[Closed] Re-built a mates wheel..

Never do business with friends or family.....dont charge him, just ask him to get the beers in after your next ride!

You get some kind of "thanks" and it doesnt make things too formal, especially seeing as you cant point the finger about how his wheel got knocked out....

Just my take....

I already charged him beforehand, too young for beers after a ride....

Have you done it before ?

I've only built one wheel before, I got it to go straight but it would keep going out of line. I just couldnt get the spokes to tension evenly. To be honest I just did for a laugh so wasnt too surprised.

I took it shop to get it rebuilt properly and the guy there said it was nt bad for a first attempt and was surprised I want it rebuilt considering the cost. But I was doing a big ride in a couple of weeks so I wanted it perfect.

I'd be surprised if your first wheel went perfectly ? If its not your first wheel why would you be asking here ? To be honest I would nt have charged a mate to build a wheel unless I KNEW for sure I could do it right.

I built my own wheels before, they lasted 6 months without any adjustment before a crash at stainburn caused the front to knock out.

So I KNEW how to build them up correctly from past experience.

Plus all the spokes were tensioned evenly. He rode up and down my street numerous times to test the build, I even rode up and down on it trying to purposefully bend it. No luck.

Which is what I dont understand. How it rides fine one minute when I'm purposefully trying to put it out of true. Then the next minute when he's JRA it knocks out. Coincidence?

Fair enough, but I can believe it went out of line just riding along and he is telling the truth.

From the sound of it you've built 3 wheels you did a good job on the first 2 and the third wheel you didnt do such a good job unfortunately.

Unless of course you mate has a tendency to 10 foot drops or something but you havent mentioned that.

Which is what I dont understand. How it rides fine one minute when I'm purposefully trying to put it out of true. Then the next minute when he's JRA it knocks out. Coincidence?

This is exactly like the wheel I built. I needed more practise wheel building.

From the sound of it you've built 3 wheels you did a good job on the first 2 and the third wheel you didnt do such a good job unfortunately.

My own wheels I built were a worse job, spoke tension was uneven but they still stayed true. His build was so much better.

Just like to be clear Im not having a go.

I have no idea what your friend is like, maybe he's a pathological liar and rides like a g*t, I dont know.

What your asking though is it possible that a wheel built by a amateur/beginner wheel builder who has built 3 wheels, to suddenly lose tension and go out of line, while just riding along.

The answer to this is most definitely yes in my experience.

Just because you rode it round the street a few times doesnt mean the spokes wont gradually losen.

If you knew you built them well, would you be asking?

I will see when he returns it back, If I believe its not a problem with how its built then I wont do any more work on it. And if hes not happy he can have the tenner back and he can send it in to a bike shop and pay 20 quid.

seems reasonable to me

If you knew you built them well, would you be asking?

I'm just asking whether or not you would carry out the extra work if you didn't believe it was your problem.

A couple of thoughts from my 20ish wheels built experience:

1) Waaaaay easier to build onto a brand new rim, even if hub and spokes are not new.

2) Rlepecha, were your own wheels on new rims?

3) Was your mate's wheel a handbuilt one or did it come on his bike? Unless you buy a really nice (read £800+ for hardtail) bike, the wheels will have been tensioned by a machine in a hurry and the tensions and stresses on the rim may have been all over the place on the original build. So even tensions may make it straight until the first really hard corner before the rim tries to go back to the shape it wants to be...

4) Do you squeeze the spokes as you go? In my experience this really helps. The wheelpro e-book explains this in great detail.

5) Were your rims you built for yourself a lot burlier than your mate's? I find downhill rims vastly easier and quicker to get dead straight end really really tight than xc ones.

6) Oil your nipples! I leave mine in a little pot of 5wt oil or winter chain lube before I build. It's messier and sounds counter-intuitive but like gresing your bolts, the lube gives you more reliable feedback from the spoke key, allows a tiny bit more tightness before they strt pinging and creaking, and mitigates a little against spokes 'pinging' out of tension.

1) agreed

2) Old rims

3) Machine, rim was straight by itself though

4) yes

5) weaker rims than his, much weaker.

Which just adds to my concern on why its all gone to pot. I did everything by the book so to speak.

Did you bed in the wheel properly?

Oh and does he ride much radder than you?

i can well imagine a wheel lasting less time under some of my mate's cornering 'habits' than mine!

Did you bed in the wheel properly?

pressed all spokes while being rebuilt, then put on floor and jumped on the outer rim while suspended by the hub, did both sides. Did not budge a 1mm.

Oh and does he ride much radder than you?

i can well imagine a wheel lasting less time under some of my mate's cornering 'habits' than mine!

I would say I ride harder than him.

Did you bed in the wheel properly?

read sheldon brown's guide to wheel building ( online - google ). he recommended using a screwdriver or old crank ( or something ) to lever the spokes around a bit, then re-checking the trueness.
you should sort it for him FOC. should only take a few minutes. charge 15 quid next time - insurance against this sort of thing. 😉

jumped on the outer rim

? Are you serious ? Generally a strong firm push down does the trick.

exactly. I over tested it for that exact reason. If it could withstand my jumping on it then how the hell would you knock it out?

I will fix the problem if it has nothing to do with a stripped nipple etc, If it has a component problem I wont fix it as It would mean using my spares.

I think you should give him his £10 back regardless of the issue and set about putting it right for free.

You do not come across as being experienced enough to be charging people for your wheel building services, even if it only £10. Fair enough to do a few for friends to gain experience and then maybe once you've done a couple of dozen you could start to think about charging for them but right now all he's done is pay you to experiment on his wheel.

It comes across that you aren't fully experienced with wheelbuilding and are gathering skills, you surely wouldn't charge a stranger to build wheels for them when you aren't all that experienced so it seems off charging a friend for the pleasure.
It doesn't sound like the spokes were properly stress relieved and re-tensioned over and over until it was no longer required so after a bit of riding it would only take a few spokes close to each other to loose tension, through settling into the new hub and un-twisting, and the wheel would be all over the place.
You could offer to have a go at truing the wheel, he is your friend after all, and offer him the £10 back so he can put it towards getting the wheel fixed by a professional.

I have not experimented on his wheel in anyway at all. Concidering the wheels I built for myself I built up, trued, took apart, built up, trued about 4 times just to gain experience. I charged him because time aint free, I also took cassette and disc of the wheel put it on one of my spares(which he rode on for a week) and re fitted the cassette and disc etc. In all essence hes had the bloody job for free cos just fitting a cassette and disc at the bike shop would be a tenner.

about the stress relieving the spokes, as already said I jumped on the rim numerous times, Also pushed the spokes together numerous times to relieve the stress, the spokes never got loose and the wheel always stayed true. I cant see how a bike shop would have done a better job.

If you ask for people's opinions, don't be offended if they give them to you 🙄

I cant see how a bike shop would have done a better job.

baron's advice up there ^^ is pretty much right.

EDIT: and charging friends to build wheels? Hmm, either offer to do it because they're a friend, or recommend they take it to a wheel builder to do.

R.lepecha - Member
...I cant see how a bike shop would have done a better job.

There's a difference between knowing how to do a job and having the skill to do it properly.

Yes there is difference between knowing how to do it and having the skill to do it.

I knew and my parents knew I wouldnt give him the wheel if I didnt beleive it was correct myself, I spent about 3 hours building it, truing it, tensioning it, truing it, tensioning it, truing it. untill it was perfect.

You seem to give the view that I have little experience in building wheels, I dont but I know how to do it so I spent ages on that wheel using my know how so that it was correct and up to sufficient standard. Once you have some skill all they do is make the job faster and more efficient. Anyone could build a wheel up and true it if you gave them a whole day to do so, Thats if they could be bothered to tensions correct. Which I was bothered so I did spend the time on it.

Well done for trying to help your mate. £10 doesn't nearly cover the hassle/time so you might have saved yourself some grief by either not charging (so you don't feel obliged to sort now) or charging 'properly' so there'd be some contingency if things needed sorting post build.

You're committed now so sort it out unless you can demonstrate beyond doubt that it's down to materials. I very much doubt you can do that so you'll have to do the right thing and correct a job you've accepted payment for. Harsh lesson, but that's what happens when you accept commissions especially from friends.

Remember; 'a friend in need is a pain in the ar$e'! 🙂

give him his ten quid back, tell him to take it to a bike shop. You spent three hours truing? the hassle youre getting/got is not covered by ten quid.

Simples.

I've obviously missed something - what the hell have your parents got to do with it?!

Because my parents know what Im like, They know I wouldnt give someone something if I thought it was wrong. I think from now on i'll just build/true my own wheels because I know theres bugger all wrong with how I build from my own wheels.

I used to help a few mates out fixing their bikes for free but have now knocked it on the head as quite often a 30min job would take 2-3 hours, and quite often I was fitting new cables/brake pads but forgetting to be paid for them.

If any mates ask me now I always decline due to time limitations and ask them to take it to a LBS.

I have also built wheels for myself but don't consider myself an expert and would be too worried about come back to build some for a mate.

I think everyone here has tried, albeit in a gentle and sensitive way, to help you understand the basic principles behind being paid for providing a service. Your responses are fairly typical of a young person, but no less annoying. So I'd suggest the following;

You were paid for a job. Your job wasn't good enough. Regardless as to whether your mate was out on the trail, or just bobbing along the road, the wheel went out of kilter just after you built it for him. If the same happened in a shop I'd be back like a shot. If you want to play at being a wheel builder, don't take money for it and fiddle around with your own wheels, not putting others at risk with your ego.

Why are you looking everywhere else for an explanation? Why not start with yourself; did you make any mistakes? Is there anything you've overlooked? The bottom line is that in receiving payment you become a service provider, so you are accountable for the quality of your work. I've been teaching long enough to know that kids like you simply don't have the ability to self-assess - you look for other variables as an excuse. Do you really believe that it couldn't possibly be your fault? Honestly?

And what's all this 'parents' crap? Are you kidding? Seriously? Are you going to wheel that one out whenever you screw up in the future - [i]"...Er, yeah, the car crash couldn't possibly have been my fault because my parents wouldn't let me take the car out if they thought I'd prang it..."[/i] You sound like Vicky Pollard. Man up.

Give your mate his money back. Let him take his wheel to someone who's paid to do it and good at it. Learn from experience.

EDIT:

I realise this sounds harsh, but sugar-coating the facts will not help you. Good luck with whatever you decide to do. I'm off to shout at some year 10's...

Bullheart=less coffee for you in the staff room young man 🙂

It's beyond giving the money back now IMO. Strictly speaking, he's contracted to do the job and should make good the mess so far....

Bailing out because it's getting too difficult is not an option. Perhaps Mummy could help as she's such an authority on wheel building? 🙂

That last bit was just messing but sort it out, he's a friend remember?

Bottom line - get more experience before you start charging for your services.... and don't charge your friends for building!

Whenever I have built some wheels for friends, we actually sat down together and went through the process as they wanted to start learning...

I'm far from an expert, but all it takes is one gentle push in the right direction, and people gain the confidence to try building themselves.

I charged him because time aint free

So you don't mind if we each charge you £2 for the free advice then? Do you also charge your gf for a quickie? 😆

Here's some more free advice: Reconsider your mercenary attitude to life. Give your time and help to friends and family for free. Give him his money back and apologise.

Re-using old spokes rarely works. They lose tension and snap for more easily than new ones.

(But if it's gone out so badly out that it's rubbing on the frame already than either he's had a huge crash (hint - does he have blood all over his face) or the build wasn't up to scratch... Sorry.)

Give him his money back and get an application in for customer relations at Superstar.

I think we won't get any more from the OP 'til school finishes now.

My 2p - even if the OP did nothing wrong he's got a moral duty to give a refund and it might be educational to accompany his mate to a bike shop and see what their view of the cause of the problem is.

R.lepecha - Member
Yes there is difference between knowing how to do it and having the skill to do it...

I wasn't having a go at you, but it's important to recognise the difference. I sympathise with your predicament - at your age I was buying dud road bikes, fixing them up and selling them. I gave a 3 month no questions money back guarantee.

Talk to any bike shop and you'll be amazed at how much damage a bike can sustain "just riding along".

The probability is your mate is a lying skunk and is doing you. You've just got to swallow it and get on with life. He's a customer, the sort you don't want. Give him his money back and send him to a bike shop.

Price your work to allow for having to do it again a % of the times because no matter how well you do it, someone will break it and then come back with a JRA.

did you make any mistakes? Is there anything you've overlooked?

I checked it and my dad checked it(he also rides bikes, has ridden them for the best part of his life)

He also thought the wheel was built properly.

I am going to re-true said wheel tonight and if he comes back again with it knocked out I will refund and tell him to take it elsewhere.

out of interest how did he break the hub?

if the rim was badly out of true/damaged at the same time you'll never be able to build it back up so it stays straight and spoke tension will be all over the place.

Just out of interest what did you use to check spoke tensions?

I've been building wheels for too long to remember and I never charge mates form doing their wheels, if they decide to get me a few beers in return all the better. I agree with many that 3 wheels is not enough to start charging for your service and as such you should've been doing it for the experience

I am going to re-true said wheel tonight and if he comes back again with it knocked out I will refund and tell him to take it elsewhere.

correct approach.
without wishing to put your dad down, he might ride bikes, but unless he's built wheels, his opinion is as good as anyone else....
also, go read what sheldon brown has written about relieving tension in spokes, as previously suggested.

Had a read of the Sheldon Brown article, He says ''Some wheelbuilders do this by flexing the whole wheel'' to tension the spokes, I did that did I not? Jumping on the rim seems like a decent amount of flexing of the rim...

Jumping on the rim seems like a good way to un-pretzel a wheel in an emergency situation out on the trail, so you can get home. Otherwise it seems a bit over the top to relieve the tension. When most folks I've seen have done wheels they've just used upper body weight and pushed against the floor.

You can tighten bolts by jumping on a long handled spanner but it's a pretty crap idea and is more likely to damage them than prove everything is OK.

Time might not be free but then again money doesn't change hand without obligations 😎

I already charged him beforehand, too young for beers after a ride....

What? I was swapping fork services for meth-amphetamine when I was ten years old!

i have built around 8 wheels for myself. I wouldn't dream of charging anyone for my time/ skills. I would be pleased that they gave me another wheel to hone my skills on.

give the lad his tenner back.

Here is what I suggest matey. True the wheel back up for him and thn go out a decent off road ride with him. Get him to do his normal riding and maybe a few bunny hops and jumps.
If the wheel is still perfectly straight after a couple of hours then it's fair to say you have done a decent job.

If however the wheel is like an egg I think you need to give you matey his money back and apologise.

If your mate does a 10 foot drop off though as part of his normal riding then maybe it is he who needs to apologise to you.

His wheel looks something like [img] [/img] (photo of my wheel after crash I spoke about earlier)

I have de-tensioned every spoke as the rim was not pulling back straight. I am going to strip the wheel, try straighten the rim as it is really quite bent then start again.

He was running a 29'er tube in it, could this cause excess stress on the rim?

Unless that photo is showing an odd perspective I'd say that looks knackered. If it were an emergency get you home measure I'd try straightening it out but as a long termer I'd not bother, new rim.

It can take years to become fully skilled in a proffesion or trade so after buiding a few wheels doesn't make you a wheelbuilder.If you new as much as you think you know you wouldn't be asking why/what happened on here would you? just my point of view btw it's only by making mistakes that we learn.but one that doesn't involve cost is a bit easier to swallow.

Unless that photo is showing an odd perspective I'd say that looks knackered. If it were an emergency get you home measure I'd try straightening it out but as a long termer I'd not bother, new rim.

Assuming thats not de-tensioned and the builder has some skill I'd say that was recoverable,

I've built a fair few wheels of my own now, never had one fail even used in trials bikes with my 100kg on top. Still wouldnt charge a mate to build one and love the chance to pass on the techniques to mates over a drink/evening. I used to build the odd one for a bike shop and never had one returned, but my skills were nothing on the pro builder we called in for "good" wheelsets.

Re-using old spokes rarely works. They lose tension and snap for more easily than new ones.

I'd have to disagree there, it;s fine if the spokes are not damaged. My current wheelset has spokes in from 1996 that have been used in 4 wheels, none of which failed or de-trued despite alpine fun and my lack of skill lol. Paid servie though - new spokes, not worth the risk unless specifically demanded.

I love how everyone is jumping on the op. Typical stw. Building a wheel for £10 could so easily be described as enterprising and helpful, why not? Totally different to doing so when you're working.

And just because no one has destroyed your wheels doesn't make you a skilled builder.

OP if the rim is not pulling straight then yes the rim is too bent. Straightening it may work, it may not. Give it a go.

No one can know whether the original build was ok or not. All that is required is high and even tension, it's not rocket science. I've destroyed a "properly built" factory wheel by bunny hoppIng on a test ride - it was a crap rim.

Re-using old spokes rarely works. They lose tension and snap for more easily than new ones.

disagree. IME reused spokes are often easier to get to a consistent tension, as they've already been stress relieved. Reusing old rims is more problematic.

OP if the rim is not pulling straight then yes the rim is too bent. Straightening it may work, it may not. Give it a go.

its not quite as bad as the photo, because on that photo with my wheel it was bent lets say half of the wheel, his is 3/4 straight and a section that sits about 1 inch or so out.

I am going to try sort it for him, I did tell him that it may not work though.. Any views on whether the 29er tube could have caused it because of the extra pressure on the section that has the buldge?

Ooh I missed that amateur hour gem. It's pish.

Re using old spokes is fine but it helps if you orientate them in the same way as previous and of course clean up the threads.

Re using an old rims is fine if it's straight.

R.lepecha, it definitely wasn't the 29er tube that did it...

If I were you, I'd both give him the money back and try to fix it. By fixing it you might be able to find out what was wrong. I don't think it's fair to say you earned your 10 quid by taking the cassette and chain off and putting them back on another bike, etc. In this kind of situation it's much more important to prove you're a fair person to do business with than to earn that 10 pounds (and you might get more jobs coming your way if you can fix it and the person is happy with your work) And don't jump on the wheel this time! It isn't meant to withstand 60kg in that direction on the rim! (Kneel beside it and push down with your upper body weight)

cynic-al - Member
Ooh I missed that amateur hour gem.

Ooooooh, the ironing. 🙂 Has that nastly black scab cleared up yet? 😆

Boblo

I've built more wheels than you've had hot dinners. I've also made more functioning brake mounts using carbon fibre than you. I'm happy to try stuff like bodges, but that's different to advising others on the basis of guesswork, hearsay or nonsense.

So stick it up your hoop 😛

He now has the wheel back. I striped it, straightened it, spoked up, trued up. Then using the Sheldon Brown method I tensioned all the spokes, then trued again, then tensioned again, then trued again until it stopped being knocked out of true slightly.

Then I went round the rim a few times using the same method to make sure. After that I pushed on the rim round the outside a few times, checked alignment then pushed a few more times.

Spoke tension is pretty even again.

I have definitely done everything by the book this time...

Good luck:)

Moral of the story - there's nothing wrong with using old parts like spokes and rims, but if you don't know their history, the results may be unpredictable.

I reuse old spokes and rims, but I wouldn't build a wheel like that for someone else unless they were prepared to accept that.

I reuse old spokes and rims, but I wouldn't build a wheel like that for someone else unless they were prepared to accept that.

He knew it was using old spokes and rim.

TBH OP it does sound like you know what you are doing.

Good karma for putting the wheel right.

Did you spot what had caused the wheel to go out of true so quickly?

No I could not pin point the issue. Not quite sure what caused it, I think when the tube was fitted(wrong size) it had about 20-25psi in it and he has bounced the wheel up a curb or something causing a rather large shock through the wheel and maybe unfortunatly it was where the tube bulged and the tyre was even softer at that point. So basically he cracked the rim on something solid without noticing.

Thats the only explanation I could think off. I cannot think of any other valid reason why it would have done what it did.

Its now got a 26 inch tube in it pumped to around 35psi so that should stop any chance of what I said above..

I mean if now its built to the Sheldon Brown ways of doing it I cannot see any reason why the wheel would walk out of line due to a wheel building issue.. I mean after all, Sheldon is a legend of bike maintainence.

I doubt that the tube itself was a contributing factor although a tyre pressure of 20psi certainly could be if he was riding straight at kerbs without at least unweighting the front end. The important thing is that you did right by your mate and hopefully you can be confident that if he knocks it out of true again that you've not missed anything and that he is a clumsy oaf.

I mean after all, Sheldon is a legend of bike maintainence.

Yep, he certainly was. However following his guidelines doesn't make you or I an expert. It helps us to avoid some of the pitfalls but there is no substitute for years of experience.

It was his rear wheel so it would me more bunny hop over curb but not hop far enough, which he has done many times before...

Agreed experience plays a big part, I did spend about 7-8 hours of online research into wheel building before I even took my first wheel apart. I think I almost read every single page on how to build a wheel... I wasnt going to start a job that I didnt understand. Once I understood the physics and mechanics behind it I knew what to do.

cynic-al - Member
Ooh I missed that amateur hour gem.

That really hurt my feelings, man.

[quote=R.lepecha]Agreed experience plays a big part, I did spend about 7-8 hours of online research into wheel building before I even took my first wheel apart

LOL !

They mean practical experience actually building them, not reading! I've built about 10 pairs of wheels, and still consider myself very inexperienced...

looks like a badly tensioned wheel that sprung in that photo to me.

"Thats the only explanation I could think off. I cannot think of any other valid reason why it would have done what it did. "

read above !

oh and in the words of dave gorman -" i was with you when you said research but you lost all credit when you said "on the internet""

I did some research on wheel building and realised that the LBS was good value for money.

Wheel building is something I might get into when I’m retired and I have a massive beard.

looks like a badly tensioned wheel that sprung in that photo to me.

That was my own wheel.It was definitely not bad tensions that knocked it out, I came down bars sideways onto a rock with it.. Ran it for 6 months before that happened.

R.lepecha:

Try looking up the difference between tacit and explicit knowledge. I reckon wheelbuilding is an activity that is mostly tacit knowledge maybe by as much as 70:30.