[Closed] Riding MoD land in the South.... Words of warning!

Do people actually know what is and what is not MoD Land? My experience suggests NO!

Been discussed here already [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/riding-on-military-land-farnborough-aldershot-areas ]prior thread[/url]

Do people actually know what is and what is not MoD Land? My experience suggests NO!

It's difficult to tell. I've been escorted off of land by the MOD which was very clearly marked on the OS as being a perimeter path outside of the boundary.

As far as I'm aware the MoD temporally commandeered this common land during the war for training purposes.

Unfortunately they forgot to hand it back.

As long as people are sensible and avoid any obvious military exercises I don't see why it can't be shared.

Do not go anywhere where there are red flags!! It might not be live firing (specific ranges for that) but there will be flare firing/schmoolies and blank firing going off. Plus someone stooging through an ex goes down badly if you're the poor sod running the ex!

Drop zones aren't obvious either; you don't want a one tonne container landing on you at 18fps! It hurts!

Stick to byways/bridleways on MoD land and you'll be fine. The chimps near me who ride their mx bikes are going to get everyone banned soon.....

It's not just mountain bikers that need to keep away from the military training. I was on the Range Path on Salisbury Plain, an MRX was on and the red flags up (live fire), but the dog walkers were still straying off the path and letting their dogs interfere with the teaching going on. If I was the officer I would have got very angry!

The issue is that people assume that training areas are unused unless real bullets are flying. The reality is often very different.

If armed forces risk assessments have to include biffer IT professionals randomly riding anywhere there will be no UK training areas that are viable for training that includes any form of ammunition or Pyro.

I would suggest that all unofficial users need to wind their necks in and allow the people who might one day face real incoming fire the opportunity to train properly.

This so makes me laugh. Why on earth does the public being on the land make any difference to the squadies training?

Our local riding spot - the pentlands has a fair amount of army training on it and no significant restrictions on who can go where. I have ridden right thru a night exercise when on a night ride. Perfectly legitimately and with no complaints

i don't get how its got to this stage down there, as i ride on M0D land here in the south east(Essex)and here we have no conflict what so ever and we have the whole of 5th airmobile brigade stationed here(paras,etc) it's not hard just don't go anywhere that has red flags or is marked off with tape and if you do accidently stray be polite and leave as quickly as possible simples 🙂

opps double post

TJ

if you don't understand what's going on, stay clear. especially on SPTA.

It might not appear to be dynamic but many of the exercise conditions will require no third parties present.

Some 'specialist' trades might not appreciate your presence either.....

The Training Area lies within the Pentland Hills Regional Park and as such there are numerous tracks and undefined footpaths for walkers. The area is popular with locals and visitors to Edinburgh.

Live firing is restricted to the Live Firing Range at Castlelaw. Red flags (daytime) and red lamps (night-time) are used when firing is taking place. The public are not allowed into the Danger Area. The Firing Range is clearly demarcated by a fence.

Horse riding is now allowed on specified routes across the training area. These routes have been agreed with the British Horse Society (Scotland) and the Pentland Hills Regional Park. The routes allow riders to explore this area whilst minimising any conflict between horses and troop activity.

Please remember that dry training (Blank firing, smoke and pyrotechnics) will still occur in the training area so riders must expect sudden movement and noises. It is advised that riders wear fluorescent clothing to make themselves more visible to soldiers, see "Related pages/documnts" for Safety & Access Restrictions.

TJ. Please, don't wade in once more to a subject where you have VERY limited experience. Not all training areas are the same. Your local area largely undertakes blank firing. Many are for LIVE firing which is slightly different with different risks so nothing like whatever you blundered through. Different equipment means different risks to the public and the soldier.

Good point. Not all areas are the same. Or have the same use.

I am confused about MODs stance from previous Hankley thread. Stats were quoted regarding MOD usage especially of middle section by permanent buildings that indicated very high usage for training. And yet they have just used the area as a film set. Is this training usage or revenue generating usage?

Is this a dog mess issue that has merely escalated out of hand?

Magazine photo looks like Pirbright ranges - do the Tunnel Trolls have an update there?

I've never had a problem with squadies and ride MOD land a lot, if I see them I turn round or ask them if it's ok to ride through, they've always been fine. I do nightrides elsewhere though as common sense tells me that having 900 lumens darting around might be a little disruptive!

The MoD attempts to generate revenue using the facilities it has, so filming can take place across the estate. It is quite possible to book a few days of filming between training exercises - just good use of resources.

Basically, the MOD can do whatever they like, but there's no way they can stop everyone, and everybody knows it. There simply isn't the manpower or the money. They cannot fence off an area such as Tunnel Hill, because it has legal rights of way going through it, and not even the MOD can block those off, which basically leaves the whole area wide open.

For everyones info - The live firing areas are fenced off. You've gotta be a bloody idiot to cross those fences at any time. I'd imagine even the army aren't allowed to use live ammo where there's a chance of public access. i.e. outside those fenced and patrolled areas.

This so makes me laugh. Why on earth does the public being on the land make any difference to the squadies training?

Quite a lot actually. This time TJ, you really should butt out! I'm sure Shortcut or Pants can explain the situation better than me.

So, are the Trolls gonna stop riding there then? Being as they are a good part of the 'problem' ?
Are Gorrick going to go elsewhere??
Is AYTE on this year?

The problem is that some riders are acting to the detriment of others.

Surprise, surprise.

GB

The article is somewhat misleading; the main photo shows a rider just outside the perimeter of Ash/Pirbright ranges, which is a live firing area.

But the problem we are encountering at the moment is a threat to rigidly enforce the bylaws on the non-live firing areas (Tunnel Hill, PorridgePot Hill, Caesar's Camp, Frith Hill, Minley, Hawley etc etc) - i.e. to prevent MTBers riding anything other than fireroads.

Historically use of singletrack in this area has been tolerated, but this looks likely to change.

It's actually very simple TJ.
It isn't yours.

It would be a shame if an agreement can't be reached. I started my MTB career ( 😉 ) on Ash Ranges / Tunnel Hill over 20 years ago 😯 Still ride there regularly and am courteous when I happen to meet forces people on exercises.

The area attracts lots more people now as it's a race venue and also is obviously associated with the trolls. I guess the Army patience has been stretched too far by a small minority (not necessarily associated with racers/trolls I hasten to add).

Living close to Caesars Camp, I have noticed a large number of signs going up about MTBers. I thought it was about just being responsible to others you meet on the tracks.

However booting the MTBers off will almost be impossible. There are so many access points, so much is legal that shutting it down is not possible. Also the same restrictions apply to walkers, they are far more vocal and far more angry.

The whole element is a balancing act. The army are allowed to use the area for training, on the implied understanding that it is available for others to use. Remove the access from the public and this balance changes and the army becomes less tolerated.

I suspect the problem is that the MoD have employed a company to manage the land and they need to understand that it is a shared resource.

The building of north shore stuff on tunnel hill a while ago seems too have pissed off the mod, and now they could ban all mtbs.
Theres something on the gorrickk website at the mo asking people not too ride there at the moment.
the bylaws also say you shouldn't walk dogs on their land as well.

The general public are allowed on MoD land as a privilege not a right which people seem to forget and Military training takes president and everything else comes second to that even the Conservation groups etc.

The problem is mainly with dog crap, fly tippers, motor bikes and mountain bikers along with disruption to training, which is all governed by bylaws. Which are going to be enforced more robustly by the Wardens and Civil/Military Police.

Those signs on Caesars and other areas were put up to give plain and simple info about Army training and simple rules when encountering Soldiers etc.

Have a look @ [url= http://http://trailactiongroup.co.uk/ ]TAG[/url] which has been set up to help matters.

TJ is providing a valuable training opportunity to our troops by night riding through exercises! It's only a matter of time before the Taliban are employing tandems equipped with a rear gunner! If they're not doing so already

I pass soldiers carrying big guns in the Pentlands all the time. They're always really friendly and don't seem to mind sharing the land at all. I'm sure plenty of them are bikers.

mbr article sounds a bit sensationalist. i ride on MOD land and the general rule seems to be we pretend not to see the soldiers and they pretend not to see us. unless you're an idiot darting between soldiers you shouldn't affect much. they ride the land on dirt bikes sometimes anyway.
don't ride towards gunfire (duh), don't go in when flags are flying. i've been directed away a couple of times perfectly politely and just got the hell out of there.
anyone know if there's a website that tells you when exercises are happening? perhaps not for security reasons. it's a pisser sometimes when you get there and find flags up, but remember it's their land and there's still unflagged areas nearby to ride.. i really hope there isn't a massive clampdown coming because i'd be sad to lose some of my favourite "remote" feeling riding in the south east.

That chap they interviewed seems a bit of a knob. Compensation for the noisy nights? You moved into an area where the military train FFS! Made to feel like a trespasser? Why do you think that is?
This sense of entitlement will not help MTBers at all.

it's a pisser sometimes when you get there and find flags up, but remember it's their land and there's still unflagged areas nearby to ride..

The flagged areas aren't really the problem here. The unflagged areas ("Managed Access" on OS maps) are where the bylaws are about to be enforced.

anyone know if there's a website that tells you when exercises are happening? perhaps not for security reasons.

Has been investigated but not looking likely in the areas mentioned in the article.

This sense of entitlement will not help MTBers at all.

That's certainly true. Negotiating to find a workable compromise is likely to be in everyone's long-term interest, even the MOD's.

But the problem we are encountering at the moment is a threat to rigidly enforce the bylaws on the non-live firing areas (Tunnel Hill, PorridgePot Hill, Caesar's Camp, Frith Hill, Minley, Hawley etc etc) - i.e. to prevent MTBers riding anything other than fireroads.

Thing is - Is this really the threat? I've not seen anyone making this threat, I've not seen the MOD or Landmarc making this threat, the only thing I've seen is a threat to close the car park on Hankley common if people didn't stop their dogs shitting everywhere - other than that its all rumours and supposition, and 'furious discussion on internet forums' about threatened enforcement of byelaws without any actual meat.

I may be mistaken, I may have missed it, so if I am, can anyone PLEASE post me to anywhere where the MOD have [b]actually[/b] threatened to restrict bike access on the area, as I've not found it yet.

Yes, it really is the threat - it has come from discussions with the MOD.

There isn't any definitive statement on the web yet as far as I know, although Gorrick's website has something about it in their round-up of the recent Frith Hill race, and Gorrick aren't known for their scaremongering.

The Hankley car park issue is not directly related.

Rode Porridgepot this morning. There are still just the normal 'polite notices' for MTBers saying be courteous to the squaddies you meet and leave an area if asked to. I see patrols etc. about once every month and never at the weekend. They usually wave me through or I turn right around. Same at Tunnel Hill and Frith

I spend around 4-5 hours a week there and see dozens of dog walkers but hardly any bikers. I'd have thought any problems with interrupting exercises lie elsewhere.

Wahts that wooshing noise - thats right - the point I made being missed completely. 🙄

pants - Member

The general public are allowed on MoD land as a privilege not a right which people seem to forget and Military training takes president and everything else comes second to that even the Conservation groups etc.

This is the problem. Here the public have a right to be on MOD land on the whole

Because of the different access laws here the military are used to public access on the land. Thus there is no issue.

Its all about the differing attitudes towards the use of the land. A spirit of sharing and co-operation that seems to be very difficult for some folk to manage

Live firing bits on Dartmoor are not fenced off. No proper rights of way as in public footpaths or bridleways but right to roam access for walkers and horsies means you *could* be a dunce and wander through red flags. But everyone knows weekends are safe and weekdays not necessarily.

We used to use blank rounds and 'big bang' explosives on exercise without red flags even when I was in the cadets as a fifteen year old though, and lots of them. I can well imagine horses and dawgs going postal finding themselves in the middle of an exercise.

As a daft cadet I probably wasn't stealth enough to disguise myself well enough to be a suprise to anyone though. Apparently those yellow flowers you find at Penhale Sands are [i]not[/i] an appropriate disguise for the L98 cadet rifle, even if there are all sorts of nice slots to post them in. 😳

Wahts that wooshing noise - thats right - the point I made being missed completely.

pants - Member
The general public are allowed on MoD land as a privilege not a right which people seem to forget and Military training takes president and everything else comes second to that even the Conservation groups etc.

This is the problem. Here the public have a right to be on MOD land on the whole

Because of the different access laws here the military are used to public access on the land. Thus there is no issue.

Its all about the differing attitudes towards the use of the land. A spirit of sharing and co-operation that seems to be very difficult for some folk to manage

There is an issue and the public do not have right to be there! That is why it could be closed off! What are you on? Irresponsible users are the biggest problem, if all were like the majority, responsible, then no problem.

With the issue of sharing, not difficult just need to come to an agreement of some sorts.

I answer to others Q's some riders were stopped last night on Caesars Camp Aldershot.

😀

What are you on?

MOD land in Scotland - it's all a lot more civilised up here, as you'd expect when we have so much of the taxpayer's money sloshing around keeping us all in style.

Pants - "here" being in Scotland where the public do have the right to be on the land and there is no issue with this.

When the military know they have to share then they act accordingly.

Original article takes a bit of a childish/entitled stance IMO.
Been illegal for years, locals have ridden it anyway (breaking the law) now law is being enforced, make a fuss...

Sound like spoilt kids to me. There's plenty of decent riding round there anyway.

Maybe they don't want our soldiers to be well-trained and would rather they lose their battles/die just for the sake of a weekend bike ride... 😯

Most MoD land is publicly owned and as such the MoD should allow access whenever is safe to do so. Some ranges will never be open to the public due to the nature of their use (large unexploded ordnance) and rightly so.

However lets not get too much subservient cap doffing going on, this is land owned by us all and is a great recreational asset. We just* need to find the right balance for access.

* - easy, right ? 😉

I think I've said this in previous discussions; I understood that the Army was scaling back it's operations and training in and around Aldershot, Ash Vale and Bagshot because it wasn't suitable for their requirements, and moving much of it to the SPTA. Play nicely everyone and the issue may have gone in a few years!

[quote=awh said]I think I've said this in previous discussions; I understood that the Army was scaling back it's operations and training in and around Aldershot, Ash Vale and Bagshot because it wasn't suitable for their requirements, and moving much of it to the SPTA. Play nicely everyone and the issue may have gone in a few years!

Good point, any inside info from our Army contingent ?

I always find the Gurkhas on exercise on Barossa Common on my way to Swinley to be very friendly!

Why does the modern army need all this land nowadays, anyway?

It is nothing like the requirements at the start of the 2nd world war when the MOD requisitioned loads of common land and then failed to yield it after the war.

With the army shrinking at the rate it is and regimental identity being lost through consolidation, why not just concentrate training in a few areas around the country and maybe build some terrain that actually represents the areas the troops are training to go to.

Plus we could avoid actually sending troops into areas where the likelihood of them actually winning anything is next-to-nothing - i.e. Afghanistan, or pretty much anywhere where there is going to be guerrilla fighting against any strongly religious faction that believes that a virgin-filled paradise awaits for them on the other side.

Enforcing these access rules is not exactly going to endear the MOD/army to the public, from whom it will rely on for its' future recruits.

When the military know they have to share then they act accordingly.

When the military IN YOUR SMALL EXPERIENCE are using blanks and not lobbing live rounds about, they share. Not all ranges are equal and there are many areas of Scotland you are not allowed to just wander across when you see fit. Get over it.

Why does the modern army need all this land nowadays, anyway?

To exercise on. The modern Army can cover a lot of ground so needs areas to exercise on.

With the army shrinking at the rate it is and regimental identity being lost through consolidation, why not just concentrate training in a few areas around the country and maybe build some terrain that actually represents the areas the troops are training to go to.

When the shinking Army you can't see (in Germany) comes back to the UK you won't see any reduction under your nose.

When the military IN YOUR SMALL EXPERIENCE are using blanks and not lobbing live rounds about, they share.

Again, the areas of contention here are NOT primarily the live firing ranges. It is the previously unenforced bylaws on the non-live areas that are under threat of enforcement.

STW sorts out defence!
The army may be pretty small at the moment but it won't stay that way. The MOD are basically a private landowner how they're funded is irrelevant, we should be very grateful for any access at all. If some riders weren't behaving like dicks, this wouldn't even be an issue. I don't think the army GAF about peeing off a few mtbers who are too old to recruit. They need to train, it's their land and to suggest that they should allow people to do what the **** they want on it just for goodwill is frankly retarded.

When the shinking Army you can't see (in Germany) comes back to the UK you won't see any reduction under your nose.

it is still a shed-load smaller than it was during the 2nd WW, when the MOD decided that it needed all that land.

The Army is shrinking along with coming back from Germany and alike, so more troops in the UK and they wish to train on MoD land, so the training areas are getting a lot busier as it's cheaper to train at home, which is their office on a daily basis.

How would you like your office, working environment shat on, walked through, ridden through etc?

It's all rather funny really how peeps think they have the given right to F@ck about on MoD land and disrupt training!!

The Army needs all it's different training areas, as the terrain not the climate have a lot to offer with flat to the mountains, which the Army is on Ops at the moment all over the world!!!!!

[quote=wrecker said] The MOD are basically a private landowner how they're funded is irrelevant, we should be very grateful for any access at all...... I don't think the army GAF about peeing off a few mtbers who are too old to recruit.... it's their land and to suggest that they should allow people to do what the **** they want on it just for goodwill is frankly retarded.

I disagree, the MoD are funded by public taxation, that's you and me. I'm not suggesting that we all stick two fingers up and organise critical mass events through exercises 🙂 But the land is publicly owned and should be available for responsible access when safe to do so.

[quote=pants said]It's all rather funny really how peeps think they have the given right to F@ck about on MoD land and disrupt training!!

To be fair I think only one person on this thread has got close to this mindset.

Actually TJ, the number of troops in Scotland is already increasing. Currently, there are about 3,000 regulars and perhaps a couple of thousand TA. 800 Engineers are moving to Kinloss this summer and major units from Germany could find themselves north of the border - perhaps 10,000 regulars and reserves before the end of the decade.

The Army needs a lot of space. Obviously, it requires room to manoeuvre armoured vehicles and to exercise with fast air or aviation. However, it also needs smaller areas near barracks for minor exercises, field craft lessons, navigation practise eg Pentlands, Porridge Hill, Ceasar's Camp etc. Also, there needs to be variety in order to avoid troops becoming familiar with the areas - otherwise it quickly fails to be challenging or realistic.

But the land is publicly owned and should be available for responsible access when safe to do so.

[quote=wrecker said] But the land is publicly owned and should be available for responsible access when safe to do so.
Let's see how that stands up if you go along to Whitehall and expect a coffee in the pillared hall, or Westminster expecting a pint and a seat to the show. Maybe queenie should be making us cuppas as Buckingham castle. How about going to faslane for a go on the boats?

I'm taking about common land with trees, tracks, some wildlife. When the army aren't there then it's pretty quiet apart from people walking dogs, runners and (up until now) cyclists. Equating that to popping into Buck House for a cuppa doesn't stack up IMO.

But the land is publicly owned and should be available for responsible access when safe to do so.

except that a lot of this land was common land originally, not for the exclusive use of the MOD.

I don't think the army GAF about peeing off a few mtbers who are too old to recruit.

funnily enough though it is likely that those middle aged people are raising children, who absorb influence from their parent, who might be anti-MOD based on how they were treated once on MOD land...

look at how many people despise the police unfairly based on having been exposed to traffic cops.

The army may be pretty small at the moment but it won't stay that way

why is it going to get bigger?

If anything there will be less troops in future.

Good debate and some closet squaddies on here too 😉

No. More troops in the UK and many more TA who will train on weekends. Expect to see much more military activity in the UK at a training area near you.

More troops in the UK

yep, more troops in the UK but what are the recruitment rates like compared to the number being got rid of?

And still it is nothing like the number of troops or training requirement of WW2, so why need as much land?

The army has been up to strength for the last 10 years, so no probs with recruitment as far as I know.
I'm pretty sure the army/navy/marines/RAF will manage without a few kids who didn't join because mummy and daddy sulked after not being allowed to trespass. I don't think they'd be the ideal recruits.
The military has got bigger and smaller throughout its existence and will continue to do so.

I'm taking about common land with trees, tracks, some wildlife

Just because they are green doesn't make them Army, all the armed forces use MoD land for training (RAF, RN and the Boat People(RM)). It is immaterial how the land was aquired in the past, it is MoD land now and you have to live with it.

The Govt's plan is to increase the TA by about the same number of regular posts being made redundant. Therefore, the Army will still be around 100,000 troops. 30,000 TA will be using training areas over weekends. Also, the MOD has no problem with recruitment. Some jobs have a 18 mth waiting list.

As explained above. The Army needs a lot of land. Modern forces are much more mobile and lethal than WW2 units.

And still it is nothing like the number of troops or training requirement of WW2, so why need as much land?

I doubt we'd be able to explain it to you. After all, you seem to think that the training requirements of a 21st Century military are on a par with those over 70 years ago. Training now is vastly different to then and the troops are training far more than they did in WW2, so they need the space and the variation.

If its common land - then the public have a right to use it for recreation on horseback or foot already - thats established law, this is about using bikes on it, which is different.

Thats the way it is, if you don't like the fact that bikes are treated differently, then go and speak to your MP.

In the meantime, I'm still yet to see any proof of some sort of "grand crackdown" against normal riders using the MOD land responsibly.

[quote=Zulu-Eleven said]In the meantime, I'm still yet to see any proof of some sort of "grand crackdown" against normal riders using the MOD land responsibly.

Well I don't think the Army have sent press reports in 😉 But pants mentioned (at the top of this page) some riders being spoken to on Caesars Camp last night.

"spoken to"

Do we have any more information than that? where they spoken to after being seen riding in with shovels? going for a nightride? normal XC riding? digging jumps?

what does "spoken to" mean? - politely asked to stay out of an area where there was an exercise going on, or told "be off with you or we'll prosecute you"?

All these things make a big difference and make it easy for us as a community to jump on an outrage bandwagon castigating people when actually we're talking about a landowner who has been hugely supportive of MTB'ing, hugely tolerant of us load riding pretty much anywhere we like for a long time.

[quote=Zulu-Eleven said]"spoken to"
Do we have any more information than that? where they spoken to after being seen riding in with shovels? going for a nightride? normal XC riding? digging jumps?
what does "spoken to" mean? - asked to stay out of an area where there was an exercise going on, or told "be off with you or we'll prosecute you"?
All these things make a big difference and make it easy for us as a community to jump on an outrage bandwagon castigating people when actually we're talking about a landowner who has been hugely supportive of MTB'ing, hugely tolerant of us load riding pretty much anywhere we like for a long time.

Sorry, the phrase pants used was "stopped" and no, I don't have any further info.

It would be good to know what the story is.

The army didn't seem to have a problem with me riding on MOD land today.

Basically, they were stopped and told that they are not allowed to be on here (MoD Land) and were asked to leave politely, in which they did! Enforced it is and to what degree will depend on the individuals who are stopped.

How would you like your office, working environment shat on, walked through, ridden through etc? It's all rather funny really how peeps think they have the given right to F@ck about on MoD land and disrupt training!!

I don't think that is the attitude. It's more like why should the areas be patrolled and out of date bylaws enforced when they aren't being used. By all means stronger enforcement when in use - why not red flag areas entirely when in use and allow access when not. And then clamp down on non-adherence to this rather than prohibit perfectly reasonable use such as we've enjoyed for as long as I can remember.

Edit - q to pants. Were the army actually using Caesar's camp at the time?

Might not be the attitude in your eyes, but the fact remains its Mod land and its the Armys office not yours and I am dam sure you would not like the disruption or your Boss if you did not make your target(s), no doubt a few choice words would be said!!!

Yes, they were conducting training!! And if not it, same rules apply!

a virgin-filled paradise awaits for them on the other side.

Yep, there's a whole lot of World of Warcraft lads just waiting to pander to their every whim.

Either way , The Army are the ones with fully automatic weapons .
So if they say " Sorry Son , Not today as we are playing war with the Americans/Territorials/Ghurkas etc "
I would recommend doffing ones cap and leaving via a direct route .
Or Leave TJ there alone to argue alot .

No, I wouldn't like anyone using my office while I am. But while I'm not, I'm perfectly happy for someone else to use it. I understand completely that I'd be pissed off if they messed it up before leaving but as long as it doesn't disrupt me I have no issue. Asking people to leave because active training is going on is perfectly reasonable; it's when it's not being used that I have issues.

This is bad, then?

Rachel

I'm sure you'd love it, if they shat all over it along with leaving litter in it and all manner of things!

Are MTBers responsible for large amounts of faeces on MoD land ? 😉

Bloody hell guys, stop whinging! "The MoD has a big garden that I want go and ride my bike in, but they say I can't because it's theirs." Tough titty! Why on earth should anyone in the MoD possibly have to offer justification about how the land is used and when? It's the MoD's, not yours, therefore they get to say who gets in, not you.

I think I specifically said I'd be pissed off as you rightly are. If someone used my office and trashed it I'd discuss it with them; not ban everyone else though.