[Closed] Proof that some road users go around with their eyes closed?

There's no real excuse for a council to ignore valid and important safety guidance no matter how "obvious" the results might seem.

You wouldn't build cycle lanes with barbed wire fences either side either and get all defensive on the basis that the wire was visible and therefore it was the rider's own silly fault that they veered into it.

Not everyone's a confident cyclist and if you put dangerous hazards in their environment, however obvious, there are a myriad of reasons (other than the ignorance/complacency implied by many on this thread) that people might find their way into them

[quote=ormondroyd ] there are a myriad of reasons (other than the ignorance/complacency implied by many on this thread) that people might find their way into them
Including being "forced" to overtake a bus?

Irrelevant really, but do you wait behind every stationary vehicle that blocks your path, until it moves? You must have slow average times. There'd be skeletons on bikes if everyone did that

If it's safer to hold station rather than overtake, that's what I do. YMMV.

Me too, but you have no idea if those buses she's talking about were moving on or not. As I say, it's not really relevant to the wider point. If there have been 80 accidents before the trams have even started, then there's something forseeably wrong with the layout, in my view, enough that the council's duty of care is the main point, not the abilities or decisions of individual riders.

why does Edinburger even need a tram?

Nothing to do with the OP but this made me laugh.

http://edinburghtrambles.blogspot.co.uk/

I got caught out by the tram tracks a few years back. I was quite drunk at the time. Can I sue?

Looking at those pics, it would only take a pedestrian stepping off the kerb and you'll be straight into the track.

Was this pedestrian hiding behind a passing leaf or something?
🙄

what worries me, and I've seen it all-too-often, is the proximity with which buses tail a cyclist if they can't over take. Talking 1 bike's length behind the often-shuggly-and-not-confident cyclist. Now, if said cyclist WAS to stray into the tram lines (or pot hole, or stray pedestrian etc) what are the chances of that bus stopping without bulldozing the cyclist? Would like to get this kind of tailing filmed on my phone some time and ask Lothian Buses about that one.

Interesting to see what happens next then:

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-20469154 ]Princes Street to open to all traffic[/url]

Do I have to break anything to win a few grand or will bruising do?

[quote=jimmy ]what worries me, and I've seen it all-too-often, is the proximity with which buses tail a cyclist if they can't over take. Talking 1 bike's length behind the often-shuggly-and-not-confident cyclist. Now, if said cyclist WAS to stray into the tram lines (or pot hole, or stray pedestrian etc) what are the chances of that bus stopping without bulldozing the cyclist? Would like to get this kind of tailing filmed on my phone some time and ask Lothian Buses about that one.
I'm pretty sure LB buses are fitted with external CCTV, so if you took a note of the route and number they'd be able to look it up for you. They have a reputation of being pretty stringent in training drivers how to deal with cyclists.

+1 for Lothian buses. They are by far and away the best company when it comes to having respect for people on bikes.

I think the point that a lot on here seem to be missing is that the roads should be safe enough for your granny to nash down the shop for a loaf on her pashley with wicker basket. The fact that a lot on here shred the gnarr down Princes street is really irrelevant as if the road has been badly designed to the detriment of road users then someone will pay (the council)

it would only take a pedestrian stepping off the kerb and you'll be straight into the track.

+1 This was a daily occurrence when I used to cycle down a tram route and it was only a 200metre section. You try doing a bunny hop over the line when someone wearing headphones steps straight into your path. It's all good in theory but in the real world you will be taken by surprise, it will be dark and the tram lines wet and you'll be on a road bike with skinny tyres, your weight over the front because you have drop bars and you'll be emergency braking. A colleague went over the bars broke his scapula and held up the trams for an hour whilst the ambulance extracted him. I don't think he got any compensation.

I wish I could sue the reactionary Daily Mail idiots that pepper this forum...

Stop behaving like cyclists are riding on the roads as some sort of cap doffing victims. YOU OWN THE ROADS TOO.

“Local cycle campaigners had repeatedly voiced concerns about the hazards of Edinburgh’s tram scheme."

"The council has not acted on safety recommendations such as a two-way cycle lane, or improved lighting and signage to warn cyclists of danger."

"this legal challenge isn’t just about cyclists and tram lines. It is about the duties of highway authorities to take proper account of cyclists’ safety, whatever they are designing."

And finally:
"It’s a priority to improve safety right across the city and the council’s coalition agreement commitment to invest 5 per cent of the transport budget on provision for cyclists will help achieve this."
Edinburgh is going to have have some freekin' cycling network if the council spend 5% of the £776m that's being spent on trams. Oh, I see, you don't mean 5% of that budget...

From this

[img] [/img]

to this...

[img] [/img]
[img] [/img]

Plenty of room between the nearside rail and the next lane - even more at the traffic island.

This was a bit more worrying though...

[img] https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-lwLiFbfsKf8/ULY1PSOC_iI/AAAAAAAABN0/sUGxvWKmNT4/s1473/IMAG0223.jp g" target="_blank">https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-lwLiFbfsKf8/ULY1PSOC_iI/AAAAAAAABN0/sUGxvWKmNT4/s1473/IMAG0223.jp g"/> [/img]

That's a bad angle to be crossing those rails at.

[img] [/img]
Plenty of room between the nearside rail and the next lane

Really?

Look at where the blue corsa in the background is. Look s like handlebar scraping territory to me.

Really. The gap between the rail and the nearside lane is about the same width as most cycletracks.

ormondroyd - Member

Cycling on streets should be safe for everyone, even the inexperienced.

Good luck with that plan.

Haha, i was just thinking i should go take pics druidh!

The width is easily 1 meter, so roughly the width of any cycle lane.

As for the tracks turning, thats a bit more of a problem! Was thinking that about coming down lothian road, and having to cross the tracks before turning onto shandwick place/princess street.

druidh - Member

Really. The gap between the rail and the nearside lane is about the same width as most cycletracks.

It may be but I'd say it's too narrow for many - you need more width when there's undertaking cars to the left rather than a kerb.

So that gap is 1m wide, so a cyclist will ride pretty much in the middle of it and his/her elbow will be above the line between the tram lane and the traffic lane to the left. Exactly as per the photo above.

Then a car/van/bus/lorry comes along and can't leave a safe amount of space.

Part of that is that the 1m is split into two sections by that rubbish join. So the 1m wide 'lane' is actually 2 lanes, one 40cm wide with a slippery track at the edge of it, and the other is 60cm wide with a lane of traffic passing within a foot of your elbow.

I'd probably bunny hop it and ride down the middle of the two rails. Not very good for granny on her town bike though...

cynic-al - Memberyou need more width when there's undertaking cars to the left rather than a kerb.

Alternatively, if you can't cycle along a 1 metre wide lane between a rail and a car, you might consider whether you should be allowed on two wheels at all.

The thing is, it's not as easy to avoid lines as druidh makes out.

I live in Sheffield and on my old commute you HAD to cross the lines twice. No way around it, at all- if you wanted to cross one street you would have to take a 7 mile detour. This is after having ridden in a 2 foot wide gap with traffic and trams squeezing by.

I have crashed on the lines that you have to cross, I hit a car and caused damage and cracked my frame, bent my bars, trashed an STi and bent my rear wheel. I'm an experienced rider and had slowed down significantly for them but the angle you hit them on a wet day means that you're risking sliding into the groove regardless of how good you are.

No one is immune from this, but inexperienced riders wobbling all over the edge of the road aren't stupid for falling into them. I'd say 90% of cyclists don't realise that they are at particular risk of sliding on metal. It sounds stupid to you, but it's not obvious. A drain cover poses no threat at all when you're walking or in a car and if you've been cycling 6 months with no cycling mates to explain things to you then you aren't going to leap to that conclusion.

what worries me, and I've seen it all-too-often, is the proximity with which buses tail a cyclist if they can't over take. Talking 1 bike's length behind the often-shuggly-and-not-confident cyclist. Now, if said cyclist WAS to stray into the tram lines (or pot hole, or stray pedestrian etc) what are the chances of that bus stopping without bulldozing the cyclist? Would like to get this kind of tailing filmed on my phone some time and ask Lothian Buses about that one.

Yeah I see this a lot too and it makes me cringe every time, just takes one slipped gear or pedal slip and it is under the bus we go. By and large LRT drivers are superb around cyclists and I wish taxis and First bus would follow their lead (and all other drivers for that point).

druidh - Member
Alternatively, if you can't cycle along a 1 metre wide lane between a rail and a car, you might consider whether you should be allowed on two wheels at all.

So 10-25cm either side of your hands is safe, when riding between a rail and a car or 2 cars?

You might want to consider whether you should post on the internet.

Alternatively, here's a pic about how much space there should be around bikes, that I think you've posted on/supported previously?

[img] [/img]