[Closed] Proposal to ban 4 x 4s on Stanage Causeway and Roych Clough

I must admit, I'm not in full support if this. the motorbikes and 4x4s I've seen in there have all been responsible and friendly. Where will they be able to go?

I'm with Chris on this. You're only punishing the responsible ones, the irresponsible ones will just use illegal tracks if you take away legal ones.

Tend to feel a bit sorry for the 4x4 bulb convoys you ride past on the Roych - it's only right that they have somewhere to drive. Easier for the motorcyclists just to ride where-ever on the QT, cheeky trails in a 4x4 would seem a more difficult proposition (could be wrong - maybe they all go out tearing up the moors at night).

And Roych is a giggle in its current state, though whether that would change significantly either because it gets flattened or utterly trashed dependent on the PDNP plans.

They've been trying to manage the Roych Clough BOAT for years. Loads of resurfacing works, a voluntary one-way system so this really must be last resort stuff if they want to ban them.

I know they're banned on Chapel Gate although the initial response was that the ban was only going to be while re-surfacing works were done but it's still closed to vehicles. That section (bottom of Chapel Gate over Roych Clough, Mount Famine down to Hayfield) used to be the longest unbroken section of BOAT in the UK hence why it was so popular.

I'd have more sympathy for green laners if they weren't such miserable bastards. They always look and act like they're having an awful time. One of the reasons I ride off-road is to get away from grumpy arsehole motorists in SUVs, and they do properly **** up the trails they use, so I can't say I'd be bothered to see them go.

Edit: yes, as Garry_Lager says most of the MXers will just carry on riding wherever they fancy anyway...

A few weeks back I was overtaken by about 50 motor bikes as they rode up to Stanage Pole from Redmires to protest about the proposals.

Talk about "How to make friends and influence people" - well, they were certainly doing the latter

A few weeks back I was overtaken by about 50 motor bikes as they rode up to Stanage Pole from Redmires to protest about the proposals.

Talk about "How to make friends and influence people" - well, they were certainly doing the latter

If you really feel that legal use by motor vehicles renders a trail unusable then just use some of the other 98% they don't get to, or a trail centre, or the cheeky trails that don't even officially exist. With the whole country to ride on it's amazing you can actually have a problem with those few restricted to a few measly percent.

Maybe it's the almost limitless good fortune enjoyed by UK mountain bikers that breeds this sense of privileged entitlement.

I tend to turn left down the plantation bridleway nowadays rather than following long causeway all the way to the bottom cos of having to stop and wait for queues of defenders creeping slowly up/down the track. 🙄

I'd have more sympathy for green laners if they weren't such miserable bastards

There is a temporary ban on 4X4s up Stanage has a wall has collapsed up by Redmires.Still all right for motobikes.They made it into a Boat on June 4 this year.Must be difficult to get a 4x4 up there.Great on a motobike did it last week.They repair chapel Gate then the anties got a TRO on it last July.Also they have now fenced of top Abney moor i presume for livestock?Maybe to stop motobikes going straight over and down to Shatton which is crap compared to Brough Lane.
Mind if you go into the Quarry behind Castleton and see all those rocks placed either side of the track and all the pointless blue notices.When it rains the sides are bare so its going to get hammered compared to few trials bikes going up the steep sides which they can do anyway.They do some strange things up there.
Yet no one worries about the trialing over the mass of rocks near 3shires head.Funny old world.

In a way I'm happy to see it stopped. If I wanted to compete for space with fat chavs in motor vehicles I would have a road bike.

then again, once they start banning things it makes me wonder who is next

As someone who rides over Stanage on night rides I've also got a bit of a problem with banning 4x4s on this stretch. They have to go somewhere and it's a route that seems to stand up OK, and if you ban them then there's going to be a larger number driving wherever they feel like it, so there'll be more problems than there are now.

I have driven (Landy) and ridden both these routes many times in the past.

The number of greenlanes in England is deceasing rapidly and it is a shame. I'm always very friendly to other trail users whatever mode of transport I am using. In fact the grumpier the other party (walkers / ramblers...)appears to be the chirpier I become. Kill 'em with kindness!

The irresponsible minority will always find a way to behave and drive like tw*ts regardless of the legal staus of a particular lane. It's sad that all greenlaners are tarred with the same brush.

Live and let live....

We always lokk the lesser evil to walkers as a crossers blats passed us both 😀

Are you there not loads of roads that are specially set up for cars to drive on?

Some of them even ended up with Tarmac on...

[i]then again, once they start banning things it makes me wonder who is next

[/i]

exactly, the red-socks would have us next in their sights

That's pretty redundant logic. Why don't you just get a road bike? Presumably these off-roaders do it because they enjoy it?

Heres an entrant for stupidist things to say...In Edale/end of todays ride a nerdy cute walker passes with big jugs in a straining Berghaus top...

I said "nice day for doing it"?

Oops

why don't they have a chargeable structure to these green lanes, to pay for upkeep/maintenance?

The guys must spend enough on their vehicles and fuel that the charge for using the lanes will be insignificant.

Counter argument

why are there so many [b]roads[/b] being maintained to a standard that leaves them unsuitable for a class of traffic that has a legal right to use them?

(and yes, many of these routes are unclassified county roads, recorded on the list of streets as maintainable at public expense...)

Zulu has it, these people are being banned from their legal rights of way

Perhaps they should just ride cheeky boats

A chargeable structure HAY???We have one its call Road Tax.All vehicles on UCR/Boats have to be road legal.So the maintenance should come out of that.They are part of the Highways if they are not how can they put TROs on them!!.
Just look at the roads the lanes dont stand a chance.Mind they must have plenty of money in the Peaks to do Chapel gate/Roych Clough/few by Hartington etc.

I will be writing to the Peak District Natiponal Park to say my preference is that these routes are closed to recreational motors (call them offroaders, scramble bikes, 4x4s, green laners whatever you like) and that the routes are kept for use by walkers, cyclists, horses and horse-drawn-carriages who can better enjoy the peace and tranquillity that a relatively motor-free route will then enjoy. For goodness sake if you can’t escape motors in the wildest parts of a National Park then the Parks are failing to be the special places that they should be.

They have done a similar thing with many of the routes in the Yorkshire Dales (about 5 years ago) and these routes have been so much better since then (routes like Stockdale, Long Lane (Clapham), Gorbeck, Arncliffe Cote, Mastilles and so many more) that are now even more fantastic.

C

Ok on a serious note. Bridleways are supposed to be used/not put off access however how is a horse rider supposed to approach and use Roych? Should they avoid using this section now or do what countless cyclists (yes Ive not seen any ride the now bedrock dropff on the bridleway. Everyone uses the chicken runs creating wider damage.

Its virtually unusable for most and Devils advocate what if someone hurt themselves on a bike; took alot of pics and argued the bad state of the bridleway merited compensation?

Im ALL for access to all and techy however its not sustainable in its current shape there. Go see. I did yestersay. Ive never taken the chicken run however its getting silly now. If it was sanitised it would take alot of expense to get it that way. Who should pay for this?

Are you going to suggest they close the carpark at the bottom too, and the road round the side? Because I can clearly see and hear motor vehicles from those when in stannage

I might ask them to close the road at the end of my street too, my house would be much quieter then and it'd benefit a street of 100 people 24/7 not just on sunny weekends.

I will be writing to the Peak District Natiponal Park to say my preference is that these routes are closed to recreational motors (call them offroaders, scramble bikes, 4x4s, green laners whatever you like) and that the routes are kept for use by walkers, cyclists, horses and horse-drawn-carriages who can better enjoy the peace and tranquillity that a relatively motor-free route will then enjoy. For goodness sake if you can’t escape motors in the wildest parts of a National Park then the Parks are failing to be the special places that they should be.

Both trails are rock-fests as well, down to the bedrock in the case of the Roych, so it's certainly not an erosion issue where motors are cutting up a soft trail.

For goodness sake if you can’t escape motors in the wildest parts of a National Park then the Parks are failing to be the special places that they should be.

It is sad to see us happy to see another set of users rights curtailed [ they have way less rights and access than we do] whilst we brag about using cheeky trails

The countryside is for everyone, walkers, horsits, cyclists and folk in 4x4.

FWIW i dont really like them tbh but I support their right to use what limited BOATs they can.
IME MX'ers are far more irresponsible/dangerous and do more damage than green laners.

We are just like walkers when it comes to this yeah ban them but protect us.

its a national park for everyone not fo just what i want to do

next they'll be banning the dumping of dismembered prostitutes in our beautiful parks many reservoirs.

*up in arms*

If the 4x4s and scramble bikes were only using BOATs it wouldn’t be as bad as it is now. Most of the tracks they use are unsurfaced UCRs (where rights are not proven either way but because of that they cannot be stopped) or Byway Application tracks (about 120 tracks in the Peaks) where again there is no proof either way. Both of these track-types far outnumber BOATs.

The Park is of the opinion that even though a group of motorbikes disturbance is transient, the disturbance of peace and tranquillity diminishes the experience for others for the whole day and far from being limited to the track, the noise etc spreads across open land and can be heard up to several Km away.

I think it is very likely that in some years to come, ‘offroading’ (as it is colloquially called) will be stopped in all National Parks and they will be set aside as a place for peaceful enjoyment, fresh air and fitness and as such to be a ‘special’ place, different to the rest of the nation’s countryside.

Central Government has already started to make noises in this direction, there is sizable public support for this and I can’t see it not-happening in 10 or 15 years’ time. Tell me I’m wrong, that there is not a strong will to move in that direction and I’ll prove you wrong!

C

You can hear vehicles from km away on tarmac roads & see 4 power stations from redmires, the Peak hasn't been a wilderness for hundreds if not thousands of years.

Since you are such a fan of keeping the Peak quiet & moving people on who don't agree with you, might I suggest you take yourself and your flapping chain, loud freehub & squealing brakes to a trail centre where you'll not find any motorised vehicles

Oh, you don't like that idea because it's not real mountain biking and you should be able to ride where you like...

In 10 to 15 years time we'll be swamped by electric bikes that don't need registering, don't make noise and can still be used on bridalways. There are already 2 flying up and down the hills round here that I know of, how will they ban them? Probably by banning bikes altogether? Maybe, maybe not

All pastimes are equal, just some are more equal than others?

I try not to have a problem with any trail users, so long as they're trying to be sensible about how they use the countryside - likewise neither am I especially fussed about the legality or otherwise of the trails being used. To me it's about leaving the trails as you found them. There's FPs that make sense to be ridden on all year round. There's BWs or BOAT/RUPPs that only make sense for anybody to use when they're either bone dry or frozen solid.

The motorised end of the world I think has much harder job on their hands as it's so easy to cause damage. We've all seen crossers spraying rocks about the place because the rider has got stuck and then just trys using brute force to get unstuck. We've all seen 4x4s getting equally stuck and just sitting there grinding away and digging themselves a deeper and deeper hole. I've also seen 4x4 drivers dismantling dry stone walls to try and level out steps they can't get up. All just crap. As for the ones who seem to go out to deliberately get stuck, so they can play with their winches, well, not something I can erally get my head round.

The level of noise and smell (especially the MXers) don't help, and I could live without the traffic jams on Pindale or Stanage Causeway that mean you have to get off and push past when you're trying to ride up.

But then bikers and walkers are no better either. There's a chicken line most of the way down the Beast. Or on the steppy bit of the Roych. Just - why? Neither are especially hard descents (the steps on Roych are reasonably easy to ride up), and hell, the whole point of riding bikes in the Peaks is to go and ride over big rocks, quickly! The Beast especially - the chicken line must be awful because it's thick gloopy mud, not grippy rock.

So even though they can be a PITA I'm not a fan of banning anybody from anywhere. The MXers will just carry on as they were, but illegally. The 4x4s will be the most affected, but are arguably the smallest group - certainly the slowest moving one! And yes, after that, I suspect we would be next.

Most of the tracks they use are unsurfaced UCRs (where rights are not proven either way but because of that they cannot be stopped)

The clue is in the name, unclassified county [b]road[/b]. they are routes which are maintainable at the public expense, and there is a statutory duty to maintain them in a safe and fit state for that traffic

The councils have been claiming, in both central government and rates revenues for maintaining them for decades - the fact that they have chosen to spend that money elsewhere, and therefore the drainage and surface has been left to collapse into rack and ruin, is a choice that has been taken by those councils - to now turn round and blame the users for the damage caused by that lack of maintenance is both disingenuous and peverse.

[url= http://www.youtube.com/user/svengalie ]Svengalie[/url] had a lot to say about green laning, he did a lot of work mapping and fighting for their protection too.

I STRONGLY urge you all to watch his videos, from the start preferably.

They have done a similar thing with many of the routes in the Yorkshire Dales (about 5 years ago) and these routes have been so much better since then (routes like Stockdale, Long Lane (Clapham), Gorbeck, Arncliffe Cote, Mastilles and so many more) that are now even more fantastic.

This +1

Will also perhaps reduce the need for local authorities to feel they need to 'improve' the byway so it can be used by motor vehicles. Was coming down Gilbert Lane (still a byway) yesterday and the large-grade gravel dumped on it is still a nuisance.

Obviously, though, if there end up being virtually no byways open to motorised traffic, a number of 4x4ers will just start going wherever they fancy.

ChrisE's argument is just plain daft- what do you do to maintain this imagined environment? Shut the A57? What a load of nonsense. When I've not lived in Scotland I've always lived right next to the Peak boundary and out in the national park I've seen 4x4s only twice, ever. Motorbikes more regularly, but still not often. There just aren't enough of them to make a disturbance, and if it does ruin your whole day you're probably a bit of a twunt.

The thinking only as a MTB on this thread is quite sad.

Somewhere a forum for the red socks brigade is saying this about our access and supporting trail improvements/sanitisation - and we all know we all ride cheeky stuff as well.

The countryside should have facilities for all to enjoy it not just for all to enjoy it how we see fit.
How about we share access fairly with all users?

I would happily see more tracks opened to motorised vehicles assuming the surface could handle them. Reducing bottle necks and confrontations by spreading people out.

Mountain bikes have been suggesting the same argument & reasoning over opening footpaths so lets be a little less selfish and share

The Peaks are crowded? LOL!

The Peaks are crowded? LOL!

Like any National Park, depends where you go. It has its honeypot areas just like all National Parks. I tend to choose my rides (and my riding times) quite carefully to avoid any conflict, it allows me to ride more or less where I want because frankly, the state of some of the BWs here is appalling and no fun to ride.

Whatever idiot decided that dumping hundreds of thousands of tons of gravel over everything was "trail maintenance" really needs shooting.

That's why the trails are in the state they are, precisely because it IS so crowded and gets such heavy use and because the thousands of tons of gravel just washes off after 2 winters, creating huge ruts and runnels and increasing water erosion elsewhere. Restricting trail usage or banning 4x4s doesn't really work, it concentrates the problem in smaller and smaller areas. The massive irony is that walkers campaigned tirelessy for "open access" which they've now got but they all just stick to the same bloody paths! And then moan about anyone else using them.

I rode the Kinder circuit yesterday finishing at noon. Maybe most folk ride/walk in the aft as I saw only 4 riders and a french walker upto the end!

In 15 years of using the Peak I can honestly say I've never had an issue with crowding other than the kiosk at Fairhomes & that's using some pretty popular and heavily used routes.

As Hora says, a tiny amount of forethought in time and route means you can easily avoid most people.

they came for the 4*4's and i said nothing cos i wasn't a 4*4er. They came for the motorcyclists, but i said nothing cos i wasn't a motorcyclist. then they (probably walkers) came for the mtb'ers, but there was no one left to say anything....

Very soon they wont be able to afford fuel for leisure use.

This very quiet peaks where is it??????????The tractors make the same noise as anywhere else.The chainsaws are not quiet.The quarrys make alot of noise.I think someone has his head in the sand.Live in the countryside its not quiet.

For those interested in RoW cases, a very important judgement today in the High Court. One that has been waited for a long time

http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2012/2634.html&query=Tilbury&method=boolean

It should mean about 5 or 600 routes that might have had motor rights can now only realistically have horse and cart rights.

C

Danger with that is the more you ban means some people will ride anywhere.Lets face it its been done before and will be done again people will take of there number plates when they go off-roading so they become just like a mountain bikes untraceable one KTM would look like another to most people.

ChrisE - Member

For those interested in RoW cases, a very important judgement today in the High Court. One that has been waited for a long time

http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2012/2634.html&query=Tilbury&method=boolean

It should mean about 5 or 600 routes that might have had motor rights can now only realistically have horse and cart rights.

The NERC Act stopped the recording of any new Byways Open to All Traffic as was set out by the government but with a number of exemptions including one aimed at protecting applicants that had made BOAT applications in good faith, in good time before the Act.

There were a large number of BOAT applications that it was thought beat the NERC deadline but they were warned that they failed because the maps attached were deffective. Now that has been held to be true they fail. Being not-NERC-exempt any motor rights were extinguished, by statute, on 2 May 2006. They can now only become restricted byways that the most.

C

ty Chris. It seems strange that such a large number of presumably un-related applications in different parts of the country would all make the same mistake in their maps. Not saying that isn't the case, but I wonder how such a technical error could be propagated like that.

Interesting thread.
@Chris E - I have lived in the Peak Park for 20 years and don't recognise this haven of peace and tranquillity of which you speak.

There are quarries in operation, aggregate trucks travelling the roads, stone cutting works, cement production facilities, and farms with all of their associated mechanisation and noise. On top of this there are all the visitors who arrive in the assorted cars, vans, buses, motorbikes, 4x4s and MX bikes. We are on the flight path to Manchester airport so the sound of jets passing overhead is an almost endless background accompaniment to life out here. It is far from a tranquil wilderness, it is very much a working landscape.

ChrisE - can the ramblers expect such fervent blinkered support for their cause from you when they campaign to ban mountain bikes from popular bridleways?

I know of one mountain rescue member who is already arguing for seasonal access only.

Your viewpoint is both selfish and short sighted.

edit - actually, you're right. Thinking about it clearly, Roych Clough is ever so noisy. Perhaps we can work together on my next campaign ...

BAN THE PLANES LANDING AT MANCHESTER FROM FLYING OVER KINDER SCOUT!!!

+1 on the selfish and short sighted.

Could I remind everyone who is not in favor of this ban to not only voice their opinion here but more importantly email the relevant people.

you need this website....

http://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/looking-after/consultations/tro-consultation-2012

and these emails

long.causeway@peakdistrict.gov.uk
roych@peakdistrict.gov.uk

Emailed

I think it is very likely that in some years to come, [b][u]‘offroading[/u]’[/b] (as it is colloquially called) will be stopped in all National Parks and they will be set aside as a place for peaceful enjoyment, fresh air and fitness and as such to be a ‘special’ place, different to the rest of the nation’s countryside.

One assumes you're a roadie who got lost and ended up on an MTB forum then? What happens when someone decides "offroading" also covers mountain biking off road?

There were a large number of BOAT applications that it was thought beat the NERC deadline but they were warned that they failed because the maps attached were deffective. Now that has been held to be true they fail.

ChrisE, like Garry_Lager I'm still not sure how the Dorset case linked would affect any other current applications to upgrade routes to BOAT status, unless you're suggesting the TRF have used 1/50:000 mapping for [b]all[/b] their applications nationwide. If so, someone somewhere has badly screwed up.

Perhaps though, DEFRA guidance is worded incorrectly somewhere and maybe the TRF relied on just one piece of incorrect guidance?

Specifically about the case in Dorset, I understand his (and indeed OS's) argument and interpretation of [i]“to a scale of not less than 1:25,000”[/i], nevertheless it seems to me the decision takes an excessively strict interpretation of what constitutes 25k mapping (in this case a 50k OS map zoomed in so as to be effectively at 25k scale, rather than a plain extract of a 25k map).

The TRF (and others) saw the writing was on the wall so rushed to put in many, many DMMOs from 2003. The Government (then Labour, Alun Michael) had been making noises from then that they thought recreational motor vehicles on non-surfaced public rights of way were inappropriate and a bad thing for other users including walkers, cyclists and horseriders. The application procedure, set out in the WCA is simple but is strict. You’re quoting [i]“to a scale of not less than 1:25,000”[/i] is not quite right as it actually says [i]“a map drawn to the prescribed scale and showing the way or ways to which the application relates”[/i] In the regulations that scale is defined as 1:25000.

Now the TRF were very sloppy in putting in such a rush of applications. Some had just a list, no copies of evidence attached (Winchester showed they failed) and many had blown-up maps. Now those have been shown to fail too. They were arguing that a road atlas, blown up lots of times with highlighter drawn track (from A to B) would suffice as being [i]“a map drawn to the prescribed scale”[/i]

Hence the large number nation wide and presumably why the TRF sunk a huge amount of money into this. Incidentally (and not really related) but this year NERC has produced it’s first mountainbike-bridleway. A part of NERC set out a new law that means using a cycle on a track for a qualifying period would create a bridleway. Prior to NERC this was not possible. Walkers enjoyed a right to ‘create’ footpaths, horseriders a right to ‘create’ bridleways but cyclists strangely did not. We have NERC to thank for setting that right.

C

So all that case proves is that you can make up some rules and all historical evidence is rendered obsolete

It proves nothing in the way of actual evidence of disruption or discomfort that many people cite as the reason for banning or downgrading rights of way

Red tape & bureaucracy at it's best

Fair point. Whilst there's no excuse for rushing out a load applications with poorly copied maps, I still think the Dorset case (25k VS a zoomed in 50k) is a bit harsh.

For others who are interested, the [url= http://www.bbtrust.org.uk/main.html ]Byways and Bridleways Trust[/url] is a good resource.

[edit]

^ in response to ChrisE BTW, I took an hour as I forgot to press "post" 😮

Chris is right the TRF did panic and put all those applications in but was worth a try and they are only a small group seeing the rights being hammered.
Rogerthecat and Pook that is how the Peaks is to me still a great place but hardly quiet Goyt Valley and so on.
This is the problem everybody sees the countryside differently and as a race we struggle to get on!!!!!!Just look around the world these days.