[Closed] Recommend me a good.....sports psychologist

Hhhhmmm, judging by the cost of a normal psychologist I think this would not be cheap. Do you live anywhere near a Uni that specialises in Sports Science such as Leeds Carnegie or Loughborough, there may be students who are looking for someone to practice on. Alternatively you could try one of the sports pscych books, I just got The Chimp Paradox by Steve Peters who is Team GB cycle team team psych, not started reading it yet though...

Thanks olddog.

I know it wont be cheap, but if it helps, then it'll be worth it. 🙂

Will look into the uni options. A book isn't going to do it, I really need someone to talk through the issues with.

Are there any local sports clubs you can join? You may find that they have a deal with a Sports Psychologist as part of membership.

If you're anywhere near Derbyshire, there's a chap called Dave Doig. He's dabbled in DH, 4X and BMX racing, and helped a few people I know overcome "the fear" to race again after bad crashes.

I am member of MCS, but have asked around and not got anywhere yet. I imagine if there are any, they have gone into hiding at the thought of having to deal with me 😆

mike-at-dialledbikes - Member

If you're anywhere near Derbyshire, there's a chap called Dave Doig. He's dabbled in DH, 4X and BMX racing, and helped a few people I know overcome "the fear" to race again after bad crashes.

Thanks Mike. Is this the guy?

http://www.lifedevelopments.co.uk/

Yes. I was going to see him myself a few years ago when I wanted to be a bit more competitive at BMX and 4X racing and take it a bit more seriously. But in the end I accepted I'll always be a bit crap and should just race for fun.

But in the end I accepted I'll always be a bit crap and should just race for fun.

If you read Joe Friel's book on training, he reckons it takes 5 years dedicated training just to find out if you have what it takes to be an Elite rider, only most people never stick it out for 5 years, hence give up before they really know if they can cut it or not.

Are you near Sheffield? This guy's a good friend and great guy. Wouldn't know about how you'd go about getting his services but as an academic I'm sure there's plenty scope. I won't mention which world class downhill rider from Sheffield he helped to finally win his striped jersey... But don't let that level of client put you off, he's completely down to earth.

http://www.shu.ac.uk/research/cses/sp_rob_copeland.html

OP - you don't have to answer this, but is it race training type psych support or overcoming "the fear" .
(or something else?). On the former you may get what you need from a performance coach at a club, if it's the latter I've read good things about courses run by Jedi and Ed at great rock at Gisburn. I've been tempted by the latter myself but not around to it.

Personally, I get the fear sometimes. I really seems to be affected by my mood, some days I go well others my confidence is just lacking and I have to back off. I've stopped worrying too much about it now as I realise it comes and goes, although it would be interesting to work out what triggers it.

...

It's fine, I don't mind answering 🙂

It's not 'the fear'....I have totally dealt with that and am happy to know when I can and can't push my limits (thanks to Jedi at UK bike skills, of course!) Although it can be infinitely frustrating to sometimes have to walk away, I know I can always come back to stuff when I am ready for it and know that tends to happen a lot quicker than it used to. On the whole I ride bigger stuff than I ever thought possible and am happy on the bike, even though I am never going to be a genetically gifted 'natural' rider.

It's directly a 'racing' issue. Very complicated and I could be here all day trying to explain it and getting nowhere, which is why I want the sports psychologist. Essentially, I want to race DH more than anything, but I hate it when I do it. So I tell myself (and everyone else) I'm never going to race again. But then I wake up every weekend cursing that I was too weak to overcome it and deal with the nerves/fear of failure. Marshalling was torture...I thought it may have been good as it would get me involved so I could enjoy the atmosphere without the pressure, but it just rubbed salt in the wounds. I'm never going to be a pro/elite, but I can hold my own in an amateur field and my results have been reasonable even though I can't ride anywhere near as well in a race as when I'm just chilling with the guys. Also, part of the problem was that racing was making me take much bigger technical risks on days when I may have walked away just to get that bit of extra time....so hitting a road gap with a dodgy run in on a slippy wet day rather than saying 'stuff it, chicken line for today' and I think I scared myself when I realised I maybe couldn't trust my own judgement any more.

Thanks for the linky Jimmy - will look into it 🙂

It's a long time since I did properly competive sport but I recognise the feelings and I have a sneaking suspicion that others racing may have similar. I know that the pre-event/match fear and the relief of the near disaster escape was part of the buzz. I think it is the desire to push the boundaries of comfort that drives up performance, but by definition it is going to be uncomfortable...

I'll not even attempt any more amateur psychology as I would only be projecting my own issues onto yours and I could write a very boring book on my own hangups given very little prompting, as I think most people could tbh.- this is why well meant advice from friends is often misplaced as it tends to be more about them than you in my experience.

But I totally respect you and your desire to race and to address the barriers that are constraining you.

Footflaps, I had no aspirations to be anywhere near Elite level, I just wanted to be a better weekend warrior racer. In the end, I also thought seeing a head doc was probably taking things a bit too seriously.

olddog - I totally agree with that.

In the end, I also thought seeing a head doc was probably taking things a bit too seriously

Interesting. I guess a lot of people will feel the same when I tell them I am taking this route, but no-one ever seems bothered about the fact I have bikes that are way more capable than I am. Skills 1:1 training/coaching is also becoming 'the norm' for a lot of people.....and yet the 'head doctor' seems to still be a step too far. Even though, for most, it is probably the biggest bearing of all on their success. Much more so than either the equipment or their innate technical ability.

lgb, have you considered entering some gravity enduro races so you can combine the race mentality (and related issues) with a course which isn't quite so high risk? Also, have you crashed when having moments of 'poor judgement' or have you just got closer to the limits (which is what racing should require!)?

Also, based on interviews I've read with pro DH riders I get the impression that quite a few don't actually enjoy race day - I'm sure I've seen Steve Peat refer to having to ride so fast it's no longer fun and is just scary and that Anne-Caroline Chausson used to be literally sick before every race!

The Gravity Enduro format doesn't appeal to me tbh. I have had a lot of encouragement from people I ride with to have a go but I just don't really fancy it. I like the comfort of the big bike, and the one area I am better is the jumpy stuff rather than the techy rooty stuff. I like the 'acuteness' of the DH format. It has to be right, it has to come together perfectly....but then this is also the reason I hate it.

I am planning to do a 24 hr solo next year, but that will be for fun. I guess the pressure is less for me mentally. All I have to do is pootle round as long as I can and it's a personal endurance challenge rather than a mental challenge. I'm struggling to explain the difference, but there is one. I guess maybe because I don't feel any pressure to perform on a 24 hr solo.....just doing it and getting round will be such a massive achievement for someone like me who is not naturally fit. I wouldn't expect to place anywhere.

No I haven't crashed when I have been having moments of poor judgement whilst in practice. (Well, once, but I kind of knew before I hit it I was probably going to case it, I just wanted to see by how much :p ). I did get told at my last race practice (which I got a DNS) I was either going to break myself or the bike though after a bit of a heavy landing. It wasn't out of control, just untidy.

The question is - does racing REALLY require someone to race right on their limits, or can people be happy knowing that they raced to the best of their ability within their own comfort zone? Also, would I ever be happy doing that (the answer is no, I know this already, I'm just in denial). I guess racing makes me realise my own technical ability isn't anywhere near as good as I want it to be....but the stupid thing is, no matter how much I improve, I'm still not as good as I would like.

Some of my colleagues from here

http://www.staffs.ac.uk/faculties/health/subjects_and_courses/sport_and_exercise/index.jsp

Take your pick or send a general e-mail to all of them

Dr. Marc Jones
marc.jones@staffs.ac.uk

Dr. Jamie Barker
j.b.barker@staffs.ac.uk

Dr. Charlottoe Woodcock
charlotte.woodcock@staffs.ac.uk

Dr. Naomi Ellis
n.j.ellis@staffs.ac.uk

All really good sports psychologists, all with publications and books to their credit, all thoroughly approachable and passionate about their subject, all members of and accredited with the British Association of Sport and Exercise Sciences and/or the British Psychological Association

Oh wow, thanks Andy 🙂

The more I practice the luckier I get - not sure who said this (the golfer Gary Player I think). You need to ride sections over and over again. The sports physiologists can help you with how to prepare, how to have a positive, confident winning attitude and as all that have been to Tony have seen the mental side is cruicial. I'd suggest also trying to connect and then train with some other DHers perhaps ladies if that means you'll have a better rapport and also I imagine technique is likely to be a little different, more finesse shall we say. That brings me back to my initial point, if you are trying to get serious about it you need to train in an organised fashion and not only go for a ride.

The question is - does racing REALLY require someone to race right on their limits, or can people be happy knowing that they raced to the best of their ability within their own comfort zone?

If you plan to do one amazing race and then retire then yes to the former! But in the real world every sportsperson is subconsciously or consciously managing the risks they take, and I don't think you should castigate yourself for doing so. Tony talked about you when he was coaching me and I got the impression that you're a good rider, certainly above my level, so when you're racing you will need to manage risk to a degree as very bad things can happen when you're going big and fast but operating close to your limits.

That brings me back to my initial point, if you are trying to get serious about it you need to train in an organised fashion and not only go for a ride.

This actually hits the nail spot on, right on the head. I am more than capable of organising my training, riding sections until I perfect them within my ability, dragging the bike to the race course as soon as I hear which one it will be and picking lines until it's too dark to see them anymore. The training/racing practicalities are not the issue.

What I want to do is be able to 'just enjoy it'. Enjoy the process, and making the best of what I have, but without getting 'serious'. I guess if you ask most people what my problem is, they would say 'she just takes it too seriously'. Actually, anyone unlucky enough to meet me on race day would probably say a lot of other stuff as well, mostly unrepeatable.

I am highly strung at the best of times, racing normally tips me over the edge. I'd love to be one of them 'cool' people that everyone likes to be around, who just deals with stuff and never seems phased. That's never going to happen, but it would be nice if my highly-strungness would stop getting in the way of me achieving anything.

chiefgrooveguru. Agree with that for sure.

Btw, Tony has much more belief in my abilities than I do, I wish you could get a pocket wind-up operated Tony to pull out at crucial moments 😆

LGB, my "taking it too seriously" comment was aimed directly at me, not in any way applicable to you. If you think seeing a sports psych will enhance your cycling experience, go for it.

I just didn't in the end (if you saw me ride/race you would realise I need help in lots of other areas first!).

Let us know how it works out.

If you are Jo then your riding over Style Cop is pretty impressive already.

Stile Cop doesn't count though! It's timed practice not racing as we know 😉 and I have always come first AND last, because I've been the only girl on the couple of occasions I have made it to a Guild day.

But again, it's not so much about the riding/skills, it's about the fact that I really want to become a 'racer' but just can't seem to get my head around it.

OP - sorry, I know you're looking for a person not a book, but I'm still going to recommend getting a copy of Inner Skiing by Tim Gallwey and Rob Kriegel.

I think it deals quite nicely with some of the issues you raised.

Jo,I would prescribe a course of something that no one else has offered yet, that being some MTFU tablets. 😆
For what its worth when playing competitive rugby I used to do all the visualisation techniques all the physical training etc etc but the main thing that I always felt I had when taking the field to play against anyone that was physically stronger/bigger/technically better was that mentally I was hard as nails and would not be beaten and was playing for one reason and one reason only and that was to win. I would hate it at the end of the match if we had lost but would always know I had given 110% and I saw so many players who went out with a defeatist attitude getting injured in contact situations.
Difficult to get exactly the same transfer of mindset to your situation individual racing and ultimately you really have to be totally fearless but know that technically and physically you are at the top of your game and know you are the best in your own mind.
My mantra is 'Believe in yourself' and honestly feel that believing in anything else apart from me being in control of my destiny/ability is pointless and non productive and whilst it may sound like I am being controversial that is why I have no belief or interest in religion-IMO it is for people who cannot believe in themselves. Not that people that believe in religion are wrong for their own circumstances it may suit.
Until you believe in yourself completely and get rid of your self doubt that you have always had from those early days you will not reach your full 'race' potential.
You know that us blokes that have ridden with you have always been in awe of your bottle and bike skills that you have gained but having bottle to take a chance and 'knowing' you are the best are still a step apart that you will need someone smarter than me to teach you to overcome. Hope you reach a point in your riding/life that you can realise your full potential.

Now I sit back and prepare to be flayed, flogged and hung drawn and quartered for my thoughts but at the end of the day I stand by them as its what I truly believe.

I am highly strung at the best of times

What I want to do is be able to 'just enjoy it'. Enjoy the process, and making the best of what I have, but without getting 'serious'. I guess if you ask most people what my problem is, they would say 'she just takes it too seriously'

So is it just the sport stuff that is causing issues or are you just a "driven" person in other aspects of your life?

I can recognise the issues in quite a few people I know 🙄

Sorry just a question, no answers...

After trying to make my 3rd comeback at squash having seriously twisted my knee I have finally accepted the fact I can no longer carry on. I had difficulty accepting this for a while but considering my GP advised me to give up nigh on 30yrs ago 🙄 I "retired" happy in the knowledge that in one of my last games I managed a win over the club champion, much to his annoyance 😆

The first time I was forced to "retire" from playing squash was due to recurring back problems. I was becoming frustrated at my inability to progress due to the fact I was constantly in pain. I stopped for 3yrs and returned again having built up a fair bit of fitness due to taking up "all-terrain biking" (now mtb) and receiving a bit of physio. Unfortunately the cycle repeated itself but this time I stopped before the frustration set in 💡 Different circumstances from you I know. Just a wee story...

As for biking I am limited to what I can do due to the same knee issues, a dodgy back and a bit of whiplash induced neck pain ❗ Again I get no sympathy when and if I do have to visit a GP(all new, young ones who don`t really know my history)
Luckily I have always been surrounded by supportive people whether squash or bikers and with their help have always managed to soldier on.

LGB - Suggsey's advice to MTFU while well intentioned, may not work for you at all. Why? Because you're not a man. Apparently your female brain works differently than ours.

Judy Freeman (US Pro XC racer) writes about it in her blog [url= http://www.singletrack.competitor.com/2010/03/news/life-as-a-bike-jockey-eve-olution-and-the-bike_6764 ]here.[/url]

Obviously, you can ride at a pretty high level, and you know this. But my guess is that the added stress of a race situation is enough to push you into the territory that Judy is talking about.

How do I know this? Though we have never met and I am not a female and therefore can't possibly understand how your brain works, I am morally obligated to offer advice in an area that I have no experience or qualifications in while being several time zones away across the ocean because this is STW!

I guess racing makes me realise my own technical ability isn't anywhere near as good as I want it to be....

it's not so much about the riding/skills, it's about the fact that I really want to become a 'racer' but just can't seem to get my head around it.

I'd also try to find the time to ask yourself why you feel you [i]need[/i] to be a "racer"

Becoming "good at DH racing" is something that needs to be learned IME.. having someone experienced around should make it easier for you to learn what you need to do, from fitness/skills training to pre-race preparation to travel, to walking the track, spotting/choosing lines, managing practice time efficiently, optomising bike set-up for track/conditions etc. so everything can fall into place on race morning and you're prepared for that last full practice run to be close to a clean fast race run (but prossibly still holding back a little for the final). then it's upto you to use everything you've learned that weekend confident in the start hut to put it all together against the clock.

I'm never going to be a pro/elite, but I can hold my own in an amateur field

Thanks for the replies all.

Suggesy, you may be right, but then, as JoeG points out....MTFU may not work at all (thanks for the linky Joe, I know others who will fin that useful).

To be fair, I have tried, and as you know, I am not one to give up lightly and have had quite a journey to get to where I am now already....but self belief is never something I have had a lot of. I know this is going to make me sound awful, but hey ho, it's the truth....on every race I have turned up, took one look at the competition and thought, holy crap I'm going to be last, which is the worst feeling in the world. Even though actually, in every case, it has been very much far from the truth.

I guess I would like to be in a place where I could turn up, look at the competition, think, "oh 'eck these are fab riders, I'm probably going to come last, but WGAS....I'm going to have fun anyway and still race, and enjoy doing so". I think this may not be possible for me though, and I hate myself for being so competitive. Tony has said don't race the clock, or the competition, race the trail. I have tried, but I just can't get my head around it.

Trekster....no I can be driven to unacceptability in pretty much anything. Thanks for the incites - hope you do manage to keep riding round/with the pain. It must be frustrating as hell.

Why do you want to pay a sports psychologist if this is really what you think?

Because I can
Because it's something I want to do
Because I would like to see just how far I can take my riding with the ability/time/money that I have

All good DH racers are not just very good riders they are also very confident of their own ability.
You at the moment sound neither.

I don't want to be a good racer. I just want to be one. It's more about being able to enjoy the journey and experience of seeing how far I can take my riding.

I'm not a bad rider btw - but I would trade the fact that I have podiumed on every race I have actually got to the start line, to have enjoyed every one instead.

LGB - Another thing that you should read 😉 ...

Switchback Magazine, Issue 5 (Aug/Sep 2012) article on Willow Rockwell (Koerber) who stopped racing after her daughter was born. While IMO she's a bit flaky (in a new-age crystals and karma sort of way, even for a woman 😀 ) she says that she never enjoyed riding until after she quit racing. For the first time ever, she stopped mid-ride (she could, it wasn't training) at an overlook or something. She had never done that before as she had started racing almost as soon as she started riding. Then raced through her teens, in college, then as a pro. She was pretty successful, but from what I remember it seemed that she did it out of competitiveness and being a perfectionist, not because she enjoyed it. Not quite the same as you, but in the ballpark.

If you can't get the magazine, let me know and I'll figure out a way to get the article to you somehow (photo w/digital camera or something).

I really hope that you're able to find the enjoyment and satisfaction that you are looking for from racing DH.

lgb I'm far from an expert but it seems your issues are far more than just cycling related. Maybe explore methods that will help you chill out in general. You never know this might trickle down to your riding.

Thanks Joe. I'll look into it when I'm back on a proper computer and let you know if I can't find it.

Chipsngravy - yep this I also know....however I am pretty good at dealing with my highly-strungness after years of practice in most other situations. I won't give details of my history etc but one thing is for sure, I have been through far worse than not being able to get to the start line at a race. Which I guess is why it's so frustrating that I can't work out how to deal with something that is essentially pretty minor.

I think some people look down on sports psychology but it's just another set of skills for riding your bike, no less relevant or useful than riding skill, and if it makes you get more out of it then why not? There's plenty of people who have good bike handling skills but less good brain-handling skills.

Jo the MTFU was tongue in cheek, but the main fact of my understanding of your riding is as you have admitted lack of self belief.
I dont know if a sports psychologist can ever instil the level of self belief in you that is needed for you to succeed as I personally belief that if you are 'hard wired' with a lack of self belief that is the way that your brain will stay. I make this observation from the many years that I have been involved with family and friends with psychological issues and the psychological help some of them have received professionally. Some the psychologist helped to retrain others just seem to be unable to break the 'hard wiring' or always resort back to type.
I hope you do manage to find a suitable psychologist could I suggest not necessarily a sports psychologist as any negative emotions that you feel about yourself could be more deep seated than just related to specific sports situations. I make this comment from experience with others Jo and you may well be surprised what a non sports psychologist can achieve too for you.

lgb, is downhill racing the first sport you've competed in? If not, did you feel the same way in those situations?

Have your podium places had any positive bearing upon how you feel the next time you race?

Mayby try a different approach? Instead of thinking your way out of it (analysis), just do it (exposure), and accept the nervous feelings. Does it matter if you go flat out or or not perform to your very best ? See if this reduces the fight or flight feelings (nervousness) you seem to be getting.

Thanks Suggs - I know what you mean, but I'm kind of 'over' the exploration process. I have many reasons for why I am the person I am, what I want is positive, practical solutions on how to work with it to still get the best out of my riding.

lgb, is downhill racing the first sport you've competed in? If not, did you feel the same way in those situations?

No it isn't. I have run competitively and powerlifted.

Did I feel the same way? Not when running, because I am truely atrocious at running so it was only ever a personal challenge, not a competitive one for me.

Powerlifting - yes, most definitely so. Again pretty high pressure environment to perform at your max perfectly for a very short space of time. Only competed once and, despite the fact I could have easily got into nationals (powerlifting suffers even more so from lack of female participation so it's easy to qualify), I just couldn't bear the thought of competing again.

Have your podium places had any positive bearing upon how you feel the next time you race?

No, negative I would say, because it's almost felt like the expectation from friends etc that I would perform gets greater and then I feel more external pressure....as well as the pressure from myself to do so. I have people predicting my placing before I have even had a practice run and it's daunting. Even though I know it shouldn't be.

Mayby try a different approach? Instead of thinking your way out of it (analysis), just do it (exposure), and accept the nervous feelings. Does it matter if you go flat out or or not perform to your very best ? See if this reduces the fight or flight feelings (nervousness) you seem to be getting.

This was my plan for the year. Exactly what you say above. Get used to the racing environment, deal with it and it would get easier like everyone kept telling me. Exposure didn't work as I soon found out, that for me, it mattered massively whether I performed at my best. Then I just kept getting really stressed on race days and unable to interact with people properly causing me even more stress as I would feel guilty for being in such a state over something so meaningless as a bicycle race! *bangs head*

Interesting thread to read so far...

My £0.02...

Some people race to compare themselves against others - 100m sprint for example.

Some people race to compare against themselves, regardless of their final position against other people - marathon running.

("I may be last of everyone, but my race run was 8 minutes better than one month ago - so I'm very very happy")

I have tried a bit of DH racing, so see if either of the above apply to me - and they don't. Strangely BMX racing does do it for me (option #1) so I've taken to that recently...

Perhaps ask yourself why you want to race? What does racing offer you, that a chilled 'ride with mates' doesn't?

Will the pressure of racing force you to hit harder lines/delay braking longer, therefore progress your skills as a rider (way more than any 'training course' could do)

Are you thinking too much into it all, and getting worked up over nothing? (Sorry to be blunt!)

Will the pressure of racing force you to hit harder lines/delay braking longer, therefore progress your skills as a rider (way more than any 'training course' could do)

Yes. Yes and definitely yes.

There is also more to it, it has become a mental challenge for me to beat! It will make me stronger if I work out how to deal with the issues.

I have other reasons too, but I'd rather not discuss them here.

Are you thinking too much into it all, and getting worked up over nothing? (Sorry to be blunt!)

Story of my life 😆

I'm the opposite to you - pressure has the opposite effect on my riding. I'd opt for the chicken line in a race, but send it when having a chilled riding session (with no pressure).

Jo mate, which would you rather:

Sketchy run that you felt was out of control 75% on the time but got you first place.

or:

Perfect run, hit every line, hit every braking point and sent every jump. Came seventh.

?

Oooh good question Sammy, good question.

Could I have another option - came last and had a good time?

But then if you're not interested in position why are you wanting to race? If its to challenge yourself against yourself then maybe try to find another format that is not so pressured?

BTW, as you know, I feel the same about DH racing, the actual run itself is amazing but is outweighed by the previous two weeks of feeling sick and stressed. And coming last does not help much (as I know!). 🙂

Ok, going back to the original question...the answer I would like to give you would be option B. In fact, I think I have been kidding myself that is the situation for a long time.

But when it is laid out in black and white like that, then, with all honesty, it would be option A. Definitely option A.

Does this make me a bad person?

Not at all mate, I expect that's what most race runs are like for the pros. Its about the winning that counts.

But I think you should be clear what you want from racing so that you know whether racing is what you want. IYKWIM.

Personally I want to come first, I want to be the best, the trouble is I'm rubbish and find the whole experience massively stressful so get no reward from it. For that reason, I'm out (of DH racing). 🙂

Hey Jo, I've really been interested in this thread so far but not sure whether my comments will help any or not.

I've just spent the weekend at diva descent - not sure if youve heard of the event or whether you would be interested but its training delivered to all females by female DH pros and then a race. All ability levels entered and the idea is to prompt more women into the DH racing scene.

Just wanted to make some observations from my experience of the weekend particularly as it was my first ever race. There were some awesome riders there, a lass that had won north west champs I think and others that had done many races who proper pinned it.

Those that raced the best were having the most fun and were relaxed so it seemed to me. there was a clear attitude from every lass of wanting to just have an awesome day, chat with others and make a few new riding pals. Now it doesnt sound like you are too bothered about the social element but personally having been v.competitive in the past in other sports (only at county level) I now consider that the best sports persons are those that do it just cos they like it and for no other reason.

My husband is one of the best riders I know, I doubt he will ever compete cos he 'just wants to ride his bike and have fun'. I think it would be pretty decent on some of the amateur circuits but thats not what he rides his bike for. He's the sort of guy that just rides smooth and effortlessly but then he'll pop a no hander or some other equally impressive trick! He's ridden bikes all his life and clearly has the natural ability but to be honest it seems mostly about his mindset. In life in general he's a happy guy, pretty child and takes things in his stride, you can see this in his biking for sure. he just quietly gets on with it.

I broke my collar bone last year and prior to that I used to get pretty annoyed if I wasnt pushing my limits and trying new things on a bike (I'm not talking major big stuff but big stuff for me). My aim these days is just to chill and ride safe and this in itself has improved my riding...don't think I would have thought about entering DH races this time last year.

I came 22nd out of 40 racers yesterday...the course was wet, rooty and rocky with some tough little sections. I was so pleased with my efforts and its a great feeling coming away with that and not thinking, shoot, wish I could have done better cos thats just stressful and uses too much emotional energy. Few years back though when i was in my more competitive years I probably would have wanted to do better but I guess that changes with getting older and having more responsibilities.

I'm clearly not as experienced as you in respect of racing and I'm sure your riding ability is much higher than mine but the main points i got for my future races are treat it as just a normal ride with your pals and whats better, caning yourself to get a better time or hit a harder line or getting to the finish last but intact to ride the next day?

Glad you had a good time on the Diva Descent. I think you are talking about a riding friend of mine Cath who came first at the NW Champs and who did exceptionally well (came 6th) and also had a great time. 😀

I would say that I was gutted not to have booked in when I heard about it, but, to be honest, I just didn't want to stress out everyone as I know I have to deal with my reactions to racing first. Like you say, it's a social event (particularly when ladies get together!) but I never feel like being social when I am stressing about times, the clock, the competition.

I wish I was more like your husband, cool, calm and collected. But I am not by any stretch of the imagination any of the above. If you could get a personality transplant then I'd be on the waiting list....but as it is, I have to deal with the one I have. Like Suggsey says above - some people are just hardwired wrong and being passionate and heated and driven does have it's benefits. Like the fact I even ride a bike as the first time I got on one it scared the bejebus out of me....but there was no way I was giving up. I am neither naturally gifted, or naturally fit. I have to work every single step of the way at every fine detail to make any improvement, but I do just that. It is amazing how far sheer-bluddy-mindedness and money can get you in a sport even when you have no natural talent.

caning yourself to get a better time or hit a harder line or getting to the finish last but intact to ride the next day

Sensible non-biased opinion I give to someone else in the same position = the latter.

But the truth for me is that it is the former, definitely the former. If I am at a race, then, atm, I'd want to push it as hard as I dare than come away feeling like I could've/should've gone bigger/done better.

Jo - I can highly recommend both the MacAvalanche and Fort Bill DH Enduro events by NoFussEvents. They sound like your cup of tea.

Think of them like marathon DH bike events...

I was so knackered after Fort Bill, I was staggering around the car park talking gibberish. Lasted the full 6hrs too.... brutal!

Yeah, Cath, thats the one! she ripped it!

There was some pretty inspirational riders there and what I liked was there was a big mix of ages and actually alot of the real pinners were not just young rippers cos if I do have a slight hang up about my abilities it is around age in that, I would have liked to have started DH and racing and mtb in general alot sooner (I am 32 now) but actually my life has taken its course for a reason and whilst ever I can pedal I will! Plus the maturity of being 32 in a riding and race environment has its benefits...lol!

I don't believe that you are hard wired wrong and I do believe that you have the natural talent and fitness. I guess sometimes we need to look at ourselvs from other peoples perspectives to realise how good we are at something. For example, if I saw you ride not knowing anything about your mindset what do you think i would say about your abilities on a bike?

When you talk about wanting to push it as hard as you dare in races, why is that?

Have you been injured before, I'm guessing so if youve raced/ridden alot, has this changed your mindset any?

sorry for the questions, but i really find this subject fascinating, I have often mentioned to my riding buddies how interesting it would be to be hooked up to some sort of machine whilst riding which could read our states of mind and whether we are using positive or negative self talk oh and to see whether the 4 C's are working - commitment, control, confidence and concentration!

Put it this way, Jo is much better than I am and I'm brilliant! 😉 Well I can do the Chatel road gap if that's any benchmark.

From riding with you Jo I can say that when its just riding out with mates you are a very positive person, you talk about how much you loved the little drop here, or how fast you can go on trail X etc etc. But at the races you change, you focus on what went wrong, what wasn't right, mistakes you made, how terrible it was etc etc which is usually totally different to how everybody else saw the run.

It's like a Dr. Jekyll and Mz Hyde! 🙂

Jo - I can highly recommend both the MacAvalanche and Fort Bill DH Enduro events by NoFussEvents. They sound like your cup of tea.

Think of them like marathon DH bike events...

I was so knackered after Fort Bill, I was staggering around the car park talking gibberish. Lasted the full 6hrs too.... brutal!

I have seriously considered the Fort Bill enduro, as the one thing I am good at is hanging on and hitting stuff when absolutely knackard (9 solid days of DH in the Alps proved that this year)

However, I would want a visit to see the course first rather than just turning up on the day....I know it's brutal, I need to know just how brutal. I can learn a short-medium length track ok in a practice day, but something like Fort Bill is going to seriously bite if you don't know it at all.

Yeah, Cath, thats the one! she ripped it!

I've just come back from 9 days in the Alps with Cath, she ripped it up there too 😀

There was some pretty inspirational riders there and what I liked was there was a big mix of ages and actually alot of the real pinners were not just young rippers cos if I do have a slight hang up about my abilities it is around age in that, I would have liked to have started DH and racing and mtb in general alot sooner (I am 32 now) but actually my life has taken its course for a reason and whilst ever I can pedal I will! Plus the maturity of being 32 in a riding and race environment has its benefits...lol!

Try being 34, and starting mountain biking at 29. I wouldn't change anything about my life, none of the bad times, except for that one thing. I wish I had the opportunity to do it as a child.

I don't believe that you are hard wired wrong and I do believe that you have the natural talent and fitness. I guess sometimes we need to look at ourselvs from other peoples perspectives to realise how good we are at something. For example, if I saw you ride not knowing anything about your mindset what do you think i would say about your abilities on a bike?

It's all perspective isn't it? You may think I can jump really well because I can clear some big doubles on my big bike....but if you ask someone who can do no handers they would say I was a mediocre jumper with no style who can barely hip, can't whip and definitely looks down far too much.

When you talk about wanting to push it as hard as you dare in races, why is that?

Complicated...probably runs too deep to discuss on a public forum.

Have you been injured before, I'm guessing so if youve raced/ridden alot, has this changed your mindset any?

Yes many times. Concussion, badly damaged shoulder (it was probably partially seperated by I never went to A&E - took ages to recover), broken thumb, full wrist rebuild last year.

The broken thumb incident happened early on in my riding life (just over a year after I started out) and had a MASSIVE effect on my mindset....took a long time to get over (definitely over a year or more - and I had soooo much support from my riding buddies to get me through it) it because it scared me to realise how far the consequences of injury can reach. It was the first time I had to have an operation under general, and it had a huge affect not being able to drive for work for five weeks. It may seem like a small thing, but a thumb break is pretty serious as if it isn't fixed, you may not regain full use of your grip which can make even simple every day tasks a real challenge. As it turned out, I got 100% of the movement back, but I can't lock the joint properly and even now can't change gear on the bike with it. I kept having flashbacks to the operation and recovery (I had a bad time coming out of general). BUT I did get over it. I ride bigger now than I ever thought I would because it forced me to analyse my riding which was, before the accident, clipped-in-and-out-of-control.

Last year I washed out on the way into a gap jump and went over the edge (it was a big edge) and pretty much destroyed my right wrist (dislocation, broken scaphoid, torn ligaments and also torn ligaments on my left wrist)....was told it would be 4 months off the bike and possibly never get full use back. But you know what? It was fine. The op was fine. I was fine. The wrist is almost fine, if not as bendy as before. The time in cast was probably some of the happiest times in my life - everything slowed down, I got to walk everywhere, work couldn't ask me to work all hours and run around on site after site after site because I couldn't get there. I got to appreciate so much more because I had time to. I was back on the bike riding in the cast within a fortnight and straight back on the DH bike hitting big stuff again when I was cut out the cast. Working through the issues associated with the thumb break had totally prepared me mentally for when it happened again.

sorry for the questions, but i really find this subject fascinating, I have often mentioned to my riding buddies how interesting it would be to be hooked up to some sort of machine whilst riding which could read our states of mind and whether we are using positive or negative self talk oh and to see whether the 4 C's are working - commitment, control, confidence and concentration!

Haha I think, if the machine was reading my mind, it would probably malfunction 😆

Well, in my mind anyone who does a road gap and more is sik! I would love to achieve that sort of shizzle.

Sounds to me that you just gotta tell yourself that you rule and then keep telling yourself it til you believe it

Put it this way, Jo is much better than I am and I'm brilliant! Well I can do the Chatel road gap if that's any benchmark.

From riding with you Jo I can say that when its just riding out with mates you are a very positive person, you talk about how much you loved the little drop here, or how fast you can go on trail X etc etc. But at the races you change, you focus on what went wrong, what wasn't right, mistakes you made, how terrible it was etc etc which is usually totally different to how everybody else saw the run.

It's like a Dr. Jekyll and Mz Hyde!

I am so not better than you Sammy! I just ride more often I suspect so get to know the trails. If we both rode the same trail for the first time I'm betting I'd struggle to keep up.

I'm pretty Jekyll and Hyde away from the race course as well sometimes if it's a high skill/high pressure environment. Actually I know I am a frickin nightmare to ride with sometimes and am eternally grateful that people still come out with me. I have great mountain biking friends.

Never been to Fort Bill before either! Had 3 practice runs in the morning, and raced in the afternoon. First ride up in the Gondola is rather exciting, as you look down on the track beneath you.... suddenly the "Oh sh!t..." moment kicks in...

Injury is certainly something on my mind too - I spent 10 weeks in plaster with a broken ankle (got a plate in there) and broken wrist.... thanks to Chicksands 4X track, back in 2008. I'm nowhere near as confident on the big stuff as I was back then.

I'm sure that I would think you are the sort of rider I would like to emulate which makes it a shame that you werent at diva as I can imagine that others would learn alot from you especially having reached such a high standard in a short space of time.

You are right, it is about perspective but actually the only real thing that matters I would think is how you perform against yourself and not anyone else and what about those people that arent as good as you whose perspective will be 'that was awesome, I want to be rad like her' don't they matter more than the ones who may see you as mediocre?

I know for sure that if I went out with my husband thinking that I'm going to keep up with him and do all the same tricks/jumps/drops as him then I'm going to come home pretty depressed and stressed. The cool thing is when I achieve something that I've never done before, its a wicked feeling whether others think its mint or not and if they dont think its mint then i'm not interested in what there opinion is anyway. 😛

I was instructed how to whip a tabletop recently and the advice is banked for such time that I feel ready to give it a shot properly...when I nail this trick, stuff what anyone else thinks, I'll be made up!

Winning is a funny old thing, I used to get enraged with myself for not winning ... I remember my tennis coach referring to me as temperemental and I was only young at the time. Now I realise that the built up frustrations and stress were counter productive and stopped me performing well.

I guess winning is about proving to ourselves that we can do something well and that we are valid participants but actually only one person can ever win a race but that doesn't make everyone else rubbish. It may be about luck or course conditions or other things uncontrollable. Do you think you would feel more positive if you won every race you ever entered AND took the hardest lines?

I certainly don't consider myself rubbish on a bike because I came mid pack at Diva, I think I did splendid and I don't mean that in a 'hey look at me, how good am I type way', I mean it in a way 'my place in life is not to be a pro DH racer but actually I did the best I could in poor conditions and achieved something I'd not done before'

My husband doing a no hander over a table top is my landing a 3 foot drop smoothly, both cool in their own ways

I'm sure that I would think you are the sort of rider I would like to emulate which makes it a shame that you werent at diva as I can imagine that others would learn alot from you especially having reached such a high standard in a short space of time.

That's a very kind thing for you to say, but, to be honest, it's probably untrue. I am not an amazing rider by any stretch of the imagination and anyone with enough drive could get to the level I have, if not well beyond. Like I say, I am not naturally talented at sport etc, and never have been. I'm pretty strong for my small size which helps, but that's only because I work at maintaining a basic level of strength.

You are right, it is about perspective but actually the only real thing that matters I would think is how you perform against yourself and not anyone else and what about those people that arent as good as you whose perspective will be 'that was awesome, I want to be rad like her' don't they matter more than the ones who may see you as mediocre?

No, they don't matter more. Both opinions are equally valid...but also equally unimportant, or 'should' be unimportant. Yet I let both get to me and don't really know why as I am pretty good at ignoring societal pressure in other areas of my life. I am my biggest critic though, no doubt, but then like you say, it's how you perform against yourself that is the real issue.....and in races I never feel like I have performed at my best.

Winning is a funny old thing, I used to get enraged with myself for not winning ... I remember my tennis coach referring to me as temperemental and I was only young at the time. Now I realise that the built up frustrations and stress were counter productive and stopped me performing well.

Indeed, this is why I started the thread in the first place. I guess because I feel I have potential to do well at an amateur level, but I'm never going to know how well until I can deal with the stress and actually get to a start line again in one (mental) piece.

Do you think you would feel more positive if you won every race you ever entered AND took the hardest lines?

Probably not. I'd wonder why I wasn't good enough to do a 360 over the 60 meter canyon gap at Rampage 😆

....at least I'm honest, eh?

I certainly don't consider myself rubbish on a bike because I came mid pack at Diva, I think I did splendid and I don't mean that in a 'hey look at me, how good am I type way', I mean it in a way 'my place in life is not to be a pro DH racer but actually I did the best I could in poor conditions and achieved something I'd not done before'

You see, I'd like to be just like you are and admire your attitude so much....and well done! Diva Descent would have attracted ladies who already have enough skill to be confident to attend such an event (no matter how it was marketed) so I suspect all the women there had a lot of skill on a bike. 🙂

I think I have been so interested in this post because I recognise alot of what you are saying in me in years gone by and I guess I see that my attitude towards certain things has changed significantly for various reasons.

Most likely a few years back I would have thought that I should have won and been the best at everything which is ok to a degree as that's the old competitive spirit coming out but there is alot to be said for being a gracious 2nd or 3rd placer (or which ever place) and being open minded enough to think right that was a good performance but there are a few bits to work on and as long as this is done in a positive manner this is productive I guess.

you say that you never feel like you have performed at your best but what is best? sometimes we win things without doing our best and sometimes we do our best but then what happens next if we've already done our best?

I think most of my change in attitude comes from my line of work which is stressful, demanding and requires perfection if I let it. someone more experienced and wiser once said 'what is wrong with good enough?' and he's right, I don't do any less of a decent job and I'm happier and calmer for it...took a while to get to the realisation that good enough is an option (and ok) cos i was very much in the mindset of if i'm not doing the job to the best of my ability then i'm doing the worst job ever which is totally irrational. I have certainly applied this distorted level of thinking to competitive events in the past

One thought to add is that being a great rider and being a great racer are two different things. You're frustrated because your race performances aren't as good as your non-race performance, which suggests that your racing ability isn't as good as your riding ability. If you compartmentalise that you may find your race performances easier to handle as you gradually learn to perform in (and enjoy) a race situation.

I've never done competitive weightlifting (or powerlifting) but it looks like the most stressful thing in the world - you have to turn up peaking at exactly the right time and then have so few opportunities to get it right. When you consider that even the pro DH racers almost never nail a perfect clean run, you can remind yourself that failing to nail one corner is unlikely to lose you a race, as everyone else is screwing up at at least one point, and those who aren't aren't riding fast enough to challenge the podium anyway!

I'm the same age as you, and starting MTBing (again - I used to ride around muddy fields in my youth) when I was 30. Compared to those I ride with I'd say I've progressed pretty damned fast and I don't hang about downhill or around bends. However you've only got another year's experience on me and I think you'd leave me standing downhill! And MTFU is an accurately applicate command for my gender...

Have you tried any meditation/mantras/motivation phrases to pull you out of your bad race vibes and back into the 'I am pretty awesome' mindset?

Jo: bit of a bump cos I've just seen this article:
http://www.bikebiz.com/news/read/cyclotherapy-joins-the-cycle-show

Maybe something of interest?

It's a shame Steve Peters doesn't do private work - sounds like he'd be absolutely ideal for what you want...

I would just like to say thanks to all who contributed to this thread, and to the coaches who got in contact (one of whom I am going to work with in the near future).

Talking to the STW massive have really helped. I made it to a race this weekend and had a brilliant time. Practice day was chilled, and race day was rather surreal in the sense that I totally enjoyed the whole experience and didn't get nervous until about 2 minutes before I was at the start line....and even that was 'good' nervous, not 'bad' nervous.

Hopefully the sports psychology I am going to have will now help get me to some of the bigger (nationals, Pearce and WDMBA) races next year.

Thank you all 🙂