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But then if you're not interested in position why are you wanting to race? If its to challenge yourself against yourself then maybe try to find another format that is not so pressured?
BTW, as you know, I feel the same about DH racing, the actual run itself is amazing but is outweighed by the previous two weeks of feeling sick and stressed. And coming last does not help much (as I know!). 🙂
Ok, going back to the original question...the answer I would like to give you would be option B. In fact, I think I have been kidding myself that is the situation for a long time.
But when it is laid out in black and white like that, then, with all honesty, it would be option A. Definitely option A.
Does this make me a bad person?
Not at all mate, I expect that's what most race runs are like for the pros. Its about the winning that counts.
But I think you should be clear what you want from racing so that you know whether racing is what you want. IYKWIM.
Personally I want to come first, I want to be the best, the trouble is I'm rubbish and find the whole experience massively stressful so get no reward from it. For that reason, I'm out (of DH racing). 🙂
Hey Jo, I've really been interested in this thread so far but not sure whether my comments will help any or not.
I've just spent the weekend at diva descent - not sure if youve heard of the event or whether you would be interested but its training delivered to all females by female DH pros and then a race. All ability levels entered and the idea is to prompt more women into the DH racing scene.
Just wanted to make some observations from my experience of the weekend particularly as it was my first ever race. There were some awesome riders there, a lass that had won north west champs I think and others that had done many races who proper pinned it.
Those that raced the best were having the most fun and were relaxed so it seemed to me. there was a clear attitude from every lass of wanting to just have an awesome day, chat with others and make a few new riding pals. Now it doesnt sound like you are too bothered about the social element but personally having been v.competitive in the past in other sports (only at county level) I now consider that the best sports persons are those that do it just cos they like it and for no other reason.
My husband is one of the best riders I know, I doubt he will ever compete cos he 'just wants to ride his bike and have fun'. I think it would be pretty decent on some of the amateur circuits but thats not what he rides his bike for. He's the sort of guy that just rides smooth and effortlessly but then he'll pop a no hander or some other equally impressive trick! He's ridden bikes all his life and clearly has the natural ability but to be honest it seems mostly about his mindset. In life in general he's a happy guy, pretty child and takes things in his stride, you can see this in his biking for sure. he just quietly gets on with it.
I broke my collar bone last year and prior to that I used to get pretty annoyed if I wasnt pushing my limits and trying new things on a bike (I'm not talking major big stuff but big stuff for me). My aim these days is just to chill and ride safe and this in itself has improved my riding...don't think I would have thought about entering DH races this time last year.
I came 22nd out of 40 racers yesterday...the course was wet, rooty and rocky with some tough little sections. I was so pleased with my efforts and its a great feeling coming away with that and not thinking, shoot, wish I could have done better cos thats just stressful and uses too much emotional energy. Few years back though when i was in my more competitive years I probably would have wanted to do better but I guess that changes with getting older and having more responsibilities.
I'm clearly not as experienced as you in respect of racing and I'm sure your riding ability is much higher than mine but the main points i got for my future races are treat it as just a normal ride with your pals and whats better, caning yourself to get a better time or hit a harder line or getting to the finish last but intact to ride the next day?
Glad you had a good time on the Diva Descent. I think you are talking about a riding friend of mine Cath who came first at the NW Champs and who did exceptionally well (came 6th) and also had a great time. 😀
I would say that I was gutted not to have booked in when I heard about it, but, to be honest, I just didn't want to stress out everyone as I know I have to deal with my reactions to racing first. Like you say, it's a social event (particularly when ladies get together!) but I never feel like being social when I am stressing about times, the clock, the competition.
I wish I was more like your husband, cool, calm and collected. But I am not by any stretch of the imagination any of the above. If you could get a personality transplant then I'd be on the waiting list....but as it is, I have to deal with the one I have. Like Suggsey says above - some people are just hardwired wrong and being passionate and heated and driven does have it's benefits. Like the fact I even ride a bike as the first time I got on one it scared the bejebus out of me....but there was no way I was giving up. I am neither naturally gifted, or naturally fit. I have to work every single step of the way at every fine detail to make any improvement, but I do just that. It is amazing how far sheer-bluddy-mindedness and money can get you in a sport even when you have no natural talent.
caning yourself to get a better time or hit a harder line or getting to the finish last but intact to ride the next day
Sensible non-biased opinion I give to someone else in the same position = the latter.
But the truth for me is that it is the former, definitely the former. If I am at a race, then, atm, I'd want to push it as hard as I dare than come away feeling like I could've/should've gone bigger/done better.
Jo - I can highly recommend both the MacAvalanche and Fort Bill DH Enduro events by NoFussEvents. They sound like your cup of tea.
Think of them like marathon DH bike events...
I was so knackered after Fort Bill, I was staggering around the car park talking gibberish. Lasted the full 6hrs too.... brutal!
Yeah, Cath, thats the one! she ripped it!
There was some pretty inspirational riders there and what I liked was there was a big mix of ages and actually alot of the real pinners were not just young rippers cos if I do have a slight hang up about my abilities it is around age in that, I would have liked to have started DH and racing and mtb in general alot sooner (I am 32 now) but actually my life has taken its course for a reason and whilst ever I can pedal I will! Plus the maturity of being 32 in a riding and race environment has its benefits...lol!
I don't believe that you are hard wired wrong and I do believe that you have the natural talent and fitness. I guess sometimes we need to look at ourselvs from other peoples perspectives to realise how good we are at something. For example, if I saw you ride not knowing anything about your mindset what do you think i would say about your abilities on a bike?
When you talk about wanting to push it as hard as you dare in races, why is that?
Have you been injured before, I'm guessing so if youve raced/ridden alot, has this changed your mindset any?
sorry for the questions, but i really find this subject fascinating, I have often mentioned to my riding buddies how interesting it would be to be hooked up to some sort of machine whilst riding which could read our states of mind and whether we are using positive or negative self talk oh and to see whether the 4 C's are working - commitment, control, confidence and concentration!
Put it this way, Jo is much better than I am and I'm brilliant! 😉 Well I can do the Chatel road gap if that's any benchmark.
From riding with you Jo I can say that when its just riding out with mates you are a very positive person, you talk about how much you loved the little drop here, or how fast you can go on trail X etc etc. But at the races you change, you focus on what went wrong, what wasn't right, mistakes you made, how terrible it was etc etc which is usually totally different to how everybody else saw the run.
It's like a Dr. Jekyll and Mz Hyde! 🙂
Jo - I can highly recommend both the MacAvalanche and Fort Bill DH Enduro events by NoFussEvents. They sound like your cup of tea.Think of them like marathon DH bike events...
I was so knackered after Fort Bill, I was staggering around the car park talking gibberish. Lasted the full 6hrs too.... brutal!
I have seriously considered the Fort Bill enduro, as the one thing I am good at is hanging on and hitting stuff when absolutely knackard (9 solid days of DH in the Alps proved that this year)
However, I would want a visit to see the course first rather than just turning up on the day....I know it's brutal, I need to know just how brutal. I can learn a short-medium length track ok in a practice day, but something like Fort Bill is going to seriously bite if you don't know it at all.
Yeah, Cath, thats the one! she ripped it!
I've just come back from 9 days in the Alps with Cath, she ripped it up there too 😀
There was some pretty inspirational riders there and what I liked was there was a big mix of ages and actually alot of the real pinners were not just young rippers cos if I do have a slight hang up about my abilities it is around age in that, I would have liked to have started DH and racing and mtb in general alot sooner (I am 32 now) but actually my life has taken its course for a reason and whilst ever I can pedal I will! Plus the maturity of being 32 in a riding and race environment has its benefits...lol!
Try being 34, and starting mountain biking at 29. I wouldn't change anything about my life, none of the bad times, except for that one thing. I wish I had the opportunity to do it as a child.
I don't believe that you are hard wired wrong and I do believe that you have the natural talent and fitness. I guess sometimes we need to look at ourselvs from other peoples perspectives to realise how good we are at something. For example, if I saw you ride not knowing anything about your mindset what do you think i would say about your abilities on a bike?
It's all perspective isn't it? You may think I can jump really well because I can clear some big doubles on my big bike....but if you ask someone who can do no handers they would say I was a mediocre jumper with no style who can barely hip, can't whip and definitely looks down far too much.
When you talk about wanting to push it as hard as you dare in races, why is that?
Complicated...probably runs too deep to discuss on a public forum.
Have you been injured before, I'm guessing so if youve raced/ridden alot, has this changed your mindset any?
Yes many times. Concussion, badly damaged shoulder (it was probably partially seperated by I never went to A&E - took ages to recover), broken thumb, full wrist rebuild last year.
The broken thumb incident happened early on in my riding life (just over a year after I started out) and had a MASSIVE effect on my mindset....took a long time to get over (definitely over a year or more - and I had soooo much support from my riding buddies to get me through it) it because it scared me to realise how far the consequences of injury can reach. It was the first time I had to have an operation under general, and it had a huge affect not being able to drive for work for five weeks. It may seem like a small thing, but a thumb break is pretty serious as if it isn't fixed, you may not regain full use of your grip which can make even simple every day tasks a real challenge. As it turned out, I got 100% of the movement back, but I can't lock the joint properly and even now can't change gear on the bike with it. I kept having flashbacks to the operation and recovery (I had a bad time coming out of general). BUT I did get over it. I ride bigger now than I ever thought I would because it forced me to analyse my riding which was, before the accident, clipped-in-and-out-of-control.
Last year I washed out on the way into a gap jump and went over the edge (it was a big edge) and pretty much destroyed my right wrist (dislocation, broken scaphoid, torn ligaments and also torn ligaments on my left wrist)....was told it would be 4 months off the bike and possibly never get full use back. But you know what? It was fine. The op was fine. I was fine. The wrist is almost fine, if not as bendy as before. The time in cast was probably some of the happiest times in my life - everything slowed down, I got to walk everywhere, work couldn't ask me to work all hours and run around on site after site after site because I couldn't get there. I got to appreciate so much more because I had time to. I was back on the bike riding in the cast within a fortnight and straight back on the DH bike hitting big stuff again when I was cut out the cast. Working through the issues associated with the thumb break had totally prepared me mentally for when it happened again.
sorry for the questions, but i really find this subject fascinating, I have often mentioned to my riding buddies how interesting it would be to be hooked up to some sort of machine whilst riding which could read our states of mind and whether we are using positive or negative self talk oh and to see whether the 4 C's are working - commitment, control, confidence and concentration!
Haha I think, if the machine was reading my mind, it would probably malfunction 😆
Well, in my mind anyone who does a road gap and more is sik! I would love to achieve that sort of shizzle.
Sounds to me that you just gotta tell yourself that you rule and then keep telling yourself it til you believe it
Put it this way, Jo is much better than I am and I'm brilliant! Well I can do the Chatel road gap if that's any benchmark.From riding with you Jo I can say that when its just riding out with mates you are a very positive person, you talk about how much you loved the little drop here, or how fast you can go on trail X etc etc. But at the races you change, you focus on what went wrong, what wasn't right, mistakes you made, how terrible it was etc etc which is usually totally different to how everybody else saw the run.
It's like a Dr. Jekyll and Mz Hyde!
I am so not better than you Sammy! I just ride more often I suspect so get to know the trails. If we both rode the same trail for the first time I'm betting I'd struggle to keep up.
I'm pretty Jekyll and Hyde away from the race course as well sometimes if it's a high skill/high pressure environment. Actually I know I am a frickin nightmare to ride with sometimes and am eternally grateful that people still come out with me. I have great mountain biking friends.
Never been to Fort Bill before either! Had 3 practice runs in the morning, and raced in the afternoon. First ride up in the Gondola is rather exciting, as you look down on the track beneath you.... suddenly the "Oh sh!t..." moment kicks in...
Injury is certainly something on my mind too - I spent 10 weeks in plaster with a broken ankle (got a plate in there) and broken wrist.... thanks to Chicksands 4X track, back in 2008. I'm nowhere near as confident on the big stuff as I was back then.
I'm sure that I would think you are the sort of rider I would like to emulate which makes it a shame that you werent at diva as I can imagine that others would learn alot from you especially having reached such a high standard in a short space of time.
You are right, it is about perspective but actually the only real thing that matters I would think is how you perform against yourself and not anyone else and what about those people that arent as good as you whose perspective will be 'that was awesome, I want to be rad like her' don't they matter more than the ones who may see you as mediocre?
I know for sure that if I went out with my husband thinking that I'm going to keep up with him and do all the same tricks/jumps/drops as him then I'm going to come home pretty depressed and stressed. The cool thing is when I achieve something that I've never done before, its a wicked feeling whether others think its mint or not and if they dont think its mint then i'm not interested in what there opinion is anyway. 😛
I was instructed how to whip a tabletop recently and the advice is banked for such time that I feel ready to give it a shot properly...when I nail this trick, stuff what anyone else thinks, I'll be made up!
Winning is a funny old thing, I used to get enraged with myself for not winning ... I remember my tennis coach referring to me as temperemental and I was only young at the time. Now I realise that the built up frustrations and stress were counter productive and stopped me performing well.
I guess winning is about proving to ourselves that we can do something well and that we are valid participants but actually only one person can ever win a race but that doesn't make everyone else rubbish. It may be about luck or course conditions or other things uncontrollable. Do you think you would feel more positive if you won every race you ever entered AND took the hardest lines?
I certainly don't consider myself rubbish on a bike because I came mid pack at Diva, I think I did splendid and I don't mean that in a 'hey look at me, how good am I type way', I mean it in a way 'my place in life is not to be a pro DH racer but actually I did the best I could in poor conditions and achieved something I'd not done before'
My husband doing a no hander over a table top is my landing a 3 foot drop smoothly, both cool in their own ways
I'm sure that I would think you are the sort of rider I would like to emulate which makes it a shame that you werent at diva as I can imagine that others would learn alot from you especially having reached such a high standard in a short space of time.
That's a very kind thing for you to say, but, to be honest, it's probably untrue. I am not an amazing rider by any stretch of the imagination and anyone with enough drive could get to the level I have, if not well beyond. Like I say, I am not naturally talented at sport etc, and never have been. I'm pretty strong for my small size which helps, but that's only because I work at maintaining a basic level of strength.
You are right, it is about perspective but actually the only real thing that matters I would think is how you perform against yourself and not anyone else and what about those people that arent as good as you whose perspective will be 'that was awesome, I want to be rad like her' don't they matter more than the ones who may see you as mediocre?
No, they don't matter more. Both opinions are equally valid...but also equally unimportant, or 'should' be unimportant. Yet I let both get to me and don't really know why as I am pretty good at ignoring societal pressure in other areas of my life. I am my biggest critic though, no doubt, but then like you say, it's how you perform against yourself that is the real issue.....and in races I never feel like I have performed at my best.
Winning is a funny old thing, I used to get enraged with myself for not winning ... I remember my tennis coach referring to me as temperemental and I was only young at the time. Now I realise that the built up frustrations and stress were counter productive and stopped me performing well.
Indeed, this is why I started the thread in the first place. I guess because I feel I have potential to do well at an amateur level, but I'm never going to know how well until I can deal with the stress and actually get to a start line again in one (mental) piece.
Do you think you would feel more positive if you won every race you ever entered AND took the hardest lines?
Probably not. I'd wonder why I wasn't good enough to do a 360 over the 60 meter canyon gap at Rampage 😆
....at least I'm honest, eh?
I certainly don't consider myself rubbish on a bike because I came mid pack at Diva, I think I did splendid and I don't mean that in a 'hey look at me, how good am I type way', I mean it in a way 'my place in life is not to be a pro DH racer but actually I did the best I could in poor conditions and achieved something I'd not done before'
You see, I'd like to be just like you are and admire your attitude so much....and well done! Diva Descent would have attracted ladies who already have enough skill to be confident to attend such an event (no matter how it was marketed) so I suspect all the women there had a lot of skill on a bike. 🙂
I think I have been so interested in this post because I recognise alot of what you are saying in me in years gone by and I guess I see that my attitude towards certain things has changed significantly for various reasons.
Most likely a few years back I would have thought that I should have won and been the best at everything which is ok to a degree as that's the old competitive spirit coming out but there is alot to be said for being a gracious 2nd or 3rd placer (or which ever place) and being open minded enough to think right that was a good performance but there are a few bits to work on and as long as this is done in a positive manner this is productive I guess.
you say that you never feel like you have performed at your best but what is best? sometimes we win things without doing our best and sometimes we do our best but then what happens next if we've already done our best?
I think most of my change in attitude comes from my line of work which is stressful, demanding and requires perfection if I let it. someone more experienced and wiser once said 'what is wrong with good enough?' and he's right, I don't do any less of a decent job and I'm happier and calmer for it...took a while to get to the realisation that good enough is an option (and ok) cos i was very much in the mindset of if i'm not doing the job to the best of my ability then i'm doing the worst job ever which is totally irrational. I have certainly applied this distorted level of thinking to competitive events in the past
One thought to add is that being a great rider and being a great racer are two different things. You're frustrated because your race performances aren't as good as your non-race performance, which suggests that your racing ability isn't as good as your riding ability. If you compartmentalise that you may find your race performances easier to handle as you gradually learn to perform in (and enjoy) a race situation.
I've never done competitive weightlifting (or powerlifting) but it looks like the most stressful thing in the world - you have to turn up peaking at exactly the right time and then have so few opportunities to get it right. When you consider that even the pro DH racers almost never nail a perfect clean run, you can remind yourself that failing to nail one corner is unlikely to lose you a race, as everyone else is screwing up at at least one point, and those who aren't aren't riding fast enough to challenge the podium anyway!
I'm the same age as you, and starting MTBing (again - I used to ride around muddy fields in my youth) when I was 30. Compared to those I ride with I'd say I've progressed pretty damned fast and I don't hang about downhill or around bends. However you've only got another year's experience on me and I think you'd leave me standing downhill! And MTFU is an accurately applicate command for my gender...
Have you tried any meditation/mantras/motivation phrases to pull you out of your bad race vibes and back into the 'I am pretty awesome' mindset?
Jo: bit of a bump cos I've just seen this article:
http://www.bikebiz.com/news/read/cyclotherapy-joins-the-cycle-show
Maybe something of interest?
It's a shame Steve Peters doesn't do private work - sounds like he'd be absolutely ideal for what you want...
I would just like to say thanks to all who contributed to this thread, and to the coaches who got in contact (one of whom I am going to work with in the near future).
Talking to the STW massive have really helped. I made it to a race this weekend and had a brilliant time. Practice day was chilled, and race day was rather surreal in the sense that I totally enjoyed the whole experience and didn't get nervous until about 2 minutes before I was at the start line....and even that was 'good' nervous, not 'bad' nervous.
Hopefully the sports psychology I am going to have will now help get me to some of the bigger (nationals, Pearce and WDMBA) races next year.
Thank you all 🙂