said, there's no harm wearing a helmet. If you do get injured then least you've done your upmost to protect yourself. As someone who's landed on his head and cracked his whole helmet then i'm glad i wore and do wear one. Its blatant stupidity not to.
And whats the point in doing this sportand being cautious to prevent possible injury. I want to be able to ride as hard and as fast as i can in knowledge that i have some sort of protection if things go wrong.
But then, alot of people on here are all talk and are pi55 poor on a bike so dont need to wear a helmet anyway!!

Ah, were you at the bike wash at about 3pm mboy, with a chap on a Santa Cruz of some sort (looked a bit like a Superlight)? I bizarrely got there late today, then got a very random headache. Assuming it was you, I was the very bewildered looking chap sat on the grassy bank in a garish yellow jacket.

How did the Mav fair around FTD? I was very tempted by one myself recently and want something a bit lighter for endurance racing next summer.

Quite suprised to see one on FTD as soon as we arrived, and pondered if they'd always been there, but I'd never noticed them before. Perhaps not.

I think that we have been missing the point slightly. It really irritates me people who decide not to wear a helmet when riding off road because it is so selfish. My logic goes like this, if you fall off and hit your head on a rock without a helmet on then you are pretty much beyond caring for yourself. What about the poor bugger following you down the trail who comes across you sprawled out, sparked out on the floor? Who has to call the ambulance, who has to get your bike to the bottom of the trail, who has to sit with you whilst waiting for the services to arrive trying to make sure your not swollowing your tounge.

If you dont want to wear a helmet for yourself then wear it for the person who may have scrape you off the trail, it might make them a bit more sympathetic!

Head injuries are not a common part of cycling or mountainbiking

Anything to do with the significant majority wearing a helmet when riding perhaps?

And I'll ask the question again, is it just me that bounces my bonce off things? Am I a crap rider? Am I doing something wrong?

I don't think any trail centres on Forestry Commission land enforce helmet rules - they have signs saying that they 'strongly advise' people to wear helmets when cycling, but no hard rules. Not sure how they'd enforce it even if they did.

I've seen people riding Glentress and Llandegla with no helmets too, so I think it's fairly common across trail centres - most people wear helmets, a few don't. Bit silly in my opinion, but it's their choice.

Cheers. I had thought they tried to enforce it, perhaps not. And your last comment, my point entirely, hence I started this thread. Even more so because for the last longer than I can remember, I haven't seen anyone else on the trails not wearing a helmet, then today I see loads!

I'd rather feel vulnerable and avoid the accident than hope that a bit of plastic protects me when I have one thru feeling invulnerable

how do you avoid an accident??

Glad you admit to feelingvulnerabke, try wearing a lid and you might not need to. Also, its hardly just a piece of plastic, more a highly designed piece of safety equipment.

I'd rather feel vulnerable and avoid the accident

Accidents are, by their very nature, unavoidable.

CFH - you attitude and the conclusions you draw show me that you simply do not understand the risks involved or how to assess them. Do you wear a helmet in your car? More likely to get a head injury there.

Further to the above, if you knew me, you would know my approach to risk management. You do not, so you do not. Do not presume to comment on it.

I have had a couple of headbangers one of which cracked the helmet through. Did it save my life? Probably not but it undoubtedly avoided a few eggs and maybe some stitches.

NB the lesser crash was outside my house after riding home with SPDs for the first time...Toppled over while shouting **** and headbutted the next door neighbour's wall

Thats enough for me to carry on wearing one

2wheelsg00d - Member

I think that we have been missing the point slightly. It really irritates me people who decide not to wear a helmet when riding off road because it is so selfish. My logic goes like this, if you fall off and hit your head on a rock without a helmet on then you are pretty much beyond caring for yourself. What about the poor bugger following you down the trail who comes across you sprawled out, sparked out on the floor? Who has to call the ambulance, who has to get your bike to the bottom of the trail, who has to sit with you whilst waiting for the services to arrive trying to make sure your not swollowing your tounge.

If you dont want to wear a helmet for yourself then wear it for the person who may have scrape you off the trail, it might make them a bit more sympathetic!

But the same could be said of any form of body protection. Surely it's actually [i]more[/i] selfish to adopt radoggairs approach - to "[i]ride as hard and as fast as i can[/i]".

Good point 2wheelsg00d. Why is it so hard to wear a helmet?

2wheelsg00d

And it really annoys me that people like you want to tell me what to do on the back of such emotive illogical blether!

The evidence simply does not support your position - infact there is some evidence that not only do helmet wearers have more injury causing accidents but that they actually have higher rates of head injury.

Risk compensation it is known as and is a real observed phenomenon

Ah, were you at the bike wash at about 3pm mboy, with a chap on a Santa Cruz of some sort (looked a bit like a Superlight)?

Aye, T'was me...

Yeah, bike was great so far. To be fair, FTD isn't going to be the biggest challenge of any bike, but it was good fun nonetheless. I think the fact it's fairly light (not weighed it yet, but got to be circa 27lb) and climbs the technical stuff well helped.

Quite suprised to see one on FTD as soon as we arrived, and pondered if they'd always been there, but I'd never noticed them before. Perhaps not.

Sorry, you've lost me there... What had always been there?

CFH - have a think about this. You are telling me what to do without knowing me but getting very huffy because I say its clear to me you do not understand the risks of bicycle riding and how to assess them.

You obviously feel strongly about this but your position is ludicrous from my point of view - based on a very poor understanding of the science and of the risks involved.

Rather authoritarian of you as well.

But the same could be said of any form of body protection. Surely it's actually more selfish to adopt radoggairs approach - to "ride as hard and as fast as i can".

huh!! i hate being selfish, enjoying my riding.

*note to self* - slow down and stop having fun

One of the reasons I dont wear a helmet is that I do ,typically,a 40 mile round trip on the road to get to my local off road. I feel a lot safer without one as my hearing ,sans vented polystyrene hat, is a lot more acute and getting a bit of extra warning of approaching traffic MAY PREVENT an accident( always better)
Also I ride fairly low and not having an extra 300g on my neck makes me less tired and distracted- again less tiredness- less likelyhood of a mistake.
I have to say, I'd never dream of offering a self righteous view of what others have on their nappers ( even if it was a really bad mullet) but that doesn't stop some folk from making unasked -for comments, so if you see me up the Pentlands, please resist the urge, OK?

Note to radoggair, MTFU and ride without a helmet

its clear to me you do not understand the risks of bicycle riding and how to assess them

Ever ridden with me? Ever seen me riding a bike? No? Thought not.

Sorry, you've lost me there... What had always been there?

Hehe, sorry. Quite suprised seeing a Maverick around the Chase, as I say, I was just pondering the pros and cons of buying one this weekend. It did look better in the flesh than the photos oddly, I think it's the jauntly angle everyone takes bike photos from.

TJ

Risk assessment for the simples

1. Identify the hazards:
A : cracking your skull open
2.Decide who might be harmed
A: a cyclist
3.Evaluate the risk( potential to cause harm) and decide on the precautions
A: med/high. Wear a helmet
4.Record your findings and implement them
A: always wear a helmet
5:Review
A: crashed, it hurt really bad but survived. Continue wearing my helmet

CFH - My point is simply that what you have said on this thread shows that you do not understand. I don't need to have met you to know this as it is so obvious from your posting.

Raddogair.

Many ways to risk assess and as you know that is just piffle what you wrote

medium to high risk wear a helmet - I do. When the risk is low - ( wandering around the countryside on easy trails) then I don't

Note to radoggair, MTFU and ride without a helmet

Surely you meant a 😉 on the end

If not, i'm as man as i can get ( not that very), and if you ever seen me ride you'd see i'm quite on the limit on most sections and would never not wear a helmet to 'look cool'

I drive that very differently to the other two. Your point is?

To be fair, I think that is actually his point. He rides differently and inhibits his fun when not wearing a helmet. I wear pads and full face when required, so perhaps that's similar.

Many ways to risk assess and as you know that is just piffle what you wrote

Really!! please inform me of some more. This is the way both my company ( the biggest hospitality company in the UK) and the HSE both risk assess.

Better tell them there doing it a different way to TJ, that'll sort them out

P.s. its not piffle, its simply a PART of a real risk assessment.

If you are genuinely concerned about protecting your head you should be wearing A HELMET ie a full face motorcycle helmet ( although even these are not very effective in direct impacts above 30 mph.
What is commonly referred to as a cycle 'helmet' has little or no equivalence ( except maybe to Dumbo's magic feather)

Do you really do risk assessment like this?

TJ

Risk assessment for the simples

1. Identify the hazards:
A : cracking your skull open

Cracking your skull open is not a hazard - the hazard is what you land on

2.Decide who might be harmed
A: a cyclist

3.Evaluate the risk( potential to cause harm) and decide on the precautions
A: med/high.] Wear a helmet

Justify this action and your conclusions that it medium high?

4.Record your findings and implement them
A: always wear a helmet

why - no evidence to support your view

5:Review
A: crashed, it hurt really bad but survived. Continue wearing my helmet

You have not assessed the person doing the activity - an experienced cautious person is less at risk than an inexperience overenthusiastic person

You have not assessed the location/ a smooth grassy field is a rather lower risk that a rocky steep narrow path.

It is perfectly possible to produce a realistic risk assessment for mountainbiking that shows high risk - but equally some is low risk.

I Know several differnt ways to assess risk.
Some MTBing is high risk - helmet and body armour please
some is medium risk - helmet please
some is low risk - no helmet required

Do you seriously think that wandering along a smooth grassy path well within my capabilities I am at high / medium risk of head injury?

Lol!

Cap'n Flashys cravat too tight then?

It's a complex issue, not made any less so by the irate silliness on display...

I wear a helmet, alway have, always will. Broken three helmets in past two years- clearly no where near as competent as all those who don't need to wear theirs

some is low risk - no helmet required

So why, in your first post, did you say you were in a high risk situation with no helmet?

Can we combine the bike and chat forums and just call them 'the same old dull arguments involving at the same people forum'?

rich - thats not what I said. Have another read.

I said that if I found myself on a technical bit of track when I had no helmet I would go very cautiously - thus reducing the risk to an accceptable level.

Its really not rocket science - simple risk assessment and [i]informed[/i] choice made by adults is the key here.

Mountainbiking is a broad church and includes many types of people and riders.

A hazard is the likelyhood of an event to cause harm, it is not what you land on/hit/ride into.

In this case the Hazard is the likleyhood of an as yet to be determined sequence of events that may or may not result in injury from the events not reaching a satisfactory outcome.

[i]i.e.[/i] If I ride this trail and it goes well, I'll be fine. If however I crash what are the likely outcomes?

To mitigate said hazards protection methods must be employed; and the best way of preventing head injury that is currently available other than eliminating the risk all together (not riding) is to use an item of safety equipment that is designed to reduce head injuries, in other words a Helmet.

Get you definitions of a hazard correct before you start going on about them.

There is also a school of thought developing within industrial risk assessment that there is no such thing as an accident, only an incident caused by incorrectly assessing the risks and failure to mitigate such risks - loosely phrased as incidents happen because people don't do things correctly.

Oh an wear a helmet, it ain't big and it ain't clever not to.

Another informed choice by adults is to smoke, everyone knows the likelyhood of contracting a form of cancer associated with smoking is a highly probable outcome, but people still persist to smoke, they're clever too aren't they! Only the medical treatment front, in some cases treatment is being refused/postponed until "patients" improve their lifestyle. Something along those lines is certain to happen eventually when it come to what are essentialy dangerous sporting activities.

The 'broad church' analogy is fitting
Most churches also have an unfounded belief in the power of their religion to save.

steve b - thankyou - Showing TJ is just a..........

experienced or not? makes a huge difference

Not really, you may have 50 years experience on a bike, doesn't make you less likely to have an accident

Justify this action and your conclusions that it medium high?

i dont have to justify this, crashing your bike happens on a daily basis compared to say, falling out an aeroplane and generally, whether your aware of it or not, your head will come in to contact with the ground.

why - no evidence to support your view

well its my view for a start, and plenty of people who have hurt there head would support this. If every risk assessment requires scientific proof they would never get complete, but then you know this

again - no evidence.

Wrong, it was me who crashed so there is evidence.

Simple as this TJ.IF you decide when on your tandem journeys not to wear a lid and harm comes to you or your riding friend, then thats fine, but dont expect me to sympathise with you when this does

I haven't read any more than the title and first post of this thread (no point) so forgive me if I've missed something (doubt it v. much). anyway, I often don't wear a helmet while I ride, whether it's on my Roadbike, XC, DH or BMX is irrelevant.
today I cracked my lid off a tree almost hard enough to knock me off my bike while leaning in on a fast but tight corner, if I hadn't been wearing it I wouldn't have hit the tree at all. 😕

No one seems to be considering the effect of a simple impact of the head on the ground. There have been any number of instances of individuals dying after confronting yobs, or during fights in the street. In virtually every case the person has suffered a single punch, but died after, as a result of their head hitting a kerbstone. Explain, please, how a head hitting the ground after a punch is different to a head hitting the the ground after a bike goes sideways. Every time I've hit the deck on a bike my head has had some sort of contact with the ground, last time at walking pace on damp tarmac. Now, I have [i]no[/i] idea what damage I may have done to my head, my left knee suffered enough, but I [i]do[/i] know, looking at the damage to the peak on my Xen, that I would have suffered, at the very least, severe lacerations to my left temple, probably requiring hospital treatment. I can't honestly imagine there is anybody out there who would voluntarily suffer head trauma rather than wear a crash hat. Or maybe some people just get an adrenaline rush from the risk. I do know that hitting the deck on rough stony ground at 15-20mph is going to be even more damaging than my impact at 5mph. A fractured skull is a fractured skull, no matter how it's aquired. Hey, but it's your choice, think of it as evolution in action, nature's way of culling the clumsy or stupid. I'm not that stupid.

Steve - you need to sort that confusion. A hazard cannot be a likelyhood

The likelihood or incidence depends on other factors.

There are many systems of risk assessment - I know of several and have been trained professionally to assess risk.

There is also a school of thought developing within industrial risk assessment that there is no such thing as an accident, only an incident caused by incorrectly assessing the risks and failure to mitigate such risks - loosely phrased as incidents happen because people don't do things correctly.

Yup

But being Brits we LOVE to blame everything on accidents... It makes us feel all nostalgic and invulnerable, the idea that "things that just happen for no apparent reason"... Haha. Christ, I love teaching people about hazards and risks and how to minimise them (sad I know!), cos their faces are a picture when you ram home to them the cause and effect of what they do, and how their negligence has the capability to cause severe harm!

TJ, I see your argument, you make a good point. But I think it's been argued before, and I agree on this one, why when something such as an MTB helmet is so unobtrusive (lets face it, all decent MTB helmets these days, you hardly notice you're wearing them if they fit correctly in the first place!) not wear it anyway? Even if the risk is low, when it is so easy to minimise that risk even further, why would you not do so?

And that is my main point!

if I hadn't been wearing it I wouldn't have hit the tree at all.

Best not wear a lid ever then GW, even when racing DH, based upon your own experience of it causing more harm than good! 😉

From the Oxford English Dictionary->

"Hazard is the potential to cause harm; risk on the other hand is the likelihood of harm (in defined circumstances, and usually qualified by some statement of the severity of the harm). "

[url= http://www.agius.com/hew/resource/hazard.htm ]Check here if you don't believe me[/url]

My bad but you get the point, a Hazard can potentially cause harm if a risk is not mitigated.

mboy, I think my first post gives an answer to your point.

Go on one last post

Raddogair - you really think experience has no bearing on how likely you are to crash? Apart from that I thought you were talking about the general situation and replied thus - if you're talking about a specific then we are at cross purposes.

GW - no need to red the whole thread - its the usual arguments.

Xipe - you need to look at your technique 😉 - seriously in 40 yrs of offraod biking I have never hit my head apart from once on a branch when wearing a helmet - I attribute some of that to Judo and breakfalling and protecting your head - active / passive safety again.

mboy - I find helmets uncomfortable and sweaty and inconvenient and I'd rather ride without one.

But I think it's been argued before

No, really?!