[Closed] Really?

I wonder how it enhances the precision of a drivetrain?! I imagine that they'll be flying out the door, then.

That looks terrible! Considering most bikes use the little plastic 'dobber' things which do the same job and are far more discreet, I just can't see anyone buying one of those!

What is it? I'm going to need hitting up wih some marketing talk about its advantages before I consider one, even if it is nicely anodised...

Don't forget R&D, profit margins, distributer costs, etc...

still silly expensive though. They were being used in the TdF by one team though (forget which one but saw it on cyclingnews). IIRC it was on carbon frames where the shape/size of the seat tube meant that they couldn't fit a conventional plastic one.

For crying out loud, the retail cost of an item IS NOT BASED ON HOW MUCH IT COST TO MAKE!

It's based on how much then can expect to get for it. If they don't sell, the price will come down. Simple. Would you sell something for £1.10 if you thought you could get £27 for it? Of course not!

It's to keep the chain on the cog? Isn't that what the front mech does?

There'd be a lot of leverage on that single little bolt/pivot at the top too. You'd have to do it up bastard tight wouldn't you?

Isn't that what the front mech does?

On a road bike on bumpy surfaces like cobbles, no not always.

I know what you are getting at, but since when did the cost of something really reflect the price of manufacture?

Take Muc-Off & stuff as an example. They must manufacturer it in 1000s of litres at a time, probably at a cost of tens of pence per litre. People quite happily buy it for £6 a bottle.

Much prefer my plastic version which I only paid, er, £120 for 😳
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Hey, it does the job and looks good.

For crying out loud, the retail cost of an item IS NOT BASED ON HOW MUCH IT COST TO MAKE!

Haha, are you really trying to tell me that the amortised cost of marketing and R+D for a component designed to fit a few differnt front mechs and a variety of frames would equate to that much though? Even if they see only 25% of the retail cost at the factory, thats barmy.

I see your point to an extent, a small minority might pay it, but most surely see straight through it and realise they are being taken for mugs.

IF the associated costs of marketing/R+D are so high that the product gets unrealistically expensive, don't make it. Patent it if possible, and sell the rights to sram/shimano/campag for them to encorporate it in to their product. If they don't want it, its a duff idea!

Take Muc-Off as an example. They must manufacturer it in 1000s of litres at a time, probably at a cost of tens of pence per litre. People quite happily buy it for £6 a bottle.

Muc-off initially required formulation and presumebly a factory certified to deal with the chemicals involved (irrespective of whether they're dangerous or not). I would also presume that selling a chemically derived product in the UK requires some degree of accreditation, and that people are willing to pay more to a trusted brand to ensure they don't burn their eyes out/melt the kids/poison the cat.

To me, this product stinks of someone trying to make a fast buck since they know cyclists are weak willed and deep pocketed when it comes to anodised aluminium!!

On a road bike on bumpy surfaces like cobbles, no not always.

Isn't that what riding cobbles in the big ring is for? Foot down and never mind the jelly vision.

Yes but that isn't guaranteed which is why you'll see almost every bike at Paris Roubaix and similar fitted with some sort of anti-drop device.

As soon as I read the first post I knew it was going to be for those thingummys. I saw them in my Wiggle newsletter and scratched my head for some time thinking why I would possibly need one. Easy...I don't

YOu appear to have completely forgotten that Wiggle will buy it for £15, then the distributor will buy it from the brand for £7.5. So the part can only cost £1 to make if they want to make it worth their while doing it.

Mowing my lawn only uses 10ps worth of electricity to do, so will you do it for 20p? of course not you idiot, you would want £20 to get out of bed.

Jesus sniff the capitalism at work

(PS alloy fromas sold for £500 probbably only cost £50 to make, and ive just got some 2010 OEM boxxer races £900 RRP for £190 factory price, does that make them a rip off????)

I am more baffled by the fact that BenKitchener seems to be so angry about all this.

Generally, with bike parts you can buy expensive, from someone who sinks a lot of money into production costs, marketing, finishing, QC, good warranty backup, etc, or you can buy something plain but usually as functional from Taiwan. In this case it is a very specialist item but with more possible performance advantages than faux-carbon bottle cages and the like.

So perchance Mr Kitchener is angry because he wants one of these doohickeys, yet there is no M:Part or Superstar equivalent? Yet apparently they are also the "solution to a problem I've never had". So I am at a loss to explain the source of his annoyance.

I do have to admit though that his knowledge of engineering and business is making me slightly moist.

Haha, are you really trying to tell me that the amortised cost of marketing and R+D for a component designed to fit a few differnt front mechs and a variety of frames would equate to that much though?

No. To clarify - the retail price of an item has nothing to do with how much it costs do make, design or market. It only depends on how much people will pay. If costs are such that your profit margin is too low - don't make it. People will pay for what it's worth to them, not what it should've cost to make. For example, Dirtworkers are just a pump in a can but they are so damn useful that they sell well. Likewise Oakley shades.

People buying things with a big markup (such as the shades) could be called stupid, but to be honest I buy Oakleys because they work better for me than other shades and I can afford it. How much Mr Oakley makes is nothing to do with me.

I am sure that Muc Off will have taken all the stuff you have mentioned into account & will still be making it for pennies & selling it for £'s. The start-up costs will be insignificant once you get thousands of mountain bikers paying loads for a product that costs next to nothing to make.

erm.....what molgrips (and everyone else) said......

YOu appear to have completely forgotten that Wiggle will buy it for £15, then the distributor will buy it from the brand for £7.5. So the part can only cost £1 to make if they want to make it worth their while doing it.

Please see;

Even if they see only 25% of the retail cost at the factory, thats barmy.

(PS alloy fromas sold for £500 probbably only cost £50 to make, and ive just got some 2010 OEM boxxer races £900 RRP for £190 factory price, does that make them a rip off????)

Probably 😉 But the costs associated to the design, development, marketing are considerably higher when producing a fork or frame. Taking a frame for example, to be competative you'll not only need to define the geometry/ layout and find a factory to pump them out for you, but you'll at least need to show some consideration to strength optimisation, fatigue life, manufacturing process design (there will be as much of this as the actual product design)etc, not to mention the legal implications of producing a product which if faulty/flawed, could in extreme cases cause death.

you idiot

Oh, and I might charge 10p for the electric, I might even add a percentage for the administrative cost of supplying the electric, making it more like 15p. But I would then charge accordingly for the use of hardware if my own (purchase + maintenance), a labour rate, travel expenses and liability insurance (amongst other things) so the bottom line may well look more like £20. But i could demonstrate how I might come up with such a number.

I am more baffled by the fact that BenKitchener seems to be so angry about all this.

Not realy angry Mr A, but i too found this adversited in my inbox this morning and was astounded by the product being offered vs. cost. I only ever drop the chain when the wheels are out and the bikes in the car, maybe its different on a big road ring?

Kitchener

WOW THEY LOOK AWSOME.

I'll get one of each colour..

People buying things with a big markup (such as the shades) could be called stupid, but to be honest I buy Oakleys because they work better for me than other shades and I can afford it. How much Mr Oakley makes is nothing to do with me.

So I guess what we're talking about is the percieved value in a product. I don't see any operational value in this product; I don't watch much TDF but on the times I have, I don't remember chain de-railments being an issue. And as i've pointed out, I really can't see the where the value is 'engineered' into the product.

If you think it does have operational/functional/intrinsic/emotional value, fair enough.

I suppose it depends on;

a) How much like some Northern European road club member you want your bike to resemble, and
b) If you think like that you probably read the Rouleur, and
c) If that's the case, then it probably seems like a bargain...

If you think it does have operational/functional/intrinsic/emotional value, fair enough.

Zackly. Only time will tell. If it's on wiggle for 75% off in three months' time, then we will know it didn't sell. I would assume someone's done at least a modicum of research tho before going to market.

They pay me lots of money to sit here and write the odd bit of code between surfing. Is that worth it? Someone thinks so 🙂

They pay me lots of money

Apart from that bit, same here, so I'd better go manufacture something of value 😀

For crying out loud, the retail cost of an item IS NOT BASED ON HOW MUCH IT COST TO MAKE!

In my industry it is. What do you make?

HAHA you dont understand the irony of arguing with an idiot about pointless things they dont understand.

I don't remember chain de-railments being an issue.

As Clubber says there are much rougher road races, like the Paris-Roubaix. I can imagine it being very useful on a CX bike, and given that a roller-type chain device starts at around £50 it could almost look like a bargain if you were looking for a hassle-free way of keeping your chain on.

I would agree that looking at what you get for your money someone has got their sums very wrong, but I cannot bring myself to care as much as you.

Things are only worth what people are prepared to pay for them.

You might be able to carve a bike completely out of stone, all hand made and with beautiful attention to detail. But no ones going to give you any money for it unless they want it as an ornament. Equally, you can set up a factory to spew out 50 steel frames a day very cheaply, and people will buy them from you. How much they will pay depends on quality of the frame, but also quality of the marketing and advertising etc.

I could make those for well under that price. But as said, its not just the cost of materials & manufacturing a business has to cover.

I could make them for under £5, possibly with anodizing, but would need to make 50-100+. I'm not a business therefore probably wouldn't do it, as I probably couldn't sell 100 !! Same for the universal emergency mech hanger.

if you apply that thought then a bike is worth about £40... if you do not take into account, R&D, Testing, Marketing, Packaging, Transport, Rent, Electric, Gas, Labour, Other staffing costs, Telephone, storage, equipment, tooling etc etc etc. If you don’t need an item then it can appear to be worthless and over priced!. I agree it is prob a wasted design that people will not buy, but only being worth £1.10 taking into account all the costs involved, and if it is a small Co making it with less lines they will have a higher mark up!

What do you make

Money.. occasionally 🙂

Some industries might sell on a cost-plus basis. Many don't, I know for a fact.

You know, some folk pay thousands for a bit of metal and a stone. That worth it?

I know that most aluminum frames that come out of Taiwan get sold to the big companies without any paint for about $9 each.

Yet how much do we pay for them?

I know that most aluminum frames that come out of Taiwan get sold to the big companies without any paint for about $9 each.

Absolute total utter shite.

the cheapest I've ever found an aluminium frame was US$33 factory price in China. Plain gauge, basic, painted.

Just what I've heard.

the cheapest I've ever found an aluminium frame was US$33 factory price in China. Plain gauge, basic, painted.

Just what I've heard.

Poor defence for repeating rubbish.
When I was little I got told there were pixies at the bottom of the garden.

My lad is riding around on the $33 frame right now. Passed a CEN test. I didn't buy any.

Taiwan frames are at least double that for the most basic ones.

Wait, are you talking single units or bulk? I was talking bulk.

Wait, are you talking single units or bulk? I was talking bulk.

Please - you are making yourself look silly.

$33 painted price based on 500pc order. I'd consider that a reasonble quantity and wouldn't expect significant discount . Jigging/fixtures were chargeable seperately/in house standard so of no consequence.

I am? Wouldnt want that. 😀

I just heard they were $9 from a very reliable source. Just you getting so upset about what I said made me doubt it. Maybe you arent wrong then..

Maybe you arent wrong then..

Tell your mate who can get 'em for $9, I'll have 500. You sell me them for $18.
If you can sort it, I'll send you the money.

LOL. I think that your reliable source isn't very reliable...

Back to the original bit of kit. It is very useful to have an anti chain-drop device on a road bike. I've certainly got one on mine, given I used to get chain drop (and got a chewed stay) on my old bike and wanted to look after the new one. Is different to on a mountain bike where it might be the vibrations dropping the chain - with a road bike it's when shifting rings, or possible if you back pedal a bit when in big ring and big cogs that the chain tends to come off. Not quite sure why you don't get the same problem on mountain bikes, but you don't - I'd guess the big gap between rings on a compact probably doesn't help (though I got it on a standard chainset).

Anyway, those of us with round tubes use something that clamps onto the seat tube. I have a Deda Fang - Jump Stop is also common. However even with my very conventional looking round tubed bike the bottom of the seat tube is flared, which meant I had to file down one side of the clamp a bit and use a longer bolt to get it to fit. Loads of bikes now don't have anything like a round tube here, and people with these still want a device. Lots of discussion over on weight weenies about similar home-made devices which pro teams have been using for a while.

Yes it might be expensive, but it's a small price to pay to prevent damage to a £1k+ carbon frame. Of course you're not obliged to buy one - I'm sure there will be plenty who will though. Personally if I was getting a new frame with non-round tubes I might grumble about the price, but I'd buy one if there was no cheaper option (I'd guess somebody else might come out with something if there's enough demand to make it worth while).

For $9 i think you are talking about steel frames. 2 years ago i saw a advert for $6 a frame for crappy steel frames by the container load. Wouldnt happen now as steel costs alot more.

Doubt they were any good!

As brant says ali frames start around $60 for a nice quality one in Taiwan, and upwards for features and better tubing. Cheaper stuff from china and vietnam.