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In my mind, my FS bikes are good for the feeling I get from them. My HT is very light and stiff, more than most I think. So, the main thing I feel as a positive for FS handling is the weight distribution in corners. The squish I try to push into hard corners feels lush and the bounce back out feels incredible. I don't get that from my HT unfortunately.
HT does not make me a better rider. FS does not make me a better rider.
FS feels nice because of the above.
You really believe all rear suspension does is smooth out the ride over rocks? 😯All a FS does is smooth out rocks, and there is FAR more to descending than simply handling rocks.
Have you honestly never thought about the eect rear suspension has on grip or stability?
Its a pointless question. When you ask which makes you "better" its about specificity:
If you ride a HT all the time you will become "better" at riding a HT.
If you ride a FS all the time you will get "better" at riding a FS.
There are so many various types of FS & HT that making a sweeping statement of riding HT's make you a "better" rider is non-sensical. If I ride HT all the time, then swap to a FS, then i will not ride as well on that - until, that is, I've had time on that to adapt my technique.
They're different bikes. You need different technique and skills for each. Sure, the basic techniques are similar but you have to adapt your technique to whichever bike you're on.
Think of it like this; does riding a short travel HT make you a "better" rider than a LT HT?
Does riding fully rigid make you a "better" rider than if you rode a short travel HT?
Does riding a Penny Farthing make you "better" than if you rode fully rigid?
It just doesn't make sense - subtly different techniques are required to perform the same 'skill' on different bikes. Even the size of the frame can have an effect.
Maybe. If you're riding the same stuff as you would be on a full suss, and it makes it harder to ride it, and you manage to ride it all at the same speed then it's because you've got better. But equally you might end up riding it slower.
Riding bikes makes you better, generally. Riding different bikes or different trails might also make you better by testing you differently or by allowing you to try things you might not otherwise.
I've got a ht and a fs,both with 140mm on front.
The ht feels faster.but it's slower.(that's me being slower,not the bike)
Ht does makes my technique sharper,but that's not the bike,it's me not concentrating fully sometimes.
I'd say going back and forth is good,you gain by riding both,and if you swap over regularly (1xht,1xfs and ride often you end up just riding,with imput from both.
Forgetting what bike I'm on.
That's made me better.
i'm a better rider on a HT than on a FS.
but yes, i've only really ridden HT for 15 years, with the odd ride on a FS and a six month stint (riding 6 days a week) on Gran Canaria a year or so back. towards the end of the six months i was getting more out of the FS (Rize 140) than at the start, but was still prefered my DB Alpine.
i don't know if it makes you a better rider, but i do think that you need to be a better rider on a HT compared to a FS rider if you are to hack my "local" trails.
A few things-
Yes, a hardtail develops skill in many different ways. Obvious one is line choice, but the big one for me is understanding what the bike is doing, limits of grip, knowing where the rear wheel is, what the rear wheel doing, judging how composed a landing is, timing and many many more things, manuals, bunny hops jumping, pumping, just about every bike skill. It's all about developing feel for what is going on and adjusting accordingly.
I believe that a suspension bike removes you from what is going on somewhat, if you're learning, trying to make the bike move or react in a manner you desire, you need feedback to know if it's right or wrong, the suspension removes the feedback. Also suspension makes it harder to manipulate the bike if the technique is not correct.
A hardtail promotes riding out of the saddle since you can't sit down in the rough. I see far too many people who are really weak when they stand up, then wonder why they can't throw the bike around.
I see the confidence thing of a full sus really helping, but only of technique is correct in the first place. It is pretty easy on a full sus to get the bottle to do something, do it, but do it with bad technique, then that technique becomes ingrained. Shaking bad habits is harder than learning a new skill.
Time on a bike doesn't necessarily make you a better rider. Time spent practising good technique, car park work, sessioning, thinking will make you better. Going for a ride, seat in saddle, ingraining bad technique isnt getting anyone anywhere.
/essay. Skills and all this malarky ive thought a lot about.
Yes riding a ht definitely makes me a better rider. If I spend too long on a fs then I get lazy and stop using my legs and picking lines. The ht has taught me how to use my natural pump to jump rather than relying on the suspension rebound. When I get back on the fs after riding the ht I find I flow better and pop over trail obstacles more rather than being lazy.
Well said deanfbm
Not convinced it made me a better rider. For a while it helped me push limits. I alternate between a full sus bigger bike and a long travel hardtail (that in reality is so capable) ride to ride. Thought process goes something like-
first week on full sus bike: well i did something last week just a little smaller on the hardtail so this slightly bigger jump/drop/whatever must be make-able with this bike
following week hard tail: well last week i managed it on the full suss bike and survived so it'll probably be okay on the hardtail too.
and repeat.
That was until I had a couple of recent crashes which has slowed me down somewhat. The crashes were on the 'forgiving' big bike.
That said I would agree with this too so maybe did make me a better rider:
It makes you get your bum out of the saddle rather than bobble through sections in your comfy armchair as some do on a full sus bike
I have a 140mm full suss and a hardtail that can take 140mm forks
I ride them both the same, although prefer the ht as a 69er rigid
The only reason I have a full suss is cos I can and I love the compression when exiting fast berms
I have been riding them both over the same terrain and have not even thought about line choice just because I'm on a particular bike
I just engage death grip and hang on and if I'm still on at the bottom. Bonus 8)
*I don't think I ride fast enough to notice difference in speed. The HT hooks up on bumps more so its probably slower. But I don't notice.
*I don't take different lines on different bikes - the best line is the best line
* The FS is deffo less tiring, especially on rocky terrain
* The HT feels more responsive to sprinting
* The HT can feel more stable on slow, steep ground
* The HT needs more attention in fast corners
* The FS is easier to stay balanced and grip in fast corners
Both good bikes. Nothing to complain about except my own skills limitations 😉
Do folks really sit when descending? How on earth do they stay on?
It makes you get your bum out of the saddle rather than bobble through sections in your comfy armchair as some do on a full sus bike
i'd stick my neck out and say that the second guy in the video learnt to "ride" on a FS....
stand up!!!! FFS
I don't think they 'make' you a better rider, but they enable you to learn certain skills easier ie: bunnyhops, jumps, manuals, pumping etc.
Also as it has been mentioned you cannot get away with ploughing through stuff, you need to pick your lines and pay more attention to how much grip you have.
If you want to become a better rider, get a bmx or dj bike and practice the core skills of riding.
Once you can pump, jump, manual, corner (both railing and drifting) and bunnyhop, take it to the full susser and it will be a load more fun.
You do have to pick your line a lot better on a hard tail not just grit your teeth and ride over it knowing full well your 5" of rear travel will deal with it, and you (or I) ,tend to ride a hard tail on the fork, which when I had both and went from a hard tail back to my full susser felt really weird hanging over the front.
I rode full sussers for years and have just gone back to hard tails can't really tell you why.......but there is something sexy about hard tails!!!!
no, a beer (or 3) makes you a better rider
Twas reading the paper at the weekend and hadn't realised that Hadleigh Farm is Sally Army property (and apols for being 7 years late with this).I'm not going but I presume some might get grumpy about the whole temperance thing and no beer being available?
IME helps to ride FS and HT alternately and often
FS has better grip and you can rag the rocky stuff. But you can get lazy (and on easy trails can be boring)
HT forces you to learn how to read the trail and flow better as there's less suspension to do the work for you.
After a while you ride your FS like a HT - flowy and smartly and you ride the HT like the FS - go straight at stuff and hang on...
Brooes+1
I've been riding my HT more than my FS lately; I'm much betteri on my FS as a result
you don't need both to get the best out of either. choice of bike doesn't really force you to ride a certain way, that's the rider.
So the the general consensus is yes then?
My personal opinion is that its bollocks. I've become a much better (technically and speed) rider (I think) since swapping to a FS for 90% of my riding.
My hardtail is purely used for an alternative to riding the FS. Same trails feel different on different bikes so its good, I find, to swap and change between the two. Some trails I enjoy more on the hardtail...
You can make yourself a better rider whatever you choose.
Think about what you are doing, body position. Take speed off before you get to the corner. Look up. Weight back. Heels down. Drop your wrists. Pump. Jump. Squash. Manual. Etc.
Full sus or hard tail.
Try different tyre pressures and see how different your bike feels and handles.
I've been riding hard tail for years now, but really want a mid travel bouncer, possibly even 29er.
If you want to become a better rider, get a bmx or dj bike and practice the core skills of riding.Once you can pump, jump, manual, corner (both railing and drifting) and bunnyhop, take it to the full susser and it will be a load more fun.
Not sure about this for me. Whenever I ride a mtb after a bmx it feels awful! Saddle in the way, massive flexy feeling wheels, noisy gears and suspension robbing you of all your momentum. It's mainly the saddle in the way thats the problem, even on a 16" frame. I'm considering a smaller DJ hardtail as my do it all just because of the standover!
After doing some DH racing in the HT category, I found I sped up and got cleaner. I really went for the faster over than through method. It resulted in some really fast runs on rocky trails. I just kept hoping over stuff keeping loads more speed and felt really efficient. Taking that to my full sus riding helped too.
As in my previous posts riding both frequently is best, bringing strava to the equation I have found that I ride some local trails to a plateau in terms of speed/times on the full sus then a few trips out in the HT unlocks some of the quicker lines through necessity.
I also build my HT and FS in the same way. It is no less of a bike and will go out on the same trails as the full sus.
You really believe all rear suspension does is smooth out the ride over rocks?
Have you honestly never thought about the eect rear suspension has on grip or stability?
Lol.. it's me.. of course I've thought about it!
Smoothing out the ride over rocks (and other lumpy objects obviously) has a big impact on grip and stability, of course. Up, down and along.
And yes they do of course help when landing from jumps.
It's up to you to learn how to get the best out of the tools that you have. You can do different things on different bikes. In general though, FS is more comfortable if you live somewhere rocky - that's about the only criterium I reckon.
What about somewhere rooty?
or really loose and dusty perhaps?
what about simply very muddy?
suspension should not be chosen primarily for comfort but for increased control.
didn't really learn very much tho, eh?Lol.. it's me.. of course I've thought about it!
Technique wise it took longer to master flat pedals on my HT so I say yes, it has helped my foot position at the very least.
I think so too however mistakes are highlighted more than on a full-suss. Some of these very-lightweight short travel frames may be faster over longer events. I have to say i enjoy riding a hardtail more than full-sus
When i started riding a hardtail i instantly became an awesome rider, became more attractive to girls, got a promotion at work and am now immune to HIV.
Well Fabien Barel, Nicola Vouilloz seems to only ride full sus. Make of this what you want 😉
Pushing your limits tends to help you learn. Many people find their limits more easily on a hardtail. However, if you're not pushing yourself or paying attention you probably won't learn anything.
I think it does. As does riding a cross bike and a single speed etc etc.
Riding a variety of bikes gives you a broader skills base. a single speeder climbs on his arms as much as his legs, then apply that to a geared bike and you are flying. Rigid bikes teach you to pick lines, crossers teach to ride light and smooth. Off road fixies teach you to grow the hell up and how to crash. Full sus gets you comfortable with big drops and high speed (and parting with money ) .
So I'm making the same basic point as you but I'm talking shite, love that debating style.GW - Member>Riding HT makes you look at different lines but not necessarily the ones you would use on FS so how much use that is I dunno.
that's probably 'cause you're talking shite. looking at different lines makes you look at different lines.
OK I'll clarify
What are you using as your criteria for better? The only easily quantifiable one is speed*, how fast you can get through a section, up/down/across whatever. As we're talking FS vs HT I assume it's gonna be tricky terrain so chances are FS will be the fastest form of transport outright. Whipping out your HT and looking at different lines may make you a more rounded rider but when you get back on the FS and take the fastest line ignoring how bumpy it is, how are all these new HT lines gonna help? I'm pretty sure downhillers don't recce the course on their HTs to scope out new lines when they will do the race on their FSers.
Swapping from FS to HT [i]forces[/i] you to look at different lines but you can still look around when you are on your FS. HT can help you try new stuff and learn new techniques and yeah I'd recommend it but I'm not 100% convinced all that will transfer back over to FS riding and improve you there.
Just a thought but are there any pro DHers who have never actually ridden a HT?
*you could use how much stuff you "clean", count the number of dabs etc but ask some xc or cx racers what they'd do if a section is quicker to dismount run and remount rather than riding. I reckon they'll be hitting the ejector seat.
What about somewhere rooty?
or really loose and dusty perhaps?
what about simply very muddy?suspension should not be chosen primarily for comfort but for increased control.
Obviously roots go together with rocks as being lumpy things on the trail and hence affecting how you ride. I'd have thought that was blatantly obvious, but then I've "not really learned very much" have I 🙂
Comfort and control are both benefits of FS, of course. Then again, learning to deal with less control on a HT on very rough surfaces is a skill in itself.
Not sure where you're going with the mud thing though. I don't think it makes a lot of difference if it's soft mud.
Just a thought but are there any pro DHers who have never actually ridden a HT?
it's in German, but basically tells how Frank Schneider (old world cup racer, i beleive) won the Mega Challenger race (for riders that didn't qualify for the main fianl) on a singlespeed 160mm hardtail.
Alpin - guten morgen, how's your summer going btw? 🙂
I know singlespeeders are all shades of awesome alpin but that wasn't my question 🙂
(oh and how did he get that fan belt into his rear triangle?)
Bike build counts more than rear suspension - I once rode my Global frame built up with wide bars and burly forks and I was a descending God. Built up as an XC bike with flat bars and rigid forks I'm much less confident down hills.
Bike build counts more than rear suspension - I once rode my Global frame built up with wide bars and [b]burly forks[/b] and I was a descending God. Built up as an XC bike with flat bars and [b]rigid forks[/b] I'm much less confident down hills.
So comparing HT to rigid then, not just different builds.
servus molgrips.... passt scho. 🙂
it's ok. not working too much which means more riding. just had a mini break down on Tegernsee and found some new trails.
oh, and it's 31°C today.... 🙂 balcony and beer.
It's about 17 here, windy and wet. Bugger.
I have done some new northern riding though, which was fun.
it was wet here the beginning of last week. the trails were a mud bath, but fun..... mostly.
did you sort that out with the Amt?
Still no!
I'm terrible, but it's getting so bad I have to do it this week.
F'in German red tape 🙁
🙂
Technique wise it took longer to master flat pedals on my HT so I say yes, it has helped my foot position at the very least.
So here's a can of worms (dragged over from BMX, where it's been done to death); does riding flats make you a better rider than using SPDs?