Doesn't generally bother me when I'm looking. Might depend on the brand though.
Wierd Hope rear hub, not a problem, it's hope, why would I want to change it?
Cannondale cranks, they'll probably last the life of the bike anyway.
Forks/headsets, are there any trully propriatory ones? Cannondale are IIRC, but the hesdtube itself isn't.
TBH the more I ride the less I'm fussed about upgradeability. Back in ~2000 you could make a bike better with decent forks, disk brakes, riser bars. These days while a £5k superbike might be better than the £2000 GX model. The incremental benefit of a £800 Fork or £300 brakeset over a 35 or deore 4 pots is so minimal that does it really matter if they suddenly made them propriatory?
Shocks would worry me. Mtb'ing archives are littered with proprietary shocks that never worked out.
Didn’t Hope change the rear end of their bikes because someone had a problem while abroad and couldn’t just bodge/ temporarily replace something mid-trip which meant the bike was out of action (even thought Hope preferred their own way of doing it)?
I seem to remember reading that somewhere in a press release last year.
You know Hope will be supporting their kit for way longer than the life of the bike, but it doesn’t help you out when you’ve broken it and want to ride tomorrow.
Another who says 'yes'.
Picture this... you have a new Canyon road bike at between 5 and 10 grand. 4 months old.
You've now been told not to ride it until July or later as the unique handlebars can and do break. And fheckall you can do to be riding as there is no standard alternative to fit.
Then the same bike has a unique seat post that's shiiite and the maker doesn't even have a fix for that yet. And again you can't just put a standard one in.
I got a new road bike 15 months ago. A Specialized Tarmac. One of the reasons was it had ZERO unique components. Standard stem. Standard bars. Standard round seat post. And... a THREADED bottom bracket too !! Thank **** for that. No stooopid creaking press fit either.
I was put off a Trek Emonda by the dumb-ass seat post that slides over the seat post rather than inside it. Because you just KNOW you'll not get a new one when the monkey metal clamp fails in 3 years.
Try getting some of the TT bike integrated stems at present. No chance.
Yep I can't even stand own brand parts = especially on expensive bikes. There's no excuse for not putting quality branded finishing kit on big budget bikes. I'm looking at you Trek and Specialized.
Proprietary parts definitely put me off, but I own a cannondale and a Look road bike. So apparently I can look past the issue. I have to say some of the Proprietary stuff on my Look seems like genius, others is just mental.
Yup, have no time for that nonsense. I tried to find the front mech mount for my Pitch (yes, ten years later) but not a damn thing. Doesn't bother me now but was annoying at the time. I like being able to switch stuff between bikes.
zerocool
Full MemberDidn’t Hope change the rear end of their bikes because someone had a problem while abroad and couldn’t just bodge/ temporarily replace something mid-trip which meant the bike was out of action (even thought Hope preferred their own way of doing it)?
I seem to remember reading that somewhere in a press release last year.
You know Hope will be supporting their kit for way longer than the life of the bike, but it doesn’t help you out when you’ve broken it and want to ride tomorrow.
The new ones are standard boost. And yep, basically when they announced the bikes, everyone in the world said "why is the hub a weird size? Why is the brake mount weird?" and they said "we know best", and then Reasons occurred and it turned out they didn't know best and changed all the designs for the later bikes.
I think the arithmetic for "how much is it worth to us, to tie our customers to our products" and "how much do we actually believe this is better" vs "how much does it cost us to have people put off buying the bike in the first place" and "how much do customers believe it is better or worse" is probably pretty complicated.
30.0mm seat clamp, as on ON-One. What a pain in the proverbial, i mean 31.8 you can get anywhere, but a 30 needs ordered in.
Maybe ok today, but on places like Retrobike, these odd sized bits are a complete nightmare to find.
Probably not but only if the design and engineering of the frame/bike gave tangible benefits. Unfortunately my last bike had absolute shite engineering and worse performance and was that disappointing I 'retired' from riding bikes.
Absolute POS Cannondale Jekyll 27.5"
I think the arithmetic for “how much is it worth to us, to tie our customers to our products” and “how much do we actually believe this is better” vs “how much does it cost us to have people put off buying the bike in the first place” and “how much do customers believe it is better or worse” is probably pretty complicated
That's a long-winded way of saying "I think it's complicated".
Absolutely 100% wouldn't buy or even have given (well I'd have given but resell immediately).
Its a liability .. as other have said walking into a shop on holiday, spares availability... being able to take a part off one bike and stick it on another.
Especially if you’re the sort to go big on the purchase with a view to keeping the bike for the long haul?
Both VERY VERY subjective...
My youngest bikes are 2015 ... my oldest ... 2002-2003 but that's a hack commuter?
Now I think I have 5x 2015 bikes... one is a HT.
All run 11sp and drive chains and 27.5 non boost wheels and are interchangable....
All 4x FS have the same shock dimensions
All brakes are interchangable (although mix of 4 pot and 2 pot then CAN be used)
Forks are nearly interchangable ... in that I could technically fit some fox 32's to the Enduro but it would be daft... and would also require a shim for the OD2.
Then I have a 2012 bike that is to all intents and purposes junk. No way to economically replace the straight steerer 26" forks with 20mm thru axle... 27.2 seatpost...
Then I have a couple of "updated 25 yr old designs"
I missed out on buying a 29er Jack flash because it was on sale but the mech hangar wasn't listed on Planet X and you'd have to be either stupid or treat bikes as disposable to buy a bike without a replacement mech hangar.
I took a punt on the 26 frame at £100 as Planet X refused to release specs for headsets and BB but then that depends if you call £100 "go big". As it turns out the BB and headset were standard so I can't understand the logic of planet X refusing to disclose these but I bought it having decided if anything was non standard I'd just bin the frame or try and resell on ebay???
I've also got a 25yr old design updated DMR Trailstar which I bought BECAUSE of the standards.
Same drivechain, interchangable brakes, wheels, forks ... available dropouts... (swapouts)
and they said “we know best”, and then Reasons occurred
LOL ...
The new ones are standard boost.
Their marketing on HB's sucks then...
I was interested, more interested when they dropped the price ... but I didn't see a marketing of "REASONS" ... I wasn't looking as I'd been turned off already as I suppose most potential buyers had been.
TBF to Hope, they did know best in the case of the radial brake mount - it's way better than IS or PM, and literally needs 2x 10mm spacers to go from 180mm to 200mm rotor. And the 130x17mm rear hub does the same as boost, but with a narrower width. There's no axle on the hub - the bearings run on the frame axle.
The Mk1 HB.130 had this setup for the axle but PM for the brake as they also sold a frame kit. the Mk2 saw the intro of Boost with PM as that's what people wanted, not necessarily what was best.
Hasn't every single FS frame that has ever been (to a greater or lesser extent) got proprietary bits? Especially if it's say; linkage driven?
I swap bikes a fair bit so not a deal breaker but I would give it extra thought, sometimes avoid for a couple of years to see how it pans out.
I guess some of those original quirky parts are now the norm🚵
Didn’t Hope change the rear end of their bikes because someone had a problem while abroad and couldn’t just bodge/ temporarily replace something mid-trip
Don't the Hope cranks require some special tools to remove/fit that would be just as much of a problem? The radial brake mount and wide spaced (but narrow) rear hub for better heel and rock clearance both made a lot of sense. And Hope have a good history of supporting their stuff long term.
The stuff I'd not touch is 'special' rear shocks on a sus bike. Specialized, Cannondale, Scott are all guilty. I've had enough internal parts and shafts on shocks replaced over the years that I'd not touch those.
Giant's stuff is just annoying - I didn't realise the steerer on my road bike was oversize until I tried swapping the stem. It also has a 'D-fuse' flat backed seat post.
Most of the 'evolved' standards on mtb's are just annoying. I tried to keep stuff common across all our bikes a few years back - could grab a wheel from another bike if a spoke broke, or ever for different tyres. fewer spares to carry on long rides etc etc. Every bike currently needs different brake pads. 3 different mtb stem/bar standards (still have some old 28.2 bars on K's oldest hardtail) - was there *really* a need for 35mm?.
The one that made my jaw drop the other day was 12x100mm bolt through front hubs for gravel bikes. WTF did they not use existing 15x100mm? The argument for making stuff bigger (35mm bars) is that stuff can be made stronger for the same weight.
zerocool
Didn’t Hope change the rear end of their bikes because someone had a problem while abroad and couldn’t just bodge/ temporarily replace something mid-trip which meant the bike was out of action (even thought Hope preferred their own way of doing it)?
That was my main issue - if I break a wheel or a brake, I just grab one off another bike/borrow from a friend/buy in a shop and I'm good again. Not happening with a Hope - their support is great, to be fair, but it's still a special order from them if anythign goes wrong, and you're locked into their brakes and hubs.
b33k34
Don’t the Hope cranks require some special tools to remove/fit that would be just as much of a problem?
The original ones did, but all the tools were supplied in the box. Still a fiddly PITA to fit or remove. Current cranks only need a big allen key.
Giant’s stuff is just annoying – I didn’t realise the steerer on my road bike was oversize until I tried swapping the stem. It also has a ‘D-fuse’ flat backed seat post.
My stem is OD2 but the steerer is standard 1.5-1.125 and there is a shim type spacer and oversized stem spacers
The one that made my jaw drop the other day was 12x100mm bolt through front hubs for gravel bikes. WTF did they not use existing 15x100mm?
12x100 is a road standard, 15x100 would be a bit chunky for roadies - there are 15mm gravel forks out there too.
Hmm, bit confusing this thread.
nickc
Full Member
Hasn’t every single FS frame that has ever been (to a greater or lesser extent) got proprietary bits? Especially if it’s say; linkage driven?Posted 24 minutes ago
Exactly, linkages for a full sus bike, how many linkages are common across a range (let alone different brands) for full sus bikes? that's what i would call proprietary. Most (and i do caveat that with 'most'!) shocks are different standards but not proprietary, the mounting hardware on the other hand...
Same with wheels, forks, cranks: there aren't many that are proprietary to a bike/manufacturer, but they may not be the 'standard' that you already have on another bike.
Time moves on, 26" forks aren't made any more as there isn't a market for them (as to why - different thread). Obsolescence of a once new standard is part of the development at the bleeding edge of selling new bikes, but there are normally quite a few manufacturers making components that fit.
In answer to the op, nope it doesn't put me off, but I DO look closely at warranty coverage these days if i'm buying new frames to cover any potential risk.
Tbh,does but I think you’ve got to unfortunately treat a bike as a consumer durable, sometimes the new features that come along later are actually worth having.
(Er but freecycle or recycle)
Ride and wear it out, rinse and repeat.
It’s the riding that counts,smiles per miles 😉
That was my main issue – if I break a wheel or a brake, I just grab one off another bike
The times I’ve sat at home with a pile of broken bikes where I’ve robbed Peter to ride Paul then Paul breaks 🙂
With the Hope radial caliper, yes, you're locked in, but Hope calipers rarely go wrong and when they do they can be serviced. And all of the parts bar the actual caliper body can be scavenged from another E4 brake.
It's more things like proprietary shock sizes or shocks, and even linkages and bolt kits for rear sus parts, or even Rock Shok forks and shocks where only sub-assemblies can be bought (if at all). Remember the Charger 1 seal head - that was in the service kit. People have been complaining that no such things exist for the newer Chargers.
Most (and i do caveat that with ‘most’!) shocks are different standards but not proprietary, the mounting hardware on the other hand…
Mounting hardware isn't hard though. TFT machine custom sizes every wednesday (I think it is)... and if you need a 22x8 but put in a 21.8x8 it's still working or the other way you can buy a 22mm and sand off .2mm
Hope is a bit of an outlier.
You buy the bike because you are a hope fan - and therefore you specifically want hope hubs and brakes.
Well, yeah. Not going to deny that.
You could go SHope. Saint master cylinders (or XRT Race if you don't want ServoWave), E4 calipers and use the Shimano seals from the RX4 (though you'd need 4 kits).
100% put me off, have made that mistake already.
One of my old road bikes (no longer ridden outside, permanently attached to the turbo trainer) has a headset that is not only unique to the brand, but unique to that model. 1990s Vitus 992
It's something I'll consider and factor in for the potential hassle of replacement. For me not necessarily a complete turn off depending on the part & if there is potential for replacement by other brands.
I bought a brand new 2007 Spesh Enduro SL Pro when they came out that had the Futureshock E150 forks & Spesh rear shock. After about a year I sold the Spesh forks & rear shock & simply replaced with Lyrik U-Turn forks and a Fox RP23 rear shock, much better.
Likewise I had a brand new 2008 Stumpjumper FSR Pro that had the Spesh Brain rear shock. It failed twice under warranty so in the end sold the repaired shock & replaced with a Fox RP23, like the Enduro SL it improved the bike (I replaced the Spesh rear shock as much because I didnt really like the Brain as opposed to it's rebound valving circuit blowing up!).
Depends what it is. I have a hankering for an old school linkage fork (amp, lawill etc) and a Super V with Headshox.
I'd avoid a Scott with a proprietary shock though 😉
Years ago Brant designed a singlespeed inbred with unique chain tugs that bent under power. Couldn't get new ones even shortly after. Annoying.
