[Closed] PSA: Quick Release/Disc recalls

There's something fishy about this... Why would 2 of the world's biggest bike manufacturers (Spesh and Giant) be part of a 'group' of which they have no PR control?

And why on earth would it be a problem that your QR lever might foul your disc when it's in the OPEN position??

Is this the bike industry equivalent of the Facebook charges hoax that's doing the rounds?

I suspect the US government has forced this on them:

[url= http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Recalls/2015/Thirteen-Manufacturers-Distributors-Recall-Bicycles-with-Front-Disc-Brakes-to-Replace-Quick-Release-Lever/ ]http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Recalls/2015/Thirteen-Manufacturers-Distributors-Recall-Bicycles-with-Front-Disc-Brakes-to-Replace-Quick-Release-Lever/[/url]

It started a lot smaller a couple of months back but clearly wasn;t getting enough reach.

And why on earth would it be a problem that your QR lever might foul your disc when it's in the OPEN position??

because people with no mechanical aptitude ride around with the Q/R loose, and I've seen several bikes where people appear to have thought it is a wing nut and leave it in the "open" position, then screw it shut, and the torsional forces that disc brakes apply to forks means Q/Rs can come loose (fork twists under braking, puts Q/R under tension, when tension is relaxed it can unscrew as it also relaxes the tension in the threads), which is half the reason the manufacturers moved to bolt-thru. Trek did a similar recall themselves earlier this year, apparently.

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/trek-qrdisc-recall

surely this is easily solved by simply placing the lever on the other side?

I assume the fear is it will open when riding [ fork tabs keep wheel in place] and then foul the disc

You'd soon notice it fouling the disc, which would probably prevent you from riding any further? No? Probably preventing you pulling the brake? No? Probably preventing the torsional bla-de-bla-de-bla-de-bla... No?

Nice excuse for a new standard?
AND
Lizards can't do up QR's.

Makes you think.....

Trek did a recall about 3 Months ago.

My mate took his bike into the trek store, they replaced his skewer with a proper cheap and nasty one, then bent and destroyed the old one!
Not sure he was that happy about the look of the new skewer.

The Sheldon site commented on it a while back.
[url= http://www.sheldonbrown.com/qr-disk-brake.html ]http://www.sheldonbrown.com/qr-disk-brake.html[/url]

[i]You'd soon notice it fouling the disc[/i]

yep, 'cos the failure mode is that the lever gets caught in the rotor arms and stops the front wheel spinning.

You'll know it's happened because you'll be laying on the road watching your teeth roll away from you and wondering why you can see up your own nostril.

You'd soon notice it fouling the disc, which would probably prevent you from riding any further? No? Probably preventing you pulling the brake? No? Probably preventing the torsional bla-de-bla-de-bla-de-bla... No?

yeah you're absolutely right which is why the US Government's consumer safety committee has prompted 17 companies to recall millions of bikes 🙄 Perhaps you should email them. Oh and apologies if you don't understand physics.

surely this is easily solved by simply placing the lever on the other side?

probably what the LBS does with the recalled bike!

yeah you're absolutely right which is why the US Government's consumer safety committee has prompted 17 companies to recall millions of bikes Perhaps you should email them. Oh and apologies if you don't understand physics.

So you seriously think there's a huge problem with people setting off with their QRs undone and getting legged up by their own disc rotors? I suspect you know less about physics than me, and your common sense could do with brushing up.

[i]So you seriously think there's a huge problem with people setting off with their QRs undone and getting legged up by their own disc rotors?[/i]

define huge?

In economic terms this is probably cheaper for the manufacturers than dealing with the costs of any injuries that do occur as a result of the failure mode anticipated.

There's also the whole 'consumer confidence' thing. Ford spent years denying their pickup trucks would explode at the drop of a teaspoon but eventually backed down after a number of fatalities and huge negative publicity.

You seem to be arguing people just just chance it and hope they're not one of the unlucky few?

Huge? No. It doesn't take many injuries and the resultant claims for damages for recalls to be issued.

I suspect you know less about physics than me, and your common sense could do with brushing up.

You DO know I am just passing on the fact that the recall has been issued, in an attempt to help fellow forum users, and I didn't actually issue the recall myself, don't you? Like I said, you need to be telling the CPSC and 17 bike companies they're wrong, not me.

It's like that old computer support joke: User is so stupid, switch the computer off and hand it back. That kind of recall.

Massive exercise is arse-covering.

Don't bother with Shibboleth, you know he's trolling don't you?

You're all taking the piss but I'd read somewhere that there's already been a few injuries...there's people out there who don't seem to understand QR's 😆

gatsby - Member

So you seriously think there's a huge problem with people setting off with their QRs undone and getting legged up by their own disc rotors? I suspect you know less about physics than me, and your common sense could do with brushing up.

A couple of people have been hurt. Which to you and me is a few isolated incidents, but to bike companies with millions of QRs sold, is a massive legal liability waiting to happen.

If your extensive physics knowledge of physics is telling you that this can't cause an accident, then you're been proven wrong by reality. And if your common sense is telling you it isn't a problem, then you're probably not top of that class either.

You seem to be arguing people just just chance it and hope they're not one of the unlucky few?

Unlucky few? Unlucky? What's unlucky about putting a bike together completely wrong, probably ignoring the bit on the QR lever where it clearly says "Open" and "Closed" and then setting off with your lever fouling the disk???

For a start, if it were to foul the disk, the resultant noise would compel anyone with a brain to get off the bike and check what the problem is...

If said person was stupid enough to carry on riding in the misguided hope that the noise would go away, the chances of them being flipped over the bars are pretty slim, because most cyclist don't suddenly set off at 20mph. The chances are that the front wheel would lock up, skid slightly and alert the idiot that they'd made a pig's ear of putting their bike back together.

If, by some utterly bizarre twist of fate, they managed to carry on riding, ignoring the cacophony of mangling metal coming from their front wheel, to the point where crashtestmuppet's torsional forces slowly but surely unbolt their badly-assembled quick release causing them to eat tarmac, then all I can say is that I hope their endeavors remove them from the gene pool as quickly and efficiently as possible.

These people should not be protected.

Fox tried the 'it's your own stupid fault' line;

[url= http://www.bikeradar.com/us/news/article/fox-shox-claims-accident-was-russell-pinders-own-fault-19206/ ]http://www.bikeradar.com/us/news/article/fox-shox-claims-accident-was-russell-pinders-own-fault-19206/[/url]

they settled out of court in the end.

Settled. Not really the same as it being proven that it wasn't his "own stupid fault"... Which it was.

I've seen a few bikes over the years with the QR lever in the open position and the rider has just used the lever to screw the skewer up tight.
So really its user mis-operation rather than any intrinsic failure of the QR itself.

[i]Which it was[/i]

*walks away*

*walks away rather than accept that "settled out of court" is absolutely, in no way remotely the same as "were found to be negligent in a court of law"*

In STW style, I fixed it for you... 🙄

[b]

Don't bother with Shibboleth, you know he's trolling don't you?

The link to the previous thread above is very informative.
Lots of stuff I didn't know.

I do repairs on just about all the bikes from £50 specials to decent mtb's/roadies in the small town where i live and you cannot underestimate the amount of mechanical ineptitude that the average user has when it comes to bike maintenance - if this stops a few otb face plants then all well and good.

Personally, I think this represents a worrying shift in the dynamics of blame culture. If an individual is no longer held in any way responsible for their ineptitude, it means that the morons will just get richer by winning life-changing sums of prize money for their stupidity! People like wwaswas will end up wealthier than me!!

I fear it spells the end of the human race as we know it.

Or a combination of underspecced components and an inadequate test regime?

Oh and a shifting demographic. No QR's on golf clubs.
😉
Seriously, lots of newbies out there.

Are we talking about the QR issue or [s]shib[/s] gatsby?

you know how sometimes you post something, and it doesn't go how you expected it to? Yeah, that.

Gatsby, I can only assume you've never had much contact with the 'average' member of the bike riding public.

Riding around with the following faults is common

> axles/cones loose, like properly loose knocking from side to side and eltting bearings fall out loose
> QR skewers loose, and just being spun 'tight' every few days
> tyres with no rubber left on the centre tread
> axle nuts done up hand tight
> stems/bars done up hand tight
> brake disconnected
> snapped brake cables
> cranks that fall off every few weeks

Since none of those things stop the bike being ridden from place A to place B people just carry on and ignore it, especially when the price of a service from their LBs may well be 33x what they paid for the bike.

now that disk brakes and QRs are prevalent on so many cheap crappy bikes, and have filtered through the 2nd hand system over the last 5-10 years there are a lot more people using them that don't understand how they work.

To most people they still expect a wheel to be held on with two nuts that they spinning tight to do up, they treat QRs as the same but with a lever meaning they don't need a spanner, genius!

I've lost count of the amount of times I've tried to explain about the cam action and how it works, to otherwise not-stupid people too, and it still doesn't seem to sink in with a scary number of them.

The failure mode of these QRs means that it can go from 'a bit loose'/'barely noticeable' to spun round and locked your disc/front wheel in the space of a few feet.

You or I might know how to operate them correctly and notice issues, many others wont, and that's the reason for this recall.

I'm all for personal responsibility and learning to operate and look after your kit, and this isn't so much about shifting blame as it is reducing the opportunity for accident due to a poor design AND lack of proper understanding. Even with the replacement skewer or it moved to the other side there is still the potential for people to misuse them, but hopefully the consequences won't be as catastrophic without this particular design flaw.

You or I might know how to operate them correctly and notice issues, many others wont, and that's the reason for this recall.

But how the hell is our species going to advance if we stifle cause and effect and allow the morons to survive?

As I see it there's two different issues here:
1). A QR that's poorly designed so it could undo itself (I think this was the basis of Pinder's argument), that's definitely the manufacturer's fault and should be subject to a recall IMO
2). A QR that is safe when used properly that has been left open/loose due to user error, which is what this recall seems to be about. To me this is crazy that they're having to do a recall, the standard note in the user manual that it's the user's responsibility to check bolt and fastening before each ride should cover this (along with instructions on how to use a QR correctly).

I think Pinder's case was that it was possible for *any* QR to 'self undo' due to precession etc - this may have prompted the actions currently as much as the 'numpty user' argument.

The manufacturers don't want a case involving injury from QR 'failure' to ever get to a judgement as it would open the flood gates for anyone who's ever been injured by a loose QR to sue them.

the reason for the recall is the potential failure mode when used improperly.

**ANY** QR can be used improperly, and left loose, which may eventually lead to a wheel falling out, but for normal pootling will probably just manifest as wobble and rattle (especially with Lawyer Lips on most forks)

But these QRs don't just wobble and flap, they 'over-open' meaning the lever can jam in the disk very quickly and stop the front wheel.

The consequences of mis-operation or forgetfulness in case 1 is markedly different to case 2, you'll never get rid of case 1 failures completely because some people will forget or mis-operate, but you can completely fix case 2 failures by recalling the duff skewers.

I say leave them be, let the inept thin themselves out a bit. The bike companies get to stay in business and we get cheaper bikes plus quieter trails. It's a win-win situation.

In addition to people forgetting to do up, or not knowing how to do up a QR properly, that there is clear evidence of, I recon its entirely feasible that a QR could possibly be rattled, or knocked loose/into an open position.

Its then entirely feasible that this could then swing all the way open, and then it could jam in the disc rotor resulting in fiery death...

unlikely but i can see it as possible.

Haven't read all the bickering above so this may have been covered, but can this not be solved by just putting the QR lever the other way through the hub?

Edit: junkyard beat me to it

can this not be solved by just putting the QR lever the other way through the hub?

Yes, can you just pop round and do that to everyone's then?

The website couldn't tell you what to do?

I went through a phase of ti axles that weighed 44g for both. But when I was out of the saddle the discs would rub. The bb7s never seemed happy.

I then changed to the dt Swiss rws skewers and I wouldn't go back, well not on my commuter bike anyway. They are expensive but 50% stronger connection and you can really tell. 6 months in and they've been faultless.

http://www.starbike.com/p/DT-Swiss-RWS-MTB-2726-en?currency=GBP&gclid=CLyqpbrXnsgCFafnwgod-2UHmw

The website couldn't tell you what to do?

it could, but you'd be relying on user competence, and these are users that didn't RTFM where it says something along the lines of "check and tighten before every ride", and why in Trek's case they went to the lengths of changing the Q/R lever to one that could not possibly do this, even if the user was wilfully incompetent. They are trying to eliminate not just reduce risk.

Haven't read all the bickering above so this may have been covered, but can this not be solved by just putting the QR lever the other way through the hub?

You can, but it _may_ be more likely to slowly unwind itself in that case.

[url= http://www.kinetics-online.co.uk/uncategorized/disc-brake-safety-issues/ ]http://www.kinetics-online.co.uk/uncategorized/disc-brake-safety-issues/[/url]

crashtestmonkey - Member

it could, but you'd be relying on user competence

But the website has instructions for the user on how to fit the new QR?

gary - Member

You can, but it _may_ be more likely to slowly unwind itself in that case.

http://www.kinetics-online.co.uk/uncategorized/disc-brake-safety-issues/

Ah, that solves it then, thanks

I know (hope) you're just trolling Gatsby but there are plenty of people out there who could get caught out by this and losing teeth or worse is hardly a fair punishment for not knowing how to use QR or being a bit forgetful.

In addition to people forgetting to do up, or not knowing how to do up a QR properly, that there is clear evidence of, I recon its entirely feasible that a QR could possibly be rattled, or knocked loose/into an open position.

Not to mention the fact that the force required to properly secure a QR (especially one to be used with Discs) is beyond the capability of a a fair few people, kids, elderly, a lot of women*, I know for a fact my mum can't do it, and my wife struggles to, hers have worked loose before simply because she cant do it up tight enough in the first place.

*not a sexist comment, not a sexist comment, not a sexist comment, repeat after me, not a sexist comment.

Is Gatsby Shibboleth? Never realised that. Shibby seemed quite a reasonable fellow (in the main), whilst the same cannot be levelled at Gatsby 😆

One presumes the delay after Trek did their recall suggests there have been more injuries, I can't believe it's taken the industry/CSPC this long to follow suit.

The point of a qr is to quickly allow you to release/change and then tighten the wheel. It needs to be done with a high amount of tension or it will eventually losen itself with the force of disc brakes. The fact that they are so particular about the tension and it's not that clear if you've done it right means you need lawyer tabs so your wheel doesn't fall out. Which of course, means that a qr is no longer that quick. And if you are in a race and not thinking as clearly as you should, then it doesn't seem like that great a design.

Add in the fact that these qr will potentially send you over the bars instantly if it comes lose I would have thought it should be recalled.

Blaming user error on a poorly designed product is wrong. Everyone defends qr's by saying it's user error when it's just a c**p design.

Indeed, to be honest, there is no good reason to have QRs on most* bikes, through-axles are obviously better in all regards but nutted axles would be so much safer and more reliable, and for general use would hardly be any bother, the only time the average cyclist needs to remove a wheel is when they have a puncture, and sadly the vast majority wouldn't fix a puncture themselves anyway these days 🙁

I think it all stems from the fact that 'quality' racing bikes came with QR's and therefore trickle down and the idea that it's some kind of mark of a 'decent' bike is what pushed them out to general bikes years ago, same as sus forks and 'mostly for show' disc brakes on catalogue bikes.

*as in ones used day to day round town for commuting and leisure, and in fact even most recreational MTB and road use...

Trek did this last month also read the article it's America only! ( so far) it's mainly on low quality hubs and QR's just turn the QR to the other side of the hub problem sorted

Bike radar article reads better
http://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/news/article/17-brands-recall-1-5-million-bikes-for-quick-release-issue-45349/

just turn the QR to the other side of the hub problem sorted

you might want to read more of the posts prior to yours...

[img] [/img]

It's arse covering against dimwits who in reality would be best served by Darwin's ideas. Cheaper and better for PR to do this than do what they should really say which is hard luck ****wit. 40 years of Qr's and I have never had one come undone because I use them properly.
I despair of society nowadays.

Of course the alternative is do as Cotic did with forks and have the discs on the right.

[i]the alternative is do as Cotic did with forks and have the discs on the right.[/i]

or stop using QR's which were designed by a bicycle racer who wanted to be able to get wheels out of the dropouts quickly and easily and was prepared to accept some compromise on numpty-proofing/security?

through/bolt in axles make so much more sense both from a security point of view and structural stiffness.

40 years of Qr's and I have never had one come undone because I use them properly.

Sounds like the smoker who says they've had 40 years of smoking and never once got lung cancer.
There are plenty of people who are experienced, not numpties, and yet their QR have come lose or even un-done. QR's are a rubbish design.
And you have not used a qr with disk brakes for 40 years.

Gatsby, I can only assume you've never had much contact with the 'average' member of the bike riding public.

Riding around with the following faults is common

This entirely.
They aren't stupid, dimwits or whatever, they just don't know because nobody told them.
Also, there's plenty of very experienced cyclists who make the most basic of errors too.