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You (on your own) find a mountain biker lying off the trail on his back at the bottom of a big drop, the bike lying quite far away (indicating a fairly high speed crash).
It's a windy day, help is at least 30 minutes away, and he's wearing a lot of armour and layers, and a full face helmet. You are worried he may have a neck/spinal/head injury, but can't tell if he's breathing or not because of the helmet. He is completely unresponsive.
Do you take the helmet off, and if so, how?
No.
You will be able to tell if he's breathing, (helmet or not - Feel, listen, get close), and if he's not, it will become apparent very quickly.
If he's not breathing, No1 priority is to preserve life, so the helmet comes off fast and you get on with it.....
But you gotta get help FAST in either case. CPR is useless without proper medical intervention
Look, Listen, Feel.
Do not take the helmet off.
You work out if he is breathing by getting in very close and listening, feeling for the breath.
If he's not breathing remove the helmet and attempt mouth to mouth ?
Just gaffer tape his mouth and nose, if he splutters, he is (was) still breathing.
Look, Listen, Feel.Do not take the helmet off.
What if you think he isn't breathing?
If he's not breathing remove the helmet and attempt mouth to mouth ?
Why would you need to remove the helmet for mouth to mouth?
What if you think he isn't breathing?
If I knew, not think, he wasn't breathing see above.
yes. If he's breathing he'll be more likely to survive, so you need to know.
Obviously don't just rip his lid off wildly, but if he chokes on his own tongue he's dead, whether he has a broken neck or not, and you can solve that if you know it's happened.
If there are two people around you can safely remove a helmet and keep the neck supported. ICBA to google it, but it can be done.
What if you think he isn't breathing?
As I said, No1 priority is to preserve life. If you can't do that with the helmet on, you take it off. If you don't he'll die anyway
Obviously there's other things you can check before moving him like a blocked airway, which might fix it.
Why would you need to remove the helmet for mouth to mouth?
He said full face Drac. I'd try without taking it off first. Maybe you could do it, maybe not.
For everyone who said "Look, listen, feel", you clearly are not very good at absorbing information.
It's a windy day
he's wearing a lot of armour and layers
In this situation, the only way you will be able to tell if he is breathing or not is by removing the helmet. Or waiting for the autopsy/for him to get up.
For the people that said do remove the helmet
Do you take the helmet off, [b]and if so, how?[/b]
yes. If he's breathing he'll be more likely to survive, so you need to know.
You can do that without taking the helmet off, even a full face.
If I knew, not think,
That's the key. Once you KNOW, and you will know, then you can act accordingly
In this situation, the only way you will be able to tell if he is breathing or not is by removing the helmet. Or waiting for the autopsy/for him to get up.
Really, guess I've been lucky then over the years. As I've always managed to tell if people or breathing in some really bad conditions.
In this situation, the only way you will be able to tell if he is breathing or not is by removing the helmet. Or waiting for the autopsy/for him to get up.
Aye missed that bit, well that's when it's more tricky. It can be done but breathing comes, first then C spine so if your 100% sure they need resuscitation and done all the other checks then yes.
For everyone who said "Look, listen, feel", you clearly are not very good at absorbing information.It's a windy day
he's wearing a lot of armour and layers
Yes I am, I read it carefully. You'll be able to feel it, wind or not. Layres don't stop the chest rising. You can put your hand near his mouth/nose. You can shield him with your body and hands and put your ear within an inch or two of his mouth, and one hand under the chinbar will stop the breeze.
You'll be able to feel it
Sorry, I thought for a moment that this was my hypothetical situation. Please, take over.
the bike lying quite far away (indicating a fairly high speed crash).
See, that doesn't necessarily indicate a crash. He might have walked back up the trail to pick something up and had a heart attack!
From your info it's not 100% certain he's crashed.
I can't believe that nobody has gone to check the bike is OK yet 🙄
I can't believe that nobody has gone to check the bike is OK yet
Your mate loads that into you car whilst they seek help.
Sorry, I thought for a moment that this was my hypothetical situation. Please, take over.
Tell me what difference taking the lid off makes then? It's still the same process to check breathing. If anything I think a lid would HELP you work it on a windy day, by shielding his face for you!
Is the bike ok?
//edit - Must learn to read more carefully 🙂
[url= http://www.ambulancetechnicianstudy.co.uk/helmet.html ]helmet off[/url]
Is the bike ok?
That info is not available in the OP. You only know he's quite far away from it. By the sounds of it, you get to the casualty before passing the bike.
arguably the first thing to do is dial 999
bassspine, what if you're alone?
bassspine, that link looks like it's aimed at the pros who have been trained how to do it. I wouldn't touch it unless I had to.
I have actually atteneded a motorcycle accident too, and fairly recently. But it was obvious from the swearing that he was breathing OK. His leg however, was not so good. I kept him on the floor where he was.
bassspine, that link looks like it's aimed at the pros who have been trained how to do it. I wouldn't touch it unless I had to.
It's not our guidelines they come from JRCALC. The technique is the same as though.
Squeeze his nose gently, and see if he responds to pain, if he is breathing and alive he should move.
Also why would you wantt to take his helmet off, everyone knows after a crash you should send the helmet back to the manufacturer for a replacement.Also it may not be your size.
bassspine, what if you're alone?
Then you need to know if he's breathing, and you need to get help FAST. VERY FAST. He'll die if he's not breathing.
If he deffo wasn't breathing I'd start the CPR (becasue I'd not know how long he'd been down) to get some oxygen in, then get help within a minute or so (Assuming I have phone signal) But if he's not breathing you won't 'cure' him on your own
Squeeze his nose gently
He is completely unresponsive
It's not our guidelines they come from JRCALC. The technique is the same as though.
Fair enough. I've not b een shown how to doi it, so I'd make the judgement on the breathing first.
Yes I am, I read it carefully. You'll be able to feel it, wind or not. Layres don't stop the chest rising. You can put your hand near his mouth/nose. You can shield him with your body and hands and put your ear within an inch or two of his mouth, and one hand under the chinbar will stop the breeze.
^This. Just because it's 'your hypothetical situation' doesn't mean that you can ignore what can realistically and practically take place. Well, you can, but then there's not much point in having the discussion in this thread.
Oh, and this as well:
the bike lying quite far away (indicating a fairly high speed crash).See, that doesn't necessarily indicate a crash. He might have walked back up the trail to pick something up and had a heart attack!
From your info it's not 100% certain he's crashed.
Don't make assumptions as to what has or hasn't happened, unless the evidence is there to indicate for certain.
Fair enough. I've not b een shown how to doi it, so I'd make the judgement on the breathing first.
Wise.
Anyway my treatment would be a whole lot different to lots on here and given the utter vagueness and Realmans unrealistic there is answer as such.
Don't make assumptions as to what has or hasn't happened, unless the evidence is there to indicate for certain.
Oh oh but he's being hypothetical. 😆
Don't make assumptions as to what has or hasn't happened, unless the evidence is there to indicate for certain.
Fair enough, in my mind I was seeing the bike mangled and not in a position someone would place it in, and obvious signs of a crash, eg: blood, muddy clothes, etc. I just didn't write it that's all.
I don't think in every single situation you will be able to be sure if they're breathing or not. Hence the question.
If he is not breathing and you don't know how long he has been there is he not infact dead#? Thus no need to take the helmet off as attempting CPR is pointless? (I suppose you can check for further signs - fixed dilated pupils and a nice blue colour|) I am always very dubious about doing CPR when you don't know how long the person has been down for. Are you just molesting a corpse?
RealMan - Member
You (on your own) find a mountain biker lying off the trail on his back at the bottom of a big drop, the bike lying quite far away (indicating a fairly high speed crash).It's a windy day, help is at least 30 minutes away, and he's wearing a lot of armour and layers, and a full face helmet. You are worried he may have a neck/spinal/head injury, but can't tell if he's breathing or not because of the helmet. He is completely unresponsive.
Do you take the helmet off, and if so, how?
Posted 35 minutes ago # Report-Post
You go on a bike forum asking for advice, then you take pics of his bike and clothing and post them on EBAY,
Airway, Breathing, Circulation. Its actually quite easy (hypothetically or not) to tell if someone is breathing, but don't bother with a pulse unless you know where to look as a lot of "no pulse" calls are actually "couldn't find a pulse" which is not always the same thing!
Helmet removal is relatively easy, but requires 2 people, mouth to mouth through an full face helmet is easy, hold mouth shut and blow through the nose? (probably a bit nicer than lip on lip action too!)
In this theoretical situation I would:
stabilise the patient with my bag/coat to ensure head/body are not moving freely,
speak to the patient, call out, try a gentle pinch to his ear etc. If no answer --->
open patients mouth and make sure its not full of blood/drool/dirt etc, if it is blocked then clear it as far as you can see with your fingers.
Place hand on chest and feel if it is moving, hold my hand over the riders mouth/nose and feel for air movement. If no obvious breathing try blowing into the patient a couple of times, If they are breathing they will cough and then swear at you, if not then well done, you just got 2 breaths in!
Forget pulse, if they're not breathing they either don't have a pulse or wont have soon, give them some CPR. It might be best to remove the armour (depends on type) but this might compromise a neck injury. Basically, if they need CPR, forget stabilising the neck and get the air in and out and blood round and round (mind you, don't kick em in the head, try and be careful, keeping the chin inline with the midline of the body etc.)
Presumably you've already called 999/112 so keep going as long as you can.
If you absolutely must remove a helmet, bare in mind that the nerves that control breathing etc pass through the spinal column at the neck, so if there is any damage and bone kinks that cord.... try to keep the head absolutely still and in the position it landed.
I am always very dubious about doing CPR when you don't know how long the person has been down for. Are you just molesting a corpse?
So you'd rather let someone die then risk "molesting a corpse"? That's an odd stance.
meehaja, thanks, that could just the first proper reply on here.
if it is blocked then clear it as far as you can see with your fingers.
Apparently you're not meant to do that anymore, as quite a few people have trigged the gag reflex and lost a finger or two (and then of course they've got a few fingers in their airway as well).
Never practised mouth to nose, is it fairly simple?
So you'd rather let someone die then risk "molesting a corpse"? That's an odd stance.
Exactly. You don't know. So you start the CPR. It might be a waste of time, but you'll only know that if you try.
Can we throw the contents of our water bottle over him to see if he responds, water always seems to work in the movies 😉
Realman - the point is they are already dead and are not going to be brought back by cpr. You don't know how long they have been down. How long does someone survive without O2? What are the success rates of CPR in that situation?
I would be looking for the other signs tho - the fixed dilated pupils