[Closed] Race Phototraphers? Yeah. OK....

the merit of your work is indicated in some way by the money you earn?

financial merit, not photographic 🙂 Remember, Van Gogh never sold one painting ...

financial merit, not photographic Remember, Van Gogh never sold one painting ...

I bet everybody wants to be just like Van Gogh. [b]LOL[/b]

I bet everybody wants to be just like Van Gogh. LOL

so ambition is wrong ?

I bet everybody wants to be just like Van Gogh. LOL

so ambition is wrong ?

Yes. If your ambition is feeding your family while you are alive, Van Gogh's model is flawed.

If your ambition is feeding your family while you are alive

my youngest is 23 so I figure he can fend for himself :o)

Pragmatism is all very well, but are we to judge everything by money ? It seems a very crass metric 🙁

Pragmatism is all very well, but are we to judge everything by money ?It seems a very crass metric

The general vibe on this thread hs been about photogrphers making coin.

Don't be too offended.

Crucially, is Peter paid properly for being better than everyone else, or does he just do it for the love of his art? 😉

The general vibe on this thread hs been about photogrphers making coin.

wrong. Quite a few people who should know better have tried to use this to justify uninspired or even automatic photography - which PPs original post criticised. Frankly I couldn't care less if all professional photographers had to give it up and get proper jobs if they are typical of the responses given. Perhaps digital photography has been the undoing of workaday professionalism if it's democratised to something anyone can do, leaving just a few true visionaries 🙂

Crucially, is Peter paid properly for being better than everyone else

ha ha, but irrelevant. He doesn't have to be any good at it for his point to be valid.

A little blunt - but best to let you down now before you dig yourself even further into the mire.

I'll accept that it wouldn't be possible to get a picture of each of the 500 rides in the race jumping on their bike at the start without 500 photographers, but the finish shot shows what I mean by imaginative.
You look at it as a photographer and say if you can't see the number you can't sell the picture.
I look at it as a solo marathon rider and feel it shows the spirit of the event as I cross the line at the end of my last lap with less than 7 minutes to spare.

A tip: photograph riders from the front as you're not ID'ing anyone from these angles (no race numbers) - ergo you won't sell any images.

See what I mean about being imaginative ? I can't see my number, but I know I finished at 11:53 wearing a green & black jersey and shorts, so I'm sure I could pick myself out if you listed that batch of pictures by finish time.
You're the professional. If you say it won't work, then I'm sure it won't.
But if it does, I want 10% of the sales. 😉

Christ !,

Not sure I want to jump back in, but here goes nothing.....

I will get moaned at what ever I do, I can't please everyone but I try. Last year I read 'one' complaint about the remote flash and the rider had to go through it 4 times...This year I had someone on the trap to over ride it for the solos.

Last year I was asked why can't we take photos at the start/finish/changeover...This year we did, 'one' post is asking why take them in the car park area...

I was moaned at by a couple of riders for using a flash just after you came over the bridge. You had sunlight on your left, I was situated to your left, the flash was way over to your right - should have been no problem, but still someone will moan !

I have sold around 300 images/digitalfiles/web files so far for this event, I have had several emails back on how pleased they are.

The way I see it, apart from this forum, (which how many other photogs would even bother to reply let alone read), how would I know a few of you are not happy ? No one has contacted me to put forward any ideas or suggestions - As far as I am concerned the majority like them otherwise they wouldn't buy them - and keep buying them. Alot of the same customers buy them time and time again every year.

But !

I do take on board what you say - and to be fair I was not that impressed with some of them which ended up being the same as the trap photos. That camera had the chance to find a better area, but didn't.

Cheers
Adam

See what I mean about being imaginative ?

I'm sorry, but a badly exposed shot of a rider crossing a field towards a finish line isn't imaginitive, it's just a record. Still of value to you, obviously.

The second one shows the loneliness of crossing the line for the last time at dusk.

only if you know that beforehand. And loneliness is hard to capture in any circumstance. You should not confuse the imagination of the photographer with that of the viewer.

which how many other photogs would even bother to reply let alone read

At least 2.

Ok 2, but what I'm getting at is why not tell the photographer straight...

Was your meal to your liking sir.....Yes, it was lovely, Thanks!

I have sold around 300 images/digitalfiles/web files so far for this event, I have had several emails back on how pleased they are.

How many did PeterPoddy sell I wonder? ❓

Loads. He donated all the profits to charity. He kept that a secret though. Obviously if he'd told people it was for charity they'd have bought even more. 🙂

Most race pics I buy are as aide-memoires to the event - frankly so long as it's a half decent pic, I don't mind and I certainly don't really care about the artistic merit of it since I'm not a sensitive artistic type (well at least not obviously) who must have the perfect pic that perfectly captures the inner turmoil of the racer on the edge of his wit, etc 😉

I've got pics from photo-it for the past three or four years, a couple of which are below. I'm happy enough with them.

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

Oh, and rather suprised to see sfb on the side of ambition considering his oft and well publicised views on competition...

Presumably it's ok to have ambition in something that he approves of (taking good photos) but not in other things 🙄

Oh, and rather suprised to see sfb on the side of ambition considering his oft and well publicised views on competition.

simply, ambition is about achievement, not competition. I'm not against competition per se, but I think more people would benefit from sport if it were absent.

Not all trap photos have to be rubbish though:
[img] [/img]

[EDIT: I don't need to put words in Simon's mouth when he's here] 🙂

I think more people would benefit from sport if it were absent.

A fair comment but that does't in itself make competition a bad thing.

And achievement and competition are clearly linked unless you believe in absolutes. 50 years ago an athlete would have achieved massively if they could run under 10 seconds for the 100m (or let's say 10.3 to open it up a bit). Nowadays, that's a far lesser achievement. Achievement is relative for most people whether you agree with it or not.

pjt - why are you trackstanding on the top of a big hill? 😉

Loads. He donated all the profits to charity. He kept that a secret though. Obviously if he'd told people it was for charity they'd have bought even more

Once I have paid the other 3 helpers and repaired or replaced 2 dead flash units there isn't much left in the pot.

For this event I normally give away vouchers to Paul for the prizes for each category,

Two of the SPAM winter challenge events I donated a percentage of each sale to CLIC, this was advertised on their site.

Not sure what other guys do but I know that some actually charge for being there in the 1st place !

Not all trap photos have to be rubbish though

Nice location, could have at least hidden the reflector though.......

50 years ago an athlete would have achieved massively if they could run under 10 seconds for the 100m (or let's say 10.3 to open it up a bit)

yes, obviously, but beside the point for me. I'm interested in ordinary people and [b]their[/b] sporting achievements. I'm keen to promote mountain biking as a way to get people active in the face of increasing lethargy. It's ironic that athletic achievements steady improve while general fitness declines 🙁

Clubber, iirc i was following someone on a full sus up the climb and round the hairpin so was struggling to keep the wheels turning at the time. either that or posing for the photo.

The only way i know it was a trap photo was the reflector!

Photo-it and others, thanks for taking the time to reply, its been informative and I completely understand your points.

Like clubber, I regularly buy photos from events I've done, as an aide-memoire, but I won't buy them if I think them a boring/run-of-the-mill/plain bad photo. I'd rather have 1 good pic of me, than 4/5/6 boring pics.

The past few events I've done, especially big ones with professionals on the job, ALL the pics from professionals have been boring. So I've scooted around various Flickr sites and amateur collections, in every case those pics (where they got me - most obviously, havn't) they were either markedly better (if less technically perfect), or in some cases (likle Gary Lakes pics, or Sheldon from the HONC a while back) utterly brilliant.

Much of the time though, I'll have been out there 6/12/24 hours, had innumerbale snaps taken of me, none of which were worth buying/exchanging a pint for.

Now you guys can definatly take a damn good pic, so surely there is some way to get sufficient volume of pics to net enough sales, and increase the 'action' or 'artisitic merit' of a given snap???

I think, from the photographers point of view, it's hard to be dynamic and exciting when yet another stranger on a bike comes past. I'm a rider and I'd hate it 🙁

It's pretty funny - I was basically slagging off Ti29er too - but he's somehow managed to see it as a complement

Not at all - I've merely turned it on its head & used it to my advantage, although you failed to see it thus. 💡

Another post hit the nail on the head: photography has changed beyond all recognition, when film was employed there was a clear demarcation where those who had taken courses, be they degrees or other courses (my own is a post grad diploma), had studied it at made it our chosen professions, and went out and made a living from taking pictures.

Since the advent of digital, the profession has seen a raft of amateurs taking up what was once the domain of the professional, and I can't really think of another profession that has been so "invaded" (for want of any other term) by amateurs who have made inroads into what was previously the professional photographer’s domain. Mountain biking photography, and in particular, wedding photography would be two very clear examples.

It’s one reason why I personally can’t afford to give all my earnings away from any given event, and who’d expect us to since these events are clearly income streams – although I’ve photographed two events for free thus far in 2010 (RSPCA & UNICEF) and a % of the sales at another (Clic24 for the past 3 years).

By & large, these events don’t return that much income & I’ve had no complaints to date (aside njee’s silly snide remarks) & people continue to buy prints & magazines continue to print the work so it’s clearly a sustainable business model; you just have to choose your events wisely - and have other strings / clients to your bow / portfolio (see Jaguar image above). 😉

[img] [/img]

There was a comment that a lack of creative merit was being exhibited by race photographers.
As retort:
The above image was used extensively by one publisher in 2009 to promote a bike demo series, both on their web site and in one of their magazines. It was well received. It sold zero prints.

Is that the bottom of Jetlag at Glyncorrwg?

Yes, not far from the bottom.
Shot in Jan / Feb (?), it had rained all day, which turned to snow later in the day. Standing around getting pretty cold, waiting for riders to appear out of the gloom - the price one pays for a good picture, how I suffer for my art! 😉

Yes. If your ambition is feeding your family while you are alive, Van Gogh's model is flawed.

No it wasn't, he didn't have a family to feed did he?

Just seen these:
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/vitosport/sets/72157624230717878/ ]Link from home page[/url]
Far better than the others and managed to get the atmosphere of the weekend 🙂

[img] [/img]
A good case in point.
A remote flash unit behind the tree to light the rider's face would personally have been preferable (from a professional's view point), and again, all those images are being given away for free.

Yes, not far from the bottom.
Shot in Jan / Feb (?), it had rained all day, which turned to snow later in the day. Standing around getting pretty cold, waiting for riders to appear out of the gloom - the price one pays for a good picture, how I suffer for my art!

Argh, I was riding that day - did two laps on a Superlight and nearly died. Wet to the core from icey rain within 5 mins and then snow/sleet/rain on rotation.

I always come prepared but that was some weather that day!

And go on then, I'm feeling brave thanks to ADH's comments. Some more '09 bike fest. These were all in the last hour so might challenging conditions considering I don't have a full on 'strobist' setup.

[img] [/img]
[img] [/img]
[img] [/img]

I was standing in it all day until the MBR guys came off the hill at the very end.

On the strength of that day & the resultant images I shot events for them at Glentress, Dalby and the White's Enduro. I just happened to be there with some others to ride Afan (inc' njee) that w/end & as always, I had my camera kit with me, so I approached the organisers on that Sunday morning - and we went from there.

Aaah happy times, I remember me and MSP trudging around Penhydd in the wet that day. Horrible.

A remote flash unit behind the tree to light the rider's face would personally have been preferable (from a professional's view point)

...which always looks terrible to me as light does not naturally shine out of the ground and cast strange shadows on people 🙂

Crucially, is Peter paid properly for being better than everyone else, or does he just do it for the love of his art?

I've done it twice. First time was purely to learn how to use some new kit. I thought a 'captive audience' was great for this purpose.

It was suggested to me by Joolze that rather than give them away, I should sell them and donate to charity. I chose HFH as it was an Army event, on Army land. Gorrick races are a lot smaller than Bikefest and with 4-5 adverts on various forums I made £40 for HFH at £2 a time. You do the maths... 😉
So, not many no. But I didn't have shots of all the riders who emailed me.I never started out to sell them in the first place, and I was amazed by how many I sold and the feedback I got. I was chuffed to bits 🙂

Obviously if he'd told people it was for charity they'd have bought even more.

ha ha, but irrelevant. He doesn't have to be any good at it for his point to be valid.

Indeed. It's just a PoV though, nothing more. 🙂

I made that very, very clear.

For the avoidance of any doubt created by the mis-calibration of your irony filter, I was remarking that what people will pay for when the money is being donated to a popular charity and what they will pay for when the seller is keeping the proceeds are not necessarily exactly the same. The point being that your claim to commercial viability is not very well evidenced by the fact that you can solicit charitable donations in exchange for your pictures (commendable though that is). It's by-the-by though, and I think we're probably bored of this discussion. 🙂

How do you know where to buy said photographs from - i assume they give you a flyer/business card in the "doggy bag" at the ed of the race?

am i right?

🙂

I was remarking that what people will pay for when the money is being donated to a popular charity and what they will pay for when the seller is keeping the proceeds are not necessarily exactly the same.

The 2nd time I did it, I did it for myself.
With only leaflets on cars and no forum advertising I made a bit more. 🙂

I might try again at another event this year. I'll let you know how it goes. 🙂

I'll let you know how it goes

Of that, I am [url= ][i]absolutely[/i][/url] confident. Good luck. 🙂

Well, it'll be for HfH again if I do, so I'll be advertising on here. 🙂

EDIT
Your link is banned on my work PC. Is it worth looking at tonight? 🙂