At BBF on Saturday there were a few peeps taking pics of the racers, some obviously just of mates etc but a couple at least who looked like pros.
One in particular had more kit than anyone I've ever seen at a race, all mounted on a tripod, and seemingly taking pics automatically as riders passed. He sat there looking bored stiff. If you were there, you'd have seen him. You couldn't really miss him!
Now, I've no problem with whis really and I have no doubt his pics will be crisp and clear and technically perfect, but all shot in slowish locations on flattish bits of trail in the trees.... Yawn.
And ALL THE BLOODY SAME.
Now seriously, I'm no great shakes as a photographer, but I've been and shot at a couple of races, and there's dozens, maybe hundreds of places on the BBF course where I could have taken pics and put some effort in, tried to capture the essence of the event: The speed, the rockyness, the jumps (There were a few of them too) the dust, the sunshine, the effort.
Hide in a bush on the Quarry trail, near a jump, on a berm, that fast dusty corner near the start. Pan the camera. Blur the background, show the dust kicking up, the concentration on faces on that last tight rocky downhill, blue sky in the background near the golf course.
Walk round. Put some effort in. Think. BBF was a superb course: Use it!
Do you really want a pefect pic of you just riding you bike? Or would you like something that makes you look good, or knackered, or fast, or airbourne..?
I mean, this guy will certainly have a pic of me, but I have no inclination to even go and look at it, and certainly not buy it. And I do buy a few race pics. I like them as momentos. Look at my profile pic, it's a heavily cropped race pic I bought, the full size is superb and makes me look good (That took some effort!)
Sorry, I just don't see the point..... 🙁
(It's getting repetitive this, but:)
[b]Race photographers[/b]: Poddy takes [i]better[/i] race photographs than you do [i]without even trying[/i], and all you haters can suck his balls.
🙄 😛 😀
I agree entirely.
The difference between the photographers is massive, with some managing to capture the action and others just taking a snap.
At the Wiggle Enduro6 the 'official' photographer had positioned himself on a completely bland grassy climb, with parked cars in the background. There were so many interesting parts of the course, but this was clearly the easiest from a 'taking a pic' point of view with plenty of light and 'walking pace' riders.
BD - I could have guessed you'd be the first to reply. You're just predictable now. Yawn. 😉 😆
LOLs at BD.
PP, you are so right about this. I have sometimes felt rather let down by the pics taken in a very boring part of the course. What is the point?!
I have done many races and was only pleased once or twice with the results of the photos taken.
this is why people buy olivercoates photos 😉
Al, BD is almost my stalker. I'm quite flattered TBH 🙂
Well said PP
Cheers, Cheers! 🙂
Race photogs are generally there to get "a" photo of every competitor, not to get an arty photo of some competitors. They will be being paid by the number of people who visit the site and but a photo of them, which they'll tend to do based purely on wanting to remember they were there, not wanting to get a great arty shot of themselves from a hidden spot.
This thread is worthless without pics?
So, show us a pic that a race photographer took of yourself that you rate highly and one that just leaves you cold.
I will go and try to find some on a archived hard drive somewhere ( haven't raced for a while...)
I'm quite happy with the official BBF photos of moi, but the best by far in capturing the event for me was taken by Grahamh from this forum.
He got me at the end of my final lap, I was hurting a little..
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They will be being paid by the number of people who visit the site and but a photo of them
Well, in at least one case, it's not working. 🙁
Maybe compromise then..... first lap or so get the dull stuff then spend the next 10 hours getting more inspired shots.
The pics don't have to be arty at all, just actiony 🙂
They will sell more if they could do this instead of taking a boring looking one.
Well, in at least one case, it's not working.
Don't think they care, the number of amateur photogs snubbing their photos based on lack of technical competence is probably fairly minimal. If it was financially favourable I'd expect they'd all be out scooching around the course upside down and getting odd shots while able to offload more photos.
As an amateur clicker myself I'd agree they're boring, but from someone who's accompanied loads of people to sporting events, the last thing they care about is how arty the shot is, they just want a quick cheap shot to prove they were there.
You just make it too tempting Peter... 🙂
I'm absolutely no photographer, but presumably there's a commercial logic to it. If you shoot in a reasonably slow spot with good lighting it's easy to get a large number of perfectly adequate pictures. You'll certainly have a decent picture of everyone doing the event.
I guess that most people buy a couple of mediocre race pictures in their lives, then realise that they generally look the same in pretty much every picture and stop bothering unless someone is lucky enough to get a really fantastic picture of them.
If you've photographed everyone and they've all come out boring but OK, you'll likely sell a picture to everyone who's in the market for one.
If you move about, go for more interesting shots you'll presumably get a smaller number of better/more exciting pictures, but there's no guarantee you'll have taken pictures of the people who definitely want to buy a picture of themselves, and no guarantee that the good pictures will appeal to the people in them.
Ultimately, it's not (so far as I can see) an art-form, it's a high-volume, low-return exercise in getting a few quid out of people's enthusiasm and vanity.
I wonder if one could pay them a day-rate to follow you around taking pictures of you looking awesome? It'd probably be the same rate as for a wedding, or maybe a bit more unless you could offer them a go on your sister or something instead of a slim chance of a bridesmaid. 🙂
You should see the stuff they try and sell at horse riding events! The snappers have the advantage of being able to get close to the fences etc but they either have shadows over the rider faces, are too far back, take the photo late or early, I've even seen them where they've taken the shots from behind the fence so you just see the rider and horse heading away.
I and other friends usually manage to get a better result, even myself just using a compact. The difference being that we can only be in one place and get one chance at a shot whereas the snappers have two or three people, and don't have to be close enough to jog back to meet the rider at the finish.
Sorry, I just don't see the point.....
Then don't spend you're time doing it and let those who are prepared to spend their time (even if you think it's a waste) get on with it in peace.
Pardon my ignorance but where are the official photos for the BBF I can't seam to find them.
Iain
So, show us a pic that a race photographer took of yourself that you rate highly and one that just leaves you cold.
Oddly, I only buy the good ones! 😉
This is the full size on of my profile pic I mentioned. TransWales 2008 -
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It was pouring with rain, and he was halfway down a slippy muddy gully, and he gets a pic of that quality. Well done sir, that's what I'm talking about. 🙂
Too right, it's the same at running events as well, crap photos that convey nothing other than, 'I was there'. Expensive too. I suspect in a few years this bubble will burst as wives start telling their husbands to get proper jobs that earn some money and all the crap photographers that seem to have sprung up recently will be gone.
Ha ha, that is a good photo, but it's all a bit MBUK! Or do the trees grow funny round those parts?
Surely it depends what you want to get out of it? If you want to 'capture the event' then you're absolutely right PP, but if you want to sell photos to the riders then they probably don't care that there's hundreds of others virtually the same! Agree that some photos can be in very dull locations though. I wonder if you're more likely to sell more of 50 photos you get 'just right' with the ambience, or of 500 photos you just 'point and shoot'.
I remember doing BBF in 2007 and there were more photos of riders than at any other event, it obviously attracts them!
I agree with PP, there's a severe lack of imagination going on in a lot of race photo's. But that said it is a pretty tough job as we're probably all going a lot slower than we like to think we are and so it's difficult to make us all look like Tomac...
But you're right, a bit of creativity about the backdrop, and mixing that up with some decent close-up gurning shots shouldn't be rocket science. All the good kit in the world can't make up for dull composition.
I understand the 'why' regarding people taking 'safe' images to get everyone in, and get more chance of making money based on volume sold - and there were quite a few buying at the Enduro6.
But some people seem to manage that and take interesting shots as well.
I have found that Joolze Dymond always manages to get some great pics and evokes the atmosphere of an event. She doesn't mind parking herself in amongst some uncomfortable looking shrubbery if it means she gets some great shots.
For what it's worth, I like Peter's MBUK-action shape-throwing extravanganza of panning, but the BBF shot of Mike's a good one too. Nothing flashy, it's just a picture of a man suffering on a bicycle towards the close of a rather fine day. 🙂
I still think Joolze Dymond consistently gets the best. I've seen so many photos of me that I usually ignore them, but some of hers still make me think 'woah, that's good'.
I think her highlight was 24/12 last year, with [url= http://www.joolzedymond.com/photocart/index.php?do=photocart&viewImage=48213&q=905 ]this[/url] shot. I've got an A4 print of it, you can read the lettering on my tyres, water bottle, crazy!
forgot - yes joolz always gets good shots too ... just not up here in scotland 😉
PP got to say that photo really wouldn't get my cash at all, looks like one taken with a compact that friend might take as he tripped backwards - bearly any of it is in focus due to the motion, the extreme angle adds nothing and conveys a sense of "it wasn't very steep so I tilted the camera to make it look better". Each to his own.
KINKTUT - too much sag dialed in there?
i'm going to eat my words - just checked the official photo's of me and team mate and they're chuffing wicked! well done that lensperson!
It is a common belief that to achieve success in life, you have to do your best at everything you try to accomplish. It is also argued that, if you want to become a specialist in your line of work, you should give yourself in, and be the best.
In the first place, while trying to get to the top and doing things well, we have to learn new things, cope with problems and find resolutions, and therefore, we develop into better people. Trying to achieve our goals we develop, keep our minds open and constantly full of ideas. We keep the world we live in turning, evolving and changing into a better one.
the photographers they had a 24h de finale in finale ligure, italy, this year were the best i've ever encountered. no put any of the pics i bought online yet but you can see the samples [url= http://www.sportograf.de/en/shop/search/763 ]here[/url] (you might need to stick 410d in the search box though to see mine). the pricing was about right too, €20 for about 50 very high res, very good quality digital images with no watermark etc.
The pics don't have to be arty at all, just actiony
Indeed. It's not hard. A basic technique like [url= http://www.photoanswers.co.uk/Advice/Search-Results/Photopedia/Slow-sync-flash-/ ]SLOW SPEED SYNC[/url], pan the camera, rider looks fast, job done.
If you shoot in a reasonably slow spot with good lighting it's easy to get a large number of perfectly adequate pictures. You'll certainly have a decent picture of everyone doing the event.
"Adequate", "Decent"
Why settle for that? 🙂
I was actually talking to a pro MTB snapper earliet this year who said they'd seen someone at another event taking pics like this and that they thought it wasn't showing out sport is as good a light as it could be.
It can be done. You've just got to want to do it. 🙂
KINKTUT - too much sag dialed in there?
Nope 100mm Sids @ 25%, I am however putting weight on the front as I as going prone to beat the head wind.
Why settle for that?
It can be done. You've just got to want to do it.
I think perhaps you do just need to get on with doing it yourself. As you've made clear, your pictures would be very good. I'll look out for you lurking in the bushes near the tricky bits of Hit the North with an expression of concentrated artistic rapture on your face. 😉
Nope 100mm Sids @ 25%, I am however putting weight on the front as I as going prone to beat the head wind.
IC, just looks like a normal riding position to me rather than over the front.
I still think Joolze Dymond consistently gets the best. I've seen so many photos of me that I usually ignore them, but some of hers still make me think 'woah, that's good'.
That's because she puts the effort in. I've got one of hers of me from Mayhem (Sorry, don't have it available to post) It's a long-shot, taken early morning on the grassy climb, side on. My head's bowed, I'm obviously suffering a bit and you can only see the top 2/3 of me for the grass, and I'm all alone. It's a great shot.
IC, just looks like a normal riding position to me rather than over the front.
Same race (pro photo to prove Peter's point), normal riding position lots more stanchion showing.
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Looking svelte and powerful there Mike, if I may say so. 🙂
You may say so, I thank you. 🙂
I think perhaps you do just need to get on with doing it yourself. As you've made clear, your pictures would be very good
I never, ever said 'good'. You said that. 🙂
I can't compete against a £4k 1D with L-glass with my 400D and battered Sigma for quality, not even close.
But really, you should have seen him, this guy looked bored to tears. I loved it when I did it, leaping around the bushes, lying on the floor, trying to do the best I could. The day flew by! 😀
coffeeking - his SIDs are setup perfectly, rather than rock hard like most clueless numpty XC racers.
Peter - I agree with your sentiment entirely. I don't think I've ever found a 'race' pic from an event photographer that I like. All the same, all boring, all make the bikes/riders look static and dull. The only pics of me I've ever found that I like are taken by 'amateur' photographers:
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Honourable mentions go to Sheldon and Gary Lake. Joolze has taken a couple of OK shots of me too, I have to say.
I was sorry to miss you on Saturday Peter, I saw you in the distance but never managed to find you for a chat.
KT, that was the guy near the start/finsh straight wasn't it? He was using a monopod? Not the guy I mean to be fair, do you rember the chap that was set up by the big log as you come out of the woods for the last time? Not even holding his camera, just sitting next to it? Him.
these two tell a story - before and after I trashed my shoulder:
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pics courtesy off official bbf at photo-it.com (i'm buying these photo's as respecting i'm showing someone else's artistic property!)
Peter - am off to fracture clinic this arvo to see how bad it is and whether me coming to the PDS is on or not. I have fingers -and everything else that doesn't hurt too much- crossed...
I used to cover snowboarding and skiing events for the British Universities Snowsports Club (some of the pics still come up if you google my name in google images!).
You do find yourself just making sure that you definitely have at least one photo of everybody - if that means sitting in one place for an hour or so, then so be it.
I like to think though that most of the pics were at least interesting and I put a lot of thought and effort into (my) location, off camera lighting and technical considerations.
Occasionally, I've thought about getting into the mtb race market - I already take pics for a living and the subject matter is plenty interesting... Sounds like it may already be a saturated market though?
do you rember the chap that was set up by the big log as you come out of the woods for the last time?
Vaguely, but I tend not to look at the photographers - it spoils the action shot if you are looking into the camera. 😉
The day flew by!
Sadly, this is probably the crux of it isn't it? Did you make any money?
If he's bored to the point of near-death AND taking bad pictures AND losing money hand over fist by sitting there then that's tragic. If he's bored, taking bad pictures BUT making enough money for it to be worth his while then fair play I suppose, it's just a job. 🙂
it spoils the action shot if you are looking into the camera.
Like this? Good old Nath eh? 100% focus that man ...
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I'm soooooooooooooooooo tempted to post one of my own and open myself right up to ridicule..... 😉
From looking through my photos tagged on Facebook:
An amateur photographer friend of mine took this, which I always liked, particularly as you can't see it's me!:
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This was one of the official ones from BBF a few years ago, I think it's a pretty good effort!
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Joolze has got loads of good ones of me, just not got any of them saved anywhere!
Sadly, this is probably the crux of it isn't it? Did you make any money?
Yup. 🙂
Another excellent amateur photo (of me, oh yes) taken at the Clic24 2009.
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Credit to Laura Pilon.
PJT - agreed - they were amazing.
[url= http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4056/4668892550_7dd133d16f_b.jp g" target="_blank">
[url= http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4032/4668891638_2eac3a848b_b.jp g" target="_blank">
Also had some very good pics from Joolze in the past, like this of Steve at D2D which she said was one of her favourites of the year.
[url= http://new.britishcycling.org.uk/zuvvi/media/articles/mtb/20091223-joolze-dymond-review-10.SomethingBlue.jp g" target="_blank">http://new.britishcycling.org.uk/zuvvi/media/articles/mtb/20091223-joolze-dymond-review-10.SomethingBlue.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
It was pouring with rain, and he was halfway down a slippy muddy gully, and he gets a pic of that quality.
with respect PP, I fail that shot for obvious tilting. If it had been that steep and slippery too, your face would have shown more concern. Also you can see tilted tree trunks in the background...
Bah. Some of them take it too seriously IME. Kicked a guy out from inside the tape at iXS Cup at the weekend, he had the nerve to complain that the course hadn't been set up with photographers in mind.
We had gone for the traditional putting on a good course for the riders, safety of the riders etc, good jump into the field for the spectators, never thought to cut down a few more trees to give this guy better light !
Later in the day another photographer got inside the tape, rider took an unpredictable line and landed on top of him. Neither hurt too badly but it meant a re-run so we had to keep all the marshals in places and get the guy up the hill again. (had planned for this and had a pick-up truck waiting but still)
I'll be a much bigger Press Pass Nazi next year... this guy's behavior was just dangerous.
with respect PP, I fail that shot for obvious tilting
And I like it because of that! 🙂 Believe me, that was sketchy down there, that's concentration, but I knew I could ride it....
To ba fair, it'd be boring if we all liked the same thing.
I always have a look at the pics you post from the Lakes, because you've got a great canvas to work with there and there's always one or two that show the ride as it was, usually the isolation in the landscape that comes across IMO.
EDIT
I've just had a closer look at it, and I reckon I look slightly worried, and I'm off the back of the saddle, FFS! 😉 😀
And bear in mind that was day 1 or 2 of a 7 day epic....
In my mind there are 3 ways of doing things. Especially tasks you dont really want to be doing.
1. Do nt do it !
Advantages - Maximum time available to do something else you want to.
Disadvantages - Job is not done at all.
2. Do it properly !
Advantages - Job is done to the best of your abilities 100% complete.
Disadvantages - Minimum time available to do something else you like.
3. Maximum Efficiency - Do the 90% of the job that takes 10% of the time. Ignoring the 10% of the job that takes 90% of the time.
Example - Putting clothes away
Throw all the clothes in the wardrobe with out sorting/folding/hanging them. Room is clean, wardrobe/cupboard doors are closed so I dont walk into them during the night when I want a pee.
Advantages - Almost the maximum time to do something else, most of the job is done if badly.
Disadvantages - Clothes are crumpled but who cares.
But my wife has found a third way similar to the above example
4. Minimise Efficiency - Do the bit of the job that takes 90% of the time, leaving the remaining bit that takes 10% of the time to finish the job properly.
Example - Putting clothes away
Neatly fold all the clothes putting them in drawers/cupboard but be careful to leave one item hanging out of drawers/doors, and then do not close them properly
Advantages - Clothes are put away.
Disadvantages - Room still looks a mess, drawers etc are left open so I bang my knee in the middle of the night leading to massive amounts of shouting. Minimum time to do something else you want to.
This example sounds similar the guy gets buys the cameras, gets to the location, braves the weather, sets up the website etc etc all the boring stuff that takes ages then doesnt bother with the exciting finishing bit of taking good pictures a little bit more effort would make it so mych more worthwhile.
To me it sounds like he's expended 90% of the effort but still only got pictures that are 10% as good as someone who expended 100% of the effort.
Did you make any money?/ Yup.
I meant, net of depreciation on the camera equipment, travel and other expenses and opportunity cost of the time spent, if it makes any difference to your answer. 🙂
EDIT: I quite agree, some of the pictures people have posted are clearly a lot better than the bulk of the stuff that gets taken. But it's still presumably the case that these chaps don't think they're wasting their time. Hey ho.
I meant, net of depreciation on the camera equipment, travel and other expenses and opportunity cost of the time spent, if it makes any difference to your answer
So why not say that in the first place rather than trying to wiggle out of it when you're surprised by my answer? 😛
The full story is that no, I didn't make a penny. It all went to Help for Heros. Good enough for ya?
However, if I'd have sold that many pics at Joolzes prices, I'd have made about double what I do for a day here at work.
Bearing in mind my only advertisement was on about 4-5 cycling foums, and personally I don't think that's too shabby for a first attempt. 😀
One in particular had [b]more kit than anyone I've ever seen at a race, all mounted on a tripod, and seemingly taking pics automatically as riders passed.[/b] He sat there looking bored stiff. If you were there, you'd have seen him. [b]You couldn't really miss him![/b]
Tripod? automatic snapping kit? Couldn't miss him?
Was he wearing high vis, with one of these deployed....
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LOL! Might as well have been! 😀
I think I probably got away without being ticketed.
Less of this:
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More of this:
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@kingtut and another dead hero (which Lvisite are you!?)- Im always focused on the task in hand - mostly eating! I was too chicken to take my hands off the bars and give him a two finger salute!
I gave one photographer a contador gunshow (shame it wasnt the ron burgundy version) but I havent seen it yet- any ideas of other galleries about?
Nath
These were with a £150 compact digital, no flash and no real photography skill:
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With a decent camera I could have brought a chair and sat there all day snapping souvenir pics that imo are better than the official shots. Why are they all in portrait? And half of them are so brightly lit by the flash they look like pap shots outside a nightclub.
Joolze does some beautiful stuff, I need to start doing some races where she's working!
I don't think that's too shabby for a first attempt
OK, I surrender. You are indeed the model that other so-called race photographers should seek to emulate. 😛 😀
(mr MC posting)
I try to take arty/atmospheric pics when I'm out riding and I'm impressed with the official photos of me off the photo-it site, the first one is inside knee up and out, brakes on, looking deep into the oncoming corner with race face on, and theres a couple of mid tight-corner decent lean angle/body position shots too. the only race pic I ever bought at a red bull 24hr was a similar big lean "powering" out of a corner race face shot.
Agree the straight fireroad stuff is lazy and pointless (unless youre riding with a broken shoulder I guess!)
GodIhatehills, ADH is Andy L.
Cheers for the mention ADH - the image in question:
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I think it's technically quite a weak shot - I've only got a 450D, a 10-22mm and a mid-level flash gun + diffuser. I think the flash is a bit 'hot', it's a bit contrasty and I always get the forward motion blur despite using second curtain flash syncing. But at the same time, like what PP is saying, it does a much better job of capturing the moment.
However, clearly the guy in question is coming at this from a purely commercial aspect. He's obviously worked out he needs to get every rider, and at least 4 photos of each, he'll know from experience how many photos will sell and it's probably a nice little winner for him.
I on the other hand while happy to lay down in the bushes, an inch from your wheel, wielding a 10mm lens, and generally risking a dam good clattering from the next rider who crashes, will probably only hang around for a couple of hours, only capture a fraction of the riders, shoot in fewer locations and probably throw away more than half the shots I take.
So I think it's unfair to batter the guys who do this...
There was a water crossing at one of the events, steep bank down into a stream, short bank on the far side. One cameraman set himself up there and got pictures of all the people falling in. I bet he didn't sell many though because too many people take themselves too seriously. Much better place to stand than where PP is complaining about.
I always try to smile for the camera when I see someone taking my picture.
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Oh the other issue to consider is cataloguing the photos. You can probably see the number plate in less than half of my more creative efforts...
GaryLake thats the best photo I have seen from the weekend by a long long way.
The Photo-it guy (who was the guy by the log at teh exit of the woods) managed to get 4 photos of everyone in out team so that 12 photos all ranging from bad to average. I think my 6 year old son could have done a better job with the kit he had.
Most of these 'Pro' photographers need to re-think the way they take photos I would have been much happier with one good photo of one of the riders in our team than 12 cr@p ones.
soma_rich: that was actually from '09 BikeFest but thanks! 😀
I was out shooting for Team Syncros friday nght and bagged a couple from the race on Sat but I can't share those as they're potentially being used commercially...
Ahh the mud should have given it away 🙂
I always try to smile for the camera when I see someone taking my picture.
+1
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I grin like a fox on crack.
Gary - my GF is quite into her photography too (just not of bikes!) so I'm well versed in the technicalities of photography, but I still vastly prefer shots like that, compared to innumerable borings, but technically 'better' photos.
I'd rather take a chance on one good shot like yours than any amount of the usual boring dross these guys turn out. OK if it earns them a crust, but I've never ever bought one, and I probably never will.
I've just had a look through the official pics of me from the link on P1 of this thread. There's about 10 of me. They are all nice enough, well composed, and sharply focuzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.......................
Eh? Wha? Ohh sorry. I dropped off for a second there.... 😐