[Closed] Ramblers on Forestry MTB Trails

I've had an "issue" on the last drop of the North face trail in the lakes. A family walking down the route with a dog (not on a lead) they seemed surprised when I came speeding round the corner! They looked like the ill informed type from the clothes they were wearing. I advised in passing that this track was a mountain biking route so best not to walk on it. This happened a year or so ago but it's only a matter of time before someone does get hurt badly. Good luck,

2hottie

I have encountered walkers on Follow the dog at Cannock and the last section of the Black at llandegla (the section just after the bridge)

I only spoke to the ones at llandegla as I near wiped myself and thier dog out as I was coming over on of the jumps. - At the time was well p***ed off as it could have been a bad accident. They were not aware that it was an MTB trail.

As you mention above - they do have a right to way where ever they want to. The only thing that would say is that they are putting themselves and riders at risk of an accident.

Met and chap and his young son walking up the final descent on the Wall at Afan. Couple of years ago now. I let him know about the type of trail him was on, and that he'd likely meet bikers coming at him fairly rapidly, he seemed nonplussed.

Seen a few ramblers on the fireroad sections at CYB and BYC as well, but never met any on the trails there.

In Scotland the situation is not clear. there is provision in the access code to restrict purpose built tracks to particular groups of users but whether this includes mountainbikes trail is unclear.

I have met a couple on the whites climb at Afan but both times they saw me coming and stepped of the trail so i just said thanks and carried on as it seemed clear that tehy knew they were mtb trails and watching out for bikes.

I was riding the 'new' section of trail at Penmachno about six months ago and came across a family having a picnic on the trail. They had clearly been walking along the fireroad as they were about 50m from the junction of the singletrack and fireroad, and had obviously decided to step into the forest on the 'nice little path' and settle down for a bite to eat! 😯

Once i'd made them aware that the trail was a mountain bike route they moved a little further back into the trees but didn't seem that bothered to be honest. 🙄

In Scotland the situation is not clear. there is provision in the access code to restrict purpose built tracks to particular groups of users but whether this includes mountainbikes trail is unclear.

IIRC it mentions "land set aside for a specific recreational purpose"

It doesn't specify tennis courts, football pitches, bowling greens etc, but you wouldn't walk across them while they were in use...

I think it's only safe to assume nothing will be there if the trail is intensively marshalled to keep people/animals/fallen trees off. Even then you might encounter an injured rider.

When they race cars in Grizedale they have a temporary order making it a criminal offense to enter the forest uninvited...

Last year we encountered a group of walkers going the 'wrong way' on the Marin trail. They stepped off the trail and we trundled past as we were climbing at the time.

This is the other side of the cheeky trails coin, I guess.

Met and chap and his young son walking up the final descent on the Wall at Afan

Yup had quite a few encounter of this when have had trips to afan especially !

I don't think you want to start rocking the boat with the Scottish access situation - if they declare MTB trails as "land set aside for a specific recreational purpose" then they could start charging for access to it 😉

My local riding (Dalby) involves a lot of "marked" mtb routes, and a lot of other paths and tracks. A couple of bits of the marked routes are actually shared with mapped walks, so there's a reasonable amount of signage warning riders and walkers. I think I've only really encountered walkers on these sections, apart from some locals (ie forest residents) walking their dogs in the evening - but they know exactly where they are and what might be coming round the corner.

Generally the trail signage is pretty clear and seems to work in dissuading walkers, combined with well marked walking routes it seems to work reasonably well. I know that the FC has been defending against a claim from a walker who was in a collision with a bike on a fire road (a good while ago now I think), so presumably they've be particularly careful with the signage etc.

It's a tricky situation as as well as voluntarily declaring all the land it owns as access land (note not all the land it manages) most forests also essentially have permissive rights for cyclists (and horse riders) throughout the path and tracks. So keeping riders and walkers safe is important, but any push for some sort of complete separation could be counter productive in the long term.

Definitely a case for "gently discouraging" walkers away from dangerous spots, rather than blocking access (which would legally be extremely difficult anyway).

Difficult isn't it?

If we want access, then others have the same rights.

I'd sooner have open access and ride accordingly (ie expecting anything around the corner) than end up restricted to a few dedicated playgrounds.

I suppose it's down to whether you use your bike to get out in the country or as a toy for playing racers on (not a criticism of racing - it's fun).

CYB - Tarw, Dragons Back
Sherwood Pines - Kitchener, Adventure, Family
Kielder - Red

It's quite scary coming face-to-face with someone who you don't expect to be there and the thought of what could have happened if you had been seconds later/ not quick enough on the brakes.

About 2 years ago i talked to a couple of orienteers who were walking round Stainburn with the mountain bike tracks marked on their map. Having said that looking at their website the map isn't listed as available so maybe they realised the folly of running an event where user conflict could arise.

Discussed it with other trail builders at the time but don't know if it made it back to the FE. Not sure if they were aware it was a bike track but seeing as how they were standing next to the north shore at the time it would have been difficult to argue otherwise !

I think there's room for both avenues epicyclo.

The value of the trail centres, to me anyway, is generally having an opportunity to ride a formed trail (designed to provide the best "feel" for MTBing) like the clappers with the benefit of a) knowing that any air will have a transitioned landing zone and b) there wont be anything on the other side of the blind bend. This does of course assume that any fellow MTBer has moved to the side of the trail as soon as possible if they have a mechanical or off - not always a given 🙄

The corollory is that when I ride locally (malvern) I ride as a path sharer: I take every corner with the assumption that there will be a 60 year old wheezy woman with 2 yappy Jack Russells on leads 5 yards in opposite directions around her. Many a time I've been strangley accurate in my preparations 🙂

If I ride on a designated BIKE trail, I shouldn't expect to meet anyone other than cyclists.

If I ride on a shared use trail, I expect to meet walkers, dogs, horses, cyclists etc.

I'd sooner have open access and ride accordingly (ie expecting anything around the corner) than end up restricted to a few dedicated playgrounds.

Why can't we have both?

If you're riding anywhere at all, dedicated bike trail included, so fast that you may run into and injure someone on the trail then you just ain't riding with due care. As has been said, what if there is a mountain biker on the deck?

[i]As has been said, what if there is a mountain biker on the deck? [/i]
if he hasnt dragged his broken and bloodied body to the side of the trail, he's going to get some 2.1" ignitor tread marks on his back 🙂

I've come round a corner and had to skid to a halt because there was a person on an obviously borrowed bike riding at about 2mph (at Cannock). I've also come round a corner to find someone has crashed there an(at Coed y Brenin), and was crawling off the middle of the trail. You have to ride so you can safely stop even with just bikers there.

It is a hassle when dog walkers spoil your downhill or whatever, but realistically it only slows you down for a few seconds, not the end of the world - same thing as when you're riding a bike on the road, and someone has to wait behind you for 5 seconds until it's safe to pass.

I don't see that there's much anyone can do other than the forestry people signposting each entrance / exit with danger signs, and riders keeping an eye out when riding round corners.

Joe

If you're riding anywhere at all, dedicated bike trail included, so fast that you may run into and injure someone on the trail then you just ain't riding with due care. As has been said, what if there is a mountain biker on the deck?

I see your point, but a mountain biker on the deck will do all they can to get off the trail or fellow riders will warn others bikers of the hazard. A walker will not

Occasionally meet small family groups out for a walk in 50 Acre Wood, Bristol, which is FC managed. The wood is well out of the way though, and it's typically just 1-2 groups that use it, so I haven't bothered reporting them or anything. There is more of a potential problem over the road, on the other half of the trail, but that area of land is managed by the Council.

I do think a lot of the public have yet to get their heads round the idea of a purpose-built mountain bike trail. I have had comments along the lines of "I was walking here years before there were mountain bikes" which is all well and good, but it's not going to help you when you meet Stoner coming round the corner. 🙂

It's your responsibility to be able to stop safely within the distance that you can see on any form of transport, if you can't and for some reason you don't then you could be found negligent, no matter who or what it is that you crashed into.

Walkers on tracks at trail centres aren't a common problem IMHO, but it pays to take care. It could be [i]you[/i] knocked out after a crash the next time lying on the trail and unable to move.

I see your point, but a mountain biker on the deck will do all they can to get off the trail or fellow riders will warn others bikers of the hazard. A walker will not

What if they're knocked out, have broken their ankle, or have a spinal injury, and you're the first person that finds them?

If you're riding anywhere at all, dedicated bike trail included, so fast that you may run into and injure someone on the trail then you just ain't riding with due care. As has been said, what if there is a mountain biker on the deck?

If you were into motor racing you could come round a corner and discover a crash that you cannot avoid. That's part and parcel of that sport. In the same way, there's always a risk of another cyclist on the trail but that's an expected risk.

To many folk on here pander to the red sock brigade and don't stand up enough for our rights. There are plenty of places where cyclists aren't allowed to go.

Is it too much to ask for a trail where only we're allowed access, so we can ride without expectining to find a family picnic in the middle of every trail???

I hit a dog in the peaks about 12 years ago.... I treat them like you would a pigeon when your in your car... It's more dangerous to stop from high speed than speed up and make sure you clear it. Unless of course its as big as a small horse....

This was a little rat like thing off it's lead...I didn't kill it...cos I could see it backup the hill running around in the distance. But I didn't stop... self preservation, that's where it ends for me.

As for walkers on our trails... I've a bell...and use it on blind bends or if they have their back to me or head down coming the other
way..... a bit sad I know ... but it works!

You will always be in the lap of the gods to some degree B-(

Zone

I have come across walkers many times at cyb, marin and penmachno.
I very nearly rode into 2 pensioners sat on a deckchair on the last descent of the marin last year. When I stopped to tell them they were on a mountain bike route they told me to f@ck off.Then they generally became abusive and threatening. I lost the head, saw rage threatened to rip his head of etc.
Then realised hitting 70 year olds was not the best thing to do.
I called the excuse of a mountain bike ranger they had at the time (now replaced thank god)to report it and nothing more came of it.

BoardinBob - don't know if you've noticed, but motorsport takes place on a marshalled, closed track. What you're describing is similar to doing motor racing on a public road - in other words driving like a pr!ck.

The "red sock brigade" are people. People out enjoying the countryside. Just like you. It is perfectly feasible to ride quickly and enjoyably and still look far enough ahead to spot other folk. In very many years of mountain biking I have long since realised that when you encounter walkers you either need to stop and let them pass, or at the very minimum slow down to the same speed as them.

@mr agreeable - i came across someone jogging round the timberland trail during the bikefest this year, i had to carry on behind him for about 20m before he let me pass. i pointed out that there would be a lot more mtber's passing than normal (very politely) and he just told me to p*ss off.

Mr A - got into a rather heated discussion a few years ago in Ashton Court. Was riding the section from the gate house round by the wall... came round a corner at low speed to find a toddler, er, toddling along the path ahead of the rest of the happy family merrily out for a walk. Stopped without drama, no skidding needed, well in front of the kid..... who proceeded to burst into tears (probably scared, as to her I'd just appeared from nowehere). Father came lumbering up with a lump of wood threatening various levels of GBH and WOULD NOT accept he was walking on a way marked trail (...even though we were stood next to one of the markers), and could not see that just as I had half an eye on the possibility of people being on the trail and was ready to stop he/them should be aware of the potential for bikes to be there as well and the problems that might cause.

Don't know what this adds to the debate, but it made me ****in angry at the time 😉

I always seem to have at least one police officer with the group... and it has come in handy.

Zone

pjt201 and Bristolbiker, that's a bit unfortunate but most people you meet are pretty polite, there's just the odd bolshy ****t.

I do think the Timberland could do with better signage, but from talking to the estate management they are a bit loath to plaster the place with big red notices as it would be out of keeping with the feel of a country park. I can sort of see their point, there is a danger of turning the place into the equivalent of [url= http://www.channel4.com/programmes/father-ted/video/series-2/episode-4/no-picnic ]Father Ted's picnic area[/url].

It is actually a dual-use running and cycling trail too, although anyone taking a toddler down it should be referred to social services.

What if they're knocked out, have broken their ankle, or have a spinal injury, and you're the first person that finds them?

We - as riders - do have a responsibility on the trail. If a rider is out on their own and they have a crash that incapicitates them then yes there is a chance another rider will hit them. I'm not going to preach about riding in groups and I do feel this is off the OP, but there is acceptable risk and there is unacceptable risk. Walkers on a dedicated MTB trail is unacceptable.

GlenP, how does that work when you catch a group of walkers up then? 😛

To many folk on here pander to the red sock brigade and don't stand up enough for our rights. There are plenty of places where cyclists aren't allowed to go.

it's not pandering to extend them the same rights I expect myself - and in turn I go anywhere I please without reference to being 'allowed'. It's all of our country.

BoardinBob - don't know if you've noticed, but motorsport takes place on a marshalled, closed track. What you're describing is similar to doing motor racing on a public road - in other words driving like a pr!ck.

The "red sock brigade" are people. People out enjoying the countryside. Just like you. It is perfectly feasible to ride quickly and enjoyably and still look far enough ahead to spot other folk. In very many years of mountain biking I have long since realised that when you encounter walkers you either need to stop and let them pass, or at the very minimum slow down to the same speed as them.

I never mentioned anything about racing on the road. Where did you get that from?

I said above that on shared access trails I expect to meet non-cyclists and I'll ride accordingly.

On trail centre stuff, I don't, and shouldn't expect to meet anyone other than a cyclist on singltrack sections. As such I ride accordingly i.e. fast. I realise that there could be a cyclist crashed on the trail and that's a risk I accept. What I don't accept is expecting to launch off a drop off and find someone standing right where I'm about to land.

yeah, i was aware of the running nature of the trail, and don't normally have a problem, however if i wanted to go for a run on the weekend of the bikefest i'd probably go somewhere else...

We've met people walking at various trail centres over the years. Some encounters more memorable than other. Woman with loose dog and 3 puppies on rocky section at end of CyB just above the car park - chaos ... man walking up the final Wall descent - near miss, large group of walkers (kids, dogs etc) on the Marin, man eating lunch all spread out on bend of trail on the Marin - again, man with dog running down part of the descent on the Witches trail - didn't move or control dog - dog nearly ran over.

Depending on my mood/ speed of travel at that point on the trail ... I will typically stop and explain that this is a bike trail, and they are potentially putting themselves and other trail users at danger by walking/ running/ on them.

Most of the people I've spoken to didn't realise ... those neat little paths look so inviting don't they... but equally they also don't seem to care much about the potential pitfalls. While I agree with comments about riding safely and expecting the unexpected etc - trail centres are places where it should be fair to assume that the traffic you encounter is predominantly other bike users.

It's the danger aspect of walkers on designated trails that bothers me most and I'm reminded of reading about the crash at Golspie where a rider was seriously injured coming over a jump and landing on several women who were bimbling up oblivious.

You stop and say hello. And say something like "shall we come through and leave you in peace?"

If the trail is a built bike trail you might add a comment to the the effect that other bikers might be slightly surprised to find them there. In my own neighborhood I usually try and have a chat and suggest a nice (quieter) walk, but that's getting off the FC Trail question of the OP.

I've had issues on the Marin trail with walkers last year and reported it to the FC ranger. He was pretty disinterested to be honest and said nothing could be done. I asked if signs could be put to warn it's a bike trail (current signs here are blue with marin written on them no bike indication) but he said no.

The signage means you often find people on the trail right at the car park at the marin too.

if i wanted to go for a run on the weekend of the bikefest i'd probably go somewhere else...

Yeah and there were signs up in the preceding weeks saying that an MTB event was happening that weekend and the trails should be avoided! I think your chap was feeling very silly and got a bit defensive as a result. No harm done in the long run.

GlenP, I see what you are saying and part of me agrees completely. However you are putting your case in such a sanctimonious fashion that it makes me want to go out and run over some babies. 😉

It's the danger aspect of walkers on designated trails that bothers me most and I'm reminded of reading about the crash at Golspie where a rider was seriously injured coming over a jump and landing on several women who were bimbling up oblivious.

I'm sure someone killed a dog at Glentress a couple of years ago belonging to a family having a picnic on a descent.

I never mentioned anything about racing on the road. Where did you get that from?

A fenced-off, marshalled mountain bike race would be similar to a motor sport event, and would be an environment for riding as fast as you like. A waymarked mountain bike trail is not a race track.

even if there were a strict legal exclusion (which is unlikely) you could still encounter: fallen trees and rocks, animals, children & people who cannot read English or are too stupid to understand