Sorry, I know this subject is as old as the hills but I'm thinking myself round in circles at the moment!
Have had persistent medial knee pain on my right leg which hasn't been resolved by bike fit or physio (yet). In fairness, I've struggled with some of the advice given by the bike fit guy as it's all based around releasing tight muscles with a massage ball, and I can never tell if I'm doing it right (it hurts, but I imagine any muscle would hurt if you're placing your body weight on top of a lacrosse ball!). I do lots of stretching of the relevant muscles though.
My physio has had me working on glute muscles to improve hip rotation, and I already know from experiments on the road that sticking the sore knee out further from the top tube usually delays the onset of the knee pain. Problem is, my foot then gets sore! Especially around the outside of the foot. It just feels like there isn't enough space for my foot to adopt its preferred toe-out position whilst also stick the knee out.
I'm thinking moving the right foot out further from the pedal, partly to give me more heel clearance to allow the toe out position. I also noticed that my singlespeed (currently the bike with the most miles on it) has an MTB BB e.g. 172mm q-factor, and the road bikes have a road bike Q-factor e.g. 146mm. I think my increasing knee pain has co-incided with more time on the road bikes, in particular turbo training for CX etc.
I can increase the Q-factor of the road bikes with some pedal extenders, 1 extender on the right doesn't quite bring me up to the 172mm width, but two extenders overshoots by about 13mm.
I'm tempted to try the one extender approach for now, will make the bike asymmetrical but I'm getting the impression that I'M asymmetrical, so maybe that doesn't matter...
If it works I was thinking Speedplays with superlong axles, which will make the road bikes pretty much identical Q-factor to the singlespeed/MTB.
I don't know what my question is to be honest, I guess: has anyone else used pedal extenders in this way? and has anyone else resolved foot/knee pain by increasing Q-Factor?
p.s. cross posted from Road.cc, it's more roady specific over there but a lot quieter than on here!
p.p.s I know it's actually stance width I'm interested in, but all my pedals are identical ~53mm and Q-Factor is the more recognised term.
A couple of thoughts
Have you been assessed for wedges that change the angle of your foot on the pedals. Or the use of footbeds in the shoe that do the same, for example Specialized body geometry do them
https://www.specializedconceptstore.co.uk/product/7457/2017-body-geometry-sl-footbeds/
https://www.sigmasports.com/item/Specialized/Body-Geometry-Internal-Wedges-Two-Pack-Varus/DF6F
https://www.bikefit.com/c-1-cleat-wedges.aspx
Never used any of this stuff but the foot edge thing made me think of them
Having had various issues I now only use flat pedals for everything. I do think doing the even temporarily might let you see where your feet end up.
Thanks, good suggestions!
Am footbedded and wedged to the max, have the highest arches possible in a cycling insole, and 2 wedges worth of cant.
You're right though, the motivation for that was the outside of the foot pain, which makes me wonder if that was ever a varus/valgus thing or if it was always a stance width/foot rotation thing.
It would be interesting experimenting but the only way of doing that is constantly swapping Speedplay axles it seems, gets spendy!
Think I'll try the 20mm extender on one side, if that feels any better will maybe take the plunge on a set of Speedplays and some aftermarket long axles, they're only £40.
Edit: and yeah, flat pedals are at the back of my mind, if it meant just being able to get out and enjoy my riding I probably would, but can't help thinking that a set of SPDs with lots of float should be kinder to knees than flat pedals, seem to remember once your foot is down on a good set of flats it's kind of fixed in position!
I had a similar problem way back when I started riding a road bike again after having been on MTBs for years.
I was fine on the MtB but the road bike Q factor was just too narrow but where axle extenders were just too long. I managed to get around this by buying some new oldstock Look pedals (not made anymore) where you could adjust both the Q factor and the tilt of the pedal platform. I can’t remember the model number of the pedals but maybe you could do some research to see if you could pick up a pair secondhand.
I also found out that I generally had sensitive knees. They don’t like new cleats and I have to take a file to them to loosen them up and allow some play. Weirdly they also don’t like really worn pedals as the shoes start to sit/tilt on the pedals at a greater angle. Have you recently replaced the cleats or have worn pedals?
Cleats are worn, so I've got new ones on order, although unfortunately that will just throw another factor into the mix! Have been using Look's red cleats which have maximum float (well, not as much as Speedplay, but more than anyone else) so hopefully knees won't notice the difference.
Had heard about the old Looks that allowed q-factor adjustment, would want something I could replicated over three bikes though. Will still research anyway, although the cost of 1 or 2 sets of Speedplays would be reasonable if it could guarantee results.
Have been researching flat pedals and shoes, got to say it's tempting, especially for the singlespeed/daily bike, but most of the shoes look like great spongey suede monstrosities, would weigh more than the bike after a couple of puddle splashes! Also not sure if it actually gives you any more stance width, I guess some of the big DH pedals would, not those lovely looking KCNC road pedals...
Have you considered just riding for fun instead?
I recently noticed that my feet are sitting less outboard on my Vaults on my Levo - turns out the Q-factor is wider on the ebike. Yet another good thing! I always thought I’d rather have an 83mm BB on my bikes and I was right. My squat stance is pretty wide, my deadlift stance is wide, likewise on skis, etc.
I had no idea that road bikes were narrower - I can see the aero gain but hip widths and joint angles matter! I suppose you can add longer pedal axles to a narrow BB but can’t narrow a wide one.
I was having similar knee problems to you, but this was completely solved by highest most supportive insoles, shims and the longest speedplay axles on the road bikes, same width spds pedals by issi on the cross bikes and standard spds on the mountain bikes.
I’m now doing around 12000kms a year completely without knee pain.
Look CX7
Some new old stock online from USA from quick search
Look CX7 Flex like sh!t when they are wound out. To the point that you need to shim your cleats up. Pedal extenders on all my bikes solved a very similar problem. If they end up a too wide you could maybe move your cleats back in a bit.
Why is there such an obsession with narrow Q-factor anyway?
Have you considered just riding for fun instead?
Which part of riding without painful knees isn't fun? Or have I misunderstood the question?
Woody, thanks for the suggestion, had a look at the CX7s, but think I would rather spend a bit more money on e.g. Speedplays, and have something which is current and has spares available etc!
Pedal extenders on order along with new cleats, will have a play at the weekend.
I don't have any useful experience on pedal extenders to chime in with, but have plenty experience with varying Q factors.
The Q factor thing has bugged me for years, the desire to keep it narrow is a roadie affectation which has hampered MTB frame designers.
The only people who need to fret about super narrow Q are competitive TT riders looking for that fraction of a watt of aero gain.
I got my first fatbike back in 2012. The increased width just felt instantly normal. No pain, no feeling of a lack of power. As is the way with a new bike, I rode it constantly for the first few months while the susser lay in the shed.
What did feel a bit weird though, was going back to the narrower cranks. Again, not painful of horrible, but just really noticeable in a way that the jump the other way wasn't.
Which part of riding without painful knees isn’t fun? Or have I misunderstood the question?
Yeah. probably.
what I meant was why punish yourself on a turbo, seeing bike fitters, physios, using massage balls and training for CX when it's clearly ****ing your body up? it just doesn't seem worth it to me.
I enjoy just rolling around on a bike playing about on my own way more than racing though and I respect we're all different.
Either way. I hope you do get your knees sorted tho.
Your hips deal with Q factor.
Knees will give pain of there's the slightest bit of sideways torque on your feet. This means even if you are using pedals with float and your foot is operating up against the limit of rotation, even that slight pressure can mess up your knees.
Shimano SPD-SL pedals come in a version with an 8mm extended spindle meaning you can ride with your heels inwards in a relaxed position, same as they hang when you're sitting on a table. They are the best road pedals anyway, by a long chalk.
It could be many things and could well be that widening your stance helps. It may also be that the leg that's causing you issues is longer than the other and your instinctively shortening it when you move your knee out sideways.If this is the case maybe just simply moving the cleat backwards a bit(or maybe a lot) on the problem leg could help put the knee at a better angle for you.
I've got a mate who takes this imbalance to the extreme,he's got one leg around an inch and a half longer than the other.It's like he's got a built in shapeshifter when he chooses to stand up taller on the longer leg.
It's having differing Q factors on various bikes that can cause the issue, especially if not enough float.
Back to basics.
Check that the saddle is straight, and that the saddle rails are not bend and twisted. People are good at adjusting to something, even if it is wrong. But there are limitation, and pain is a clue.s
Check that the pedal spindle is not bent. This can happen in a fall or crash and you might not realise.
Try using flat pedals.
The advantage of using flat pedals is that you can make some adjustments to the foot position on the pedal as you ride along. But get some decent shoes.
Someone like Phil Burt still needs to see the rider on the bike and off the bike just to see how they move and to consider a number of factors. If a bike fitter just takes some measurements and then says this is what you should do then they are probably going to miss something important.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitness/body/ultimate-bikefit-saddle-former-team-sky-physio-phil-burt/