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I don't get all this Prince Albert heavy nonsense. Mine's built for strength rather than lightweight xc spec. I run 721 wheels, SLX cranks, Menja forks (more of a budget choice rather than strength) and no carbon anywhere.
Comes in at 28 lbs which I think is a good weight for an "aggresive" steel hardtail.
I am on the same track as the original OP but I have an old kona cindercone pictured below that I am looking to improve on or upgrade with a modern equivalent. What bike could replace and improve upon (if any) on the cone?
i am still torn between SS and gears and fully rigid and front sus but that is a whole new thread subject I guess!
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you shouldn't discount the weight of a frame. a light frame will handle faster and feel more flickable through singletrack. also you should check out the geometries. a slack head tube will be great DH but twisty turny singletrack will feel vague-er. Most the steel frames I've seenfall into the 4.5-5lbs. The burlier ones 5.0-6.0lbs. I don't see much point in carrying around that excess frame weight or fork travel if I don't need it.
i've found the merlins to have quite a compact geometry, the ride position is more upright which is probably down to a shortish top-tube. and remember upping the fork travel on a frame slackens the head angle, heightens the BB, shortens the top-tube and may unduly stress the frame in a way it wasn't designed to take.
aw - voodoo wanga, orange p7, love/hate (does it have the front derailleur braze-on yet?), gary fisher ferrous are all geared/ss steel frames.
a few more to consider! 🙂
thanks HTTP404 🙂
Thank you Scott Mcavennie for writing pretty much what I wrote this morning but the site crashed when I hit send.
The PA frame is a little heavier than the usual comparables, but still easily builds up into a circa 27/28lb complete bike which I think is reasonable for a thrashable trail bike of which only 2 frames have ever broken (1 was broken by Solamanda of this forum and I can't remember who broke the other 1).
HTTP404 - Member".....I don't see much point in carrying around that excess frame weight or fork travel if I don't need it......"
HTTP404, if you can notice it when riding you should turn pro.
How about something different? Brodie Catalyst, Tange Prestige double butted frame and a few reasonable bits hanging from it.
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HTTP404, if you can notice it when riding you should turn pro.
Says the man who sells heavy bike frames... 😉
harryflashman - MemberMboy - I probably should have clarified that in the OP. Almost exclusively XC and singletrack. Not unduly worried about weight, so I'm not discounting the PA just yet.
harry, good as the PA is, it's definitely a bit overkill for just XC and singletrack riding really. OF course it can be built into a 27lb bike, or less, but if you started off with a Cotic Soul, Genesis Altitude, Voodoo Bizango or a Rock Lobster 853, the bike would be over a lb lighter still, and more suitable IMO.
HTTP404, if you can notice it when riding you should turn pro.
Perhaps a little outrageous a statement Mike. I'm certainly no pro, not even close, but I could tell the difference reasonably easily between 2 frames when riding if one was 20% heavier than the other!
We need Lecht Rocks here to enthuse about the nounces of the ride somewhat 🙄
I've owned some really lovely hardtails. Really lovely ones but I'd have to say 456. Sorry. Why is it soooo cheap?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Steel, machined, posted round the world. Duty/tax etc and competitors pricing...yet still cheap. Cheap doesnt equal a cheap ride.
Why is it soooo cheap?
Because it's mass produced in Taiwan, made of fairly basic cro-mo tubing, and is not quite as well finished as some other models?
And it's a tad heavy. 51/2 lbs or so?
Isnt as quite well finished? Mines naked/lacquered. Welds all look spot on to me. Name any other frames on here that arent produced in Taiwan etc? In general steel frames come 'light'? 🙄
I'm not defending on-one, I didnt like my ti456 although real riders in mags gave it tops marks. I'm just an average rider who doesnt have to care about damaging the frame etc. Its got safe handling, lowish but sadly not gear-queery enough 🙁 but oh well. I didnt like the Cove Handjob either. Its also mass produced but due to the distributor cut etc priced quite highly.
gingerflash-where did you get the chromag? dunno who distributes them in the UK do you?
scott_mcavennie2:
I don't get all this Prince Albert heavy nonsense. Mine's built for strength rather than lightweight xc spec. I run 721 wheels, SLX cranks, Menja forks (more of a budget choice rather than strength) and no carbon anywhere.
Comes in at 28 lbs which I think is a good weight for an "aggressive" steel hardtail.
I agree with you Scott. It is also very subjective, my previous bike to my Alpine (pikes etc) was a RL853 with Reba Races etc, and yet i still do the same distances and the same speeds/averages. At some point the rider has to become an important factor in all this, i.e if you want a fast bike then pedal harder.
Pipedream Sirius 631?
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Sanderson Life?
Perhaps a little outrageous a statement Mike. I'm certainly no pro, not even close, but I could tell the difference reasonably easily between 2 frames when riding if one was 20% heavier than the other!
Really?
If you built up two bikes with the same geometries and same components, but had one of them have a frame thats 1lb heavier than the other, I bet you couldnt tell the difference. 1lb is **** all when you consider the combined weight of rider and bike.
The way you say 20% makes it sound like alot, but it would be about 0.5% of the combined weight.
But the lighter frame would probbly have lighter, thinner walled tubing, which would have a noticable effect on the ride. I've heard people say the 853 Inbred is a nicer ride than the DN6 one, frinstance. Same geometry etc. Maybe only half a pound difference in weight, though. My 853 Lobster definitely feels 'quicker' and sproingier (it's a word) than a DN6 Inbred I tried once. Subtle differences, though.
I'm not a 'pro rider', btw...
mboy - Member
Perhaps a little outrageous a statement Mike. I'm certainly no pro, not even close, but I could tell the difference reasonably easily between 2 frames when riding if one was 20% heavier than the other!
Not that outrageous, mboy. If I rode a 27lb bike and then a 28lb bike back to back, I probably wouldn't be able to tell which was lighter/heavier, just which felt better to ride. That might have nothing whatsoever to do with the weight, more about geometry and personal preference.
RudeBoy - MemberBut the lighter frame would probbly have lighter, thinner walled tubing, which would have a noticable effect on the ride.
It'll also dent easier.
Splitting hairs, now, Mr Heavybikes...
Is the OP going to ride the bike, or fall off it all the time/bash it with a hammer?
I've found 853 to be pretty tough. I'd rather ride a lighter bike, than one that 'does not in any way dent as easily'. I don't tend to do a lot of crashing anyway. Too busy looking Skil.
In answer to davidtaylforth:
Yes, I would notice it, certainly on a steel hardtail anyway. Primarily for the reasons that RudeBoy outlined in his answer though. A Steel frame weighing under 4.5lb is going to be springier/flexier/more forgiving almost without doubt than a 5.5lb steel frame is. The only criticisms I've heard of the Dialled PA for instance (from owners) are that it's actually probably a bit too beefy for most of their uses, and it's a little too stiff for a steel frame for XC use, if you compare it to a more "XC oriented" frame such as a Cotic Soul etc. I know my mate likes his lots, but does say it could be slightly more forgiving to ride as it's as stiff as an ally frame practically.
On the weight front alone though, check your maths before replying to a post eh! A 20% drop in frame weight (let's say a lb and a bit) is going to be 4% (or therabouts) of the total weight of the bike, not 0.5%. And yes I'd notice it. You'd certainly notice a lighter front end if you replaced your forks for something that weighs a pound less than the ones you are currently running, I'd notice a lb off the weight of the frame as the back end of the bike (by its very nature, a bike frame contributes more weight to the rear wheel of the bike than the front) would feel lighter than it did previously!
Not that outrageous, mboy. If I rode a 27lb bike and then a 28lb bike back to back, I probably wouldn't be able to tell which was lighter/heavier, just which felt better to ride. That might have nothing whatsoever to do with the weight, more about geometry and personal preference.
I'll agree the difference wouldn't be night and day, but small subtleties would be present I am sure. Though of course being able to tell these would rely on the 2 bikes being built with the same equipment so as not to add any variables into the mix.
It'll also dent easier.
That much I'm not going to disagree with. Lightweight 853 tubed frames can be made plenty strong enough, but with their thin walls they are more susceptible to damage in a crash indeed.
Guys, I know you trying to help, but I am neither worried about the odd pound nor am I going to be really punishing the frame to the point of damage. The frame just has to be fun to ride, able to cope with quite an aggressive riding style and be nice and fast going down the hill. I know, I know, not asking for much. For what it's worth, I have discounted the Cotic becuase of price, and am trying to decide between the On-one inbred, PA and Pipedream Sirius 631.
but does say it could be slightly more forgiving to ride as it's as stiff as an ally frame practically
No its not.
I've moved from a Merlin Malt4 to a PA and the PA is ten times more comfortable than the ally Merlin. I do the same 25 mile loop on either and I'll be loads more beat up at the end of the journey on the Merlin.
As for it being overkill, it seems perfectly suited to the trails I ride down here in surrey, and I'm comfortable knowing that it has plenty more strength in reserve for trips to the alps for instance. A perfect do-it-all hardtail IMO.
The frame just has to be fun to ride, able to cope with quite an aggressive riding style and be nice and fast going down the hill
Then get a PA.
I'm sure the PA is a great bike, and I really like the look of them - but it's not what I'd think the OP needs if he's riding "singletrack and XC".
He does have lots of choice though, as people have suggested: Soul, Handjob, Altitude, Duster, Pipedream, Sanderson.
I'd also give the P7 and On One a swerve myself for weight reasons, and then look for whichever I could get a good deal on.
Edit: to say Harry made his last post after I'd started this - so I'll just shut up.
Can i just add if the OP does not purchase, build up and post a pic of one of the bikes mentioned in this thread, *cough* PA *cough*, in the next week or so then he should be horse whipped! 😉
Can i just add if the OP does not purchase, build up and post a pic of one of the bikes mentioned in this thread, *cough* PA *cough*, in the next week or so then he should be horse whipped!
And let us all have a go on it!
Oh lord, thats pressure. What is this monster I have created?
harryflashman:Oh lord, thats pressure. What is this monster I have created?
STW Lynchmob baby! Passing judgement since time began 
What is this monster I have created?
LOL
Just remember, whatever you buy, it HAS to be chosen by the masses on this forum, you are not allowed to buy anything remotely different or unique, you will do as you're told! Ergo you have no choice but to buy a PA by the sounds of things 😉
Nothing wrong with the PA at all, I think they're great. Just if you don't need the extra heft/strength in reserve cos you're never going to jump it or take it to the Alps etc. then why not save a lb in weight? That's my view on it anyway.
Sanderson breath/ life: Light, cheap and nicely finished. & Dont see that many about. Go for a size smaller thatn you usually would...
Go for the On-one. Tough as beans. The 456 will give you more options to run longer forks if you ever go that route in the future. The only reason you may not like it is cos its so cheap, but whats the problem?
IMHO the other options don't offer much more / look any better / have any more pedigree than the others that you'd pay more for.
[i]I'm sure the PA is a great bike, and I really like the look of them - but it's not what I'd think the OP needs if he's riding "singletrack and XC".[/i]
That's a load of rubbish IMHO
The dialled PA is one of the best all day singletracky XC bikes I've ever had the pleasure to use... it's geometry is very well thought out such that it climbs as well as bikes a bit lighter, you'd be surprised... and at under 30lb with sensible (not too heavy) bits, it's not exactly too heavy anyway, unless you're planning on doing some serious XC racing or something.
Ash - I must admit I haven't ridden a PA, but when I wanted a mid-travel steel hardtail I ruled it out early on because I felt the weight penalty over many of the alternatives meant it was probably overbuilt for my purposes.
And my purposes sounded very similar to the OP's in his original statement of his needs.
Of course you can also see in my previous post how I had already qualified my statement in the light of a crossover post from the OP clarifying his requirements.
HTTP404 - Member
".....I don't see much point in carrying around that excess frame weight or fork travel if I don't need it......"HTTP404, if you can notice it when riding you should turn pro.
In other words you believe in carrying excess frame weight and fork travel when you don't need it?
Mike - sorry, the point still stands. Maybe I could, maybe I couldn't tell the difference ...[i] I actually never said either[/i]. What I said is it's pointless to carry around the excess weight (and fork travel) if you don't need it.
Hopefully, the OP will buy the right bike for the kind of riding he does and not buy an overly-built fashion statement.
Hopefully, the OP will buy the right bike for the kind of riding he does and not buy an overly-built fashion statement.
No-one ever got hurt from being overbiked. That is science as well.
...not sure where the fashion bit comes in tho.
Ash wrote - it's geometry is very well thought out such that it climbs as well as bikes a bit lighter
well apparently that's only true if the lighter bike is only lighter by not more than a pound. 🙂
No-one ever got hurt from being overbiked
That's profound.
[url= http://www.demonframeworks.com ]Demon Frameworks[/url]
Custom frame building - get something that is exactly right for what you ride. Check out the lugged frame on his site - theres not much up yet but he's doing nice things with Reynolds tubing.
HTTP404:That's profound.
No it's FACT.
Not sure if this is going to work, but here goes:
www.flickr.com/photos/countzero1/3319506296/
It doesn't seem to be working, so here's the URL
This is my Inbred earlier today, taken with my phone.
Have to say the comments about a PA or whatever being too much bike is such a lot of pish, granted maybe you don't need the extra strength but that's like saying we don't all need our six inch full sussers, in most cases we don't but they're bloody good fun.
Any of the current steel hardtails are going to be pretty good and everybody seems to love the one they've got, I took my alpine out for its maiden ride today and it was ****in awesome. Get whatever one you like the look off, your unlikely to be disappointed.
Another vote for Cotic here. And a photo in case you forgotten what they look like:
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Used to have a Handjob (the 100mm forks version) and [i]much[/i] prefer the Soul. The long top tube short stem heaps of standover certainly works for me.
Like yourself I went through a period of agonising over what to get but wasn't disappointed.
Is it worth the difference between the likes of a 456 or PA? Dunno.
HTH
HTTP404 - MemberIn other words you believe in carrying excess frame weight and fork travel when you don't need it?
Half a pound on my bike is nothing compared to the 2 stone I'd like to lose from my body.
[i]Have to say the comments about a PA or whatever being too much bike is such a lot of pish, granted maybe you don't need the extra strength but that's like saying we don't all need our six inch full sussers, in most cases we don't but they're bloody good fun.
Any of the current steel hardtails are going to be pretty good and everybody seems to love the one they've got, I took my alpine out for its maiden ride today and it was ****in awesome. Get whatever one you like the look off, your unlikely to be disappointed.[/i]
amen to that 🙂