[Closed] Professional road cyclists and lack of self preservation - TdF spoiler content

Yeah, they should ride around in Sumo Suits or just settle on pushing bikes around instead of riding them.

Cyclings terribly dangerous, it ought to be banned.

Spoiler!

Where was my spoiler alert? I'm guessing that's not something that you get up from.

BTW please don't answer that!

Try being a jump jockey.
Modern life is so risk averse, sports has danger attached to it. Managed obvs. Unless you're a free climber.

Some riders can take 3 minutes off you on a mountain climb but then lose it on the descent.

Some riders have better handling skills than others.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/pinot-to-drive-racing-car-to-improve-descending/

Ffs

Ooo, you'll have upset a fair few people with this thread.

ball..sorry guys...

Can someone flag to the mods to add a spolier in the title..

Who was it that was gonna chuck it cos he was so scared of the descents? Pinot?.

Aye, jockeys are hardy buggers. Saw the video ruby Walsh did recent when a guy on Twitter accused him of taking a tumble? Well worth a watch, took him on a cattle truck across a field at 40 odd mph and told him to jump off, see how he got on.....

I've got the answer..

No, I [b]really[/b] have the answer..

2 options:
A) make the riders use disc brakes, because as every commuter knows "they rock"
B) have the climb part of the stage, then every rider either jump on the team bus or take the uplift (thier choice) then neutralise the stage whilst everyone soft peddles until the last 3k.

Fixed.

I should work for the UCI me.

Oh, and really, a spoiler? If anyone wanting to see the highlights later, then they really should avoid a thread titled as such, common sense.

Pinot?

Pinot?

Simple really, there's enough utter psychos around that if you want to win you have to take brain out and follow at some point.

Even on local weekly training APR's, some of the risks i see being taken are to me insane - bikes leant over at 35+ mph on broken horrible surfaces.

I rather let the wheel go and catch back on even if it means burning a few matches

Many riders including Porte rode the descent as part of La Dauphine and would have recc'd many of the key stages. Thankfully there have only been 3 deaths in major races since 1995 - Casartelli, Kivilev and Weylandt. Whilst there were some damp patches due to previous rain, it wasn't that dangerous in comparison to some conditions - it's a risk all riders knowingly take

Not convinced it's the most dangerous by a long way. Plenty of people in certain 'extreme sports' that have broken more bones than they can probably count. And I don't think all cyclists break a bone every season - Unless you're Geraint Thomas: in which case you do it every race.

I think it's one of those things. You start out. Risk has nothing to do with it. Then the risks come...so you blank them out. If you don't blank them out, then you quit, and sit at home talking about it on the internet, like us 😀

bookmarking this for a read after I've watched today's highlights.

Here's a goodun from a couple of years ago

I'd imagine it's the Will to win, you end up pushing that little envelope a bit too hard sometimes and it bites you in the ass.

Even though Pinot is a bit bobbins at descending - within the pro ranks he'd probably show an awful lot of weekend warriors a clean pair of carbon soled disco slippers while road descending. Likewise Cav is "rubbish" at climbing.....

I would say they take a calculated risk: It's a win-at-all-cost attitude. Sometimes it doesn't go well, sometimes it does.

I think by insinuating a "lack of self preservation" you are underestimating their bike skills: They know how to ride a bike fast, and use it. We all do it, it's just that their skills allow them to go faster than many, with an inevitable increase in consequences.

Do you feel like you have no sense of self-preservation every time you get in your car, or get on your bike?

I came back from a serious crash (in training; fifteen fractures) to keep keep racing. I was never a gifted descender but now I'm worse! I had two loss of consciousness crashes last season too. Neither were my fault. You accept the risks every time you sign on.

Being in the race helps you switch off from concentrating on the risks. G seems to just be unlucky. A lot.

seemed to me that they tried to pick a pretty "wide and flat road" route on the early stages to try and reduce the early doors carnage of previous tours, hasn't really worked out for them riders are dropping like flys, hospital bed shot on twitter is become positively de rigueur

Early on in the stage they were shocked to see Vockler dropped on the descents, as if he just wasn't up for playing in the damp. Watching it had a feel that something was going to go wrong, the FDJ push made everyone try and stay on there. It only takes a fraction more to lift one or two of the guys out of comfort and skill sets.

On this one Dan Martin's comment that "The organisers got what they wanted"

On this one Dan Martin's comment that "The organisers got what they wanted"

Boardman reckoned that the descents were within normal boundaries of danger for a pro and that they could control their own speed. Look at Bardet getting from Froome, Froome just wasn't prepared to push the envelope as much.

And I'd say everyone is entitled to an optinon, I'll take the ones from the guy in the middle of it yesterday.
http://www.sbs.com.au/cyclingcentral/video/989360195651/TDF-2017-Porte-crash-reactions
You can listen to his comments of the geo stuff works for this.

Meh. The "guy in the middle of it" has a DS who said Porte made a mistake and the descent wasn't too bad (although both Martin and Holm clearly need to be reminded to check brakes after getting a neutral wheel so perhaps neither are to be believed). Obviously the guys who crashed complain and the guys who don't crash don't complain. Bardet nailed it, Froome was fast and the rest were on the ragged edge trying to keep up which I think was the main problem.

There's 2 different things here, Porte/yesterdays stage and descending in general.

From my perspective, I think Boardman has it right, it was a tough descent but riders have the choice of how hard to push. Bardet is a fine descender and rode away, Froome is now pretty good too and rode fast enough to keep everyone on their toes but seemed in control, as did Uran. Porte is not as good at all, his crash was caused by a mistake he made, it was nasty but I'd suggest it was his decision to push that hard. You have to remember that GC is to the best overall rider, not the best climber or the best TTer, the best overall and descending is part of that.

I'm not sure that a fast descent near the end of a very tough mountain stage is particularly sensible.

it was a tough descent but riders have the choice of how hard to push. Bardet is a fine descender and rode away, Froome is now pretty good too and rode fast enough to keep everyone on their toes but seemed in control, as did Uran. Porte is not as good at all, his crash was caused by a mistake he made, it was nasty but I'd suggest it was his decision to push that hard.

The significant gap Froome made on a descent last year is likely to be playing on the minds of some of the other GC competitors who might normally not be pushing so hard on a damp twisty descent.

I'm not sure that a fast descent near the end of a very tough mountain stage is particularly sensible.

I don't entirely agree. It's their job to decide how fast to ride, uphill you have to make sure you don't blow up, downhill you have to make sure you don't crash. There is skill to both in knowing how hard to push yourself.

I don't entirely agree. It's their job to decide how fast to ride, uphill you have to make sure you don't blow up, downhill you have to make sure you don't crash. There is skill to both in knowing how hard to push yourself.

Riders are always going to push themselves to the limit, it goes with the job, so it's always the case that the tiniest miscalculation can result in a very nasty accident. The arguments saying that it is down to the riders seem reminiscent of motor racing in the 1960s.

The arguments saying that it is down to the riders seem reminiscent of motor racing in the 1960s.

The problem is, its hard to have mountain stages without descents. The nature of pro cycling is they cover vast distances where it's impossible to make every single part of it safe, unlike in motor racing. Even if you were to remove the descent and turn the Mont du Chat into a summit finish (hard, there's not much room up there), you'd still have had a plethora of crashes earlier in the stage that you couldn't do much about. The ONLY person who crashed on this descent (we'll ignore Martin's second crash as it was related to the first which wasn't his fault) was Porte as far as I can tell. Around 180-190 riders got down safely.

I predicted there would be a big stack on that descent, and I predicted it would be either Porte or Froome. Anyone who watched the Dauphine saw how those 2 basically used that descent to stamp their authority on the Tour, weeks before it started.

They both pushed it to the absolute limit and took risks in a bid to unsettle the other rider, but I suspect Porte got found out: he's not as skilled a descender and he's not as cool in temperament.

Horrible crash, and it brought back horrible memories for me, lying in a similar fetal position on the tarmac waiting for the ambulance to come and scrape me up a couple of years back. But it's part and parcel of bike racing. You can't sanitise it - if you try and find safer roads, people will just push harder to find the limit there.

Boardman nailed it - part of the game. Porte ran out of ability on that descent. Hope he's ok.

FWIW 14 or so drivers died in F1 cars in the 1960's, so I'd say the situation here is very different. Yes, the riders are expected to decide for themselves what to do, but the risk of serious injury or death is much lower.

That descent was incredibly scary to watch at the speeds riders were going, on a freshly tarmacked surface, that was damp from earlier rain. Chris Boardman rode earlier in the day and was concerned about what may happen in the race.

Just like in last year's Olympic road race (where leader in women race wiped out on the flood gutters), I have to question why there isn't more safety measures in place to reduce the risk to riders.

Chris Boardman rode earlier in the day and was concerned about what may happen in the race.

However, he also said it wasn't particularly any more dangerous than any other big mountain descent in terms of how a pro-cyclist thinks.

The problem is, its hard to have mountain stages without descents.

I think by insinuating a "lack of self preservation" you are underestimating their bike skills: They know how to ride a bike fast, and use it. We all do it, it's just that their skills allow them to go faster than many, with an inevitable increase in consequences.

Do you feel like you have no sense of self-preservation every time you get in your car, or get on your bike?

I think this is a big part of it. Many people might think things an experienced cyclist did were nuts, and yet they would have far more accidents than the experienced cyclist.

That said, whilst road cycling as a leisure pursuit is quite low risk and gentle, racing at any level is far from risk free, even just bunch incidents etc - at least in a descent the groups usually thin out a bit. If you race you'll see people crashing and breaking bones. It's not nice, but it's part of the sport if you race.

The TdF isn't short of mountain top finishes.

Yes but even stages with mountain top finishes will generally have a couple of big categorised climbs before the final climb, unless the organisers plan on busing them down to the bottom of the next climb then descending will remain part of racing.

It was an odd stage, I don't think the pedestrian pace sky used on the col de biche help matters made everything more frantic towards the end. Also bikes are getting quicker and more aero (along with the clothing). It always seems to be the wooded descents that cause the most issues bad sight lines, damp spots and less perceived risk.

Yes but even stages with mountain top finishes will generally have a couple of big categorised climbs before the final climb, unless the organisers plan on busing them down to the bottom of the next climb then descending will remain part of racing.

Well that was my point really. Having an extra descent near the finish when the riders are knackered and racing for position is different I think to descents earlier in the stage. That combined with a damp road doesn't make it unforeseeable that there are going to be problems.

I've done 55kph into the back of a stationary Audi estate...I can confirm that it hurt...a lot.

It's hard to race in the mountains without the threat/possibility of rain.

This all seems a bit knee jerk really. Sure, it's dangerous, it always has been, going at 70km/h on a skinny tyre round fast bends is always going to be dangerous... .but i'm not sure what the issue is.

Is anyone seeing massive complaints from the riders ?

It's hard to race in the mountains without the threat/possibility of rain.

Precisely, which is why the organisers should take it into account when deciding on the route.

This all seems a bit knee jerk really. Sure, it's dangerous, it always has been, going at 70km/h on a skinny tyre round fast bends is always going to be dangerous... .but i'm not sure what the issue is.

The arguments saying that it is down to the riders seem reminiscent of motor racing in the 1960s.

Last summer I watched the end of a pro race in the pyrenees. We starter to decend off the mountain just as a lot of the pro riders were riding down too. (team vans etc were down at the bottom of the hill)

They didnt like the fact we were over taking them so they started going quicker than us. Basically we all ended up going bonkers quick down, over taking cars etc. There wasnt one of them wanting to go slower just because its fun going quick !

That decent yesterday looked fun, you win some you loose some.

I would suggest that Op isnt made of the same stuff as a professional sports person, in fact did OP convert from golf to cycling? 😆

I don't see that the history of danger is a reason to say that no change is required.

What and take out any decent, or roundabout come to that!?!?!

Precisely, which is why the organisers should take it into account when deciding on the route.

So you want the TDF to be a Crit series and not take in any mountains ?

May as well just give the Yellow jersey to Sagan then 🙂

They didnt like the fact we were over taking them so they started going quicker than us. Basically we all ended up going bonkers quick down, over taking cars etc. There wasnt one of them wanting to go slower just because its fun going quick !

Cool story.

What and take out any decent, or roundabout come to that!?!?!

Yeah, that's what I said. 🙄

ransos - Member
Having an extra descent near the finish when the riders are knackered

they're not knackered

So you want the TDF to be a Crit series and not take in any mountains ?

Yeah, when I said "Having an extra descent near the finish when the riders are knackered and racing for position is different I think to descents earlier in the stage." what I meant was "take out all the mountains"

Any chance of quitting the stupid strawmen?

they're not knackered

Simon Yates disagrees with you.

Yeah, when I said "Having an extra descent near the finish when the riders are knackered and racing for position is different I think to descents earlier in the stage." what I meant was "take out all the mountains"

Any chance of quitting the stupid strawmen?

You're not being clear though, so your answers are open to interpretation. So what do you actually want ? Them only to put decents early on in the ride ? Won't they just go faster then as they're fresher ? More mountain top stage finishes ? Which will mean less chance for someone like Uran to win it as he's never going to match the fast climbers when they're fully on it for the win, it also means that someone like Froome is more nailed on for the win in the Tour as he's going to just use the team Sky train to drag him to the win on the other stages that need a long flat finish.

They're supposed to be tired, it's supposed to be hard, it's supposed to be risky, it's a race, winning is about being better than everyone else. Sprinting is risky, downhill is risky, that's what makes it exciting !

The course designers did take into account the descent could be challenging which is why they moved the finish line further from the bottom than it was in the Douphene, to remove some of the need to go all out on the descent.

There are plenty of stupid crashes at the end of flat stages when the riders are knackered and racing for position.

If you really want to improve safety, get rid of the sprints as well the mountain descents.

You're not being clear though, so your answers are open to interpretation.

I was trying to have a nuanced discussion, and you chose to misrepresent my position by advancing an opinion that bore no relation to anything I said. If you were at all unclear then you could've asked for a clarification rather than create a strawman.

They're supposed to be tired, it's supposed to be hard, it's supposed to be risky, it's a race, winning is about being better than everyone else. Sprinting is risky, downhill is risky, that's what makes it exciting !

I wonder if anyone has actually considered the number of deaths and serious injuries in UCI sanctioned races over the last 10 years. Previous posted mentioned the 3 deaths I was aware of, but I can think of a lot of other seriousus injuries, including that poor woman in the Giro Rosa last week.

I love professional cycling and have watched for 30 years, but since van Vleuten's crash at the Olympics I'm starting to struggle with the risk side of it - don't really want to see someone die on TV so tend to avoid the live coverage of some stages/races. What a wimp!

If you really want to improve safety, get rid of the sprints as well the mountain descents.

The response to the Sagan/ Cavendish incident showed that the organisers are trying to address safety in the sprint. Whether the punishment was correct is a separate discussion!

"Having an extra descent near the finish when the riders are knackered and racing for position is different I think to descents earlier in the stage."

The thing is it's decided partially by geography and partially by who is willing to pay for a finish. There are only so many HC climbs in France that are suitable for the race to pass through and not all of those responsible for the mountain top areas will be prepared to pay for the Tour to finish there.

So if you want a mountain top finish yesterday for example, you'd have to stop the stage at the Grand Colombier (assuming the road up and gravel carpark are suitable for the convoy of trucks etc). Then it comes down to whether there's anyone willing to stump up the cash for the area to have the race finish there. By this time, however, the stage is too short so the race would either have to start somewhere else (need a new start town) or finish somewhere else entirely (perhaps no mountain finish). It's a big set of compromises.

on a road they knew would be slippery in the wet, didn't get that balance right

All roads are slippery in the wet, but they couldn't predict the forecast for July 2017 when they planned it in 2016 ! They can't just not have stages in the mountains because it may rain. Hell, they may as well cancel the Giro along with all the Spring Classics if we're using "oh well if it rains it's going to be slippery" reasoning.

All roads are slippery in the wet, but they couldn't predict the forecast for July 2017 when they planned it in 2016 ! They can't just not have stages in the mountains because it may rain. Hell, they may as well cancel the Giro along with all the Spring Classics if we're using "oh well if it rains it's going to be slippery" reasoning.

They had new tarmac laid for the TdF, which is more slippery in the wet than a worn-in road surface - something noted by Chris Boardman. The road is also heavily shaded by trees, which made it worse - something the riders noted. These factors were known in advance and have nothing to do with the weather forecast, which again is not an argument I have made.

They had new tarmac laid for the TdF, which is more slippery in the wet than a worn-in road surface - something noted by Chris Boardman. The road is also heavily shaded by trees, which made it worse - something the riders noted. These factors were known in advance and have nothing to do with the weather forecast, which again is not an argument I have made.

I'm going to dip out now as i think you've lost the plot to be honest... i'm honestly lost as to what your actual point is, so you crack on...

The TdF isn't short of mountain top finishes.

It is this year 😆

There's a big difference between removing movable road furniture, putting out crash bales, and totally avoiding certain descents. So long as a route has been made as safe as possible then sureely it comes down to rider discretion as to the speed they wish to push it.

I expect the number of deaths in cycling is miniscule in comparison to something like motorsport. I think the accessibility and hype from the media are making some hyper-sensitive - if you took the same number of people simply going about their daily lives, there would still be a number of fatalities regardless e.g. the number of pedestrians killed by traffic - do we ban traffic? One of the joys of road cycling in the mountains is the pure exhilaration of descending and to go fast you need the psychological approach of a downhill skier, balanced on the edge of control.

I'm going to dip out now as i think you've lost the plot to be honest... i'm honestly lost as to what your actual point is, so you crack on...

I thought it was pretty obvious, but never mind.

It is this year

There's a big difference between removing movable road furniture, putting out crash bales, and totally avoiding certain descents. So long as a route has been made as safe as possible then sureely it comes down to rider discretion as to the speed they wish to push it.

The issue I think is that pro riders take risks to win. They push their limits. When they do this on a climb they hit the wall, crack and go backwards. Worst case is they loose time. When they push too hard on a decent they crash and often end up in hospital. Its all about the risk's the rider is prepared to take.

The course designers did take into account the descent could be challenging which is why they moved the finish line further from the bottom than it was in the Douphene, to remove some of the need to go all out on the descent.

that has no effect/the opposite effect as you still have to gap any chasing group because they'll team up and chase you down on the flat as shown yesterday.

that has no effect/the opposite effect as you still have to gap any chasing group because they'll team up and chase you down on the flat as shown yesterday.

they have "neutralized" descents in the past, IIRC was there the schleck brothers weren't happy about they all went down that very sedately.

[url= http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/racing/tour-de-france/are-the-tour-de-frances-descents-too-risky-50000 ]moaning in 2011 [/url](the one where Voeckler ended up in someones drive) I think it may have been the next years race where it was "neutralized" as I remember it being wet.

I would suggest that Op isnt made of the same stuff as a professional sports person, in fact did OP convert from golf to cycling?

You do know that golf is a professional sport right?

Last summer I watched the end of a pro race in the pyrenees. We starter to decend off the mountain just as a lot of the pro riders were riding down too. (team vans etc were down at the bottom of the hill)

They didnt like the fact we were over taking them so they started going quicker than us. Basically we all ended up going bonkers quick down, over taking cars etc. There wasnt one of them wanting to go slower just because its fun going quick !

Cool story indeed.. Although I'm willing to bet in reality your perception is far from the one of the racers who probably thought 'knobber' as they leisurely bimbled down the hill.

Besides.. This 'ex golfer' overtook none other than the great Tony Martin on the final decent of last years penultimate tour stage. (the organisers had opened the road before he'd finished due to a mechanical). And no.. He wasn't trying.. Not even remotely..

Has everyone forgotten stage 1?Pan flat road with only a couple of corners and no other riders around and Valverde still managed to wipe himself out of the tour with less than 10 Kms of riding under his belt.
Point is, riders are competitive and (some) will push the envelope irrespective of how dumbed down/easy the course is....