How many bought a Yeti because of Rude or because well, they’re a Yeti..
Santa Cruz seem to be nowhere in EWS/EDR but they still fly out of shops.
Lappierre do well in EWS/EDR however you don’t see a lot out on the trails do you.
Marketing is far more nuanced than that. Personally I think having a top level race team validates a bike. I believe that was YT's reasoning for bringing Gwin in when they hadn't previously had a WC team.
Santa Cruz don't have an EDR team but they have arguably the most high profile DH team and are very present at amateur enduro events. They did used to have an EWS team of Mark Scott and Iago who are very savvy at getting media coverage even though they aren't top 5 riders.
Yeti don't have a DH bike so makes sense they've focussed on enduro. I see no other Yeti marketing and can't think of anyone else they sponsor, so clearly works.
Lapierre have an entirely French team, and are very popular in France. Used to see lots of them here but I think the 'snapierre' reputation ended that.
I didn’t realise they even had a team
They won two of the seven rounds (although Luke MS is on the DH team and only did 2 enduros)... this to me proves how irrelevant enduro becomes when they run it the same time as DH and how poor the organisers are at covering and promoting the events.
Canyon as a company are big into racing - with top road teams, DH riders, enduro-ists and probably gravelers on their books.
This certainly gives them a credibility that they wouldn't otherwise have as a D2C brand IMO.
And even more than seeing Troy, Tahnee or Jesse on their bikes, I'd be pretty confident that Fabien Barel wouldn't let them get away with putting out a sub-standard bike.
I've never bought a bike based on who is riding that brand. I don't even know the names of any recent Ibis riders. Robin Wallner was the only name that's rode for Ibis that I know. Sure, you can see that some brands gain traction based on who is riding. When I was starting out, Commencal had the Athertons everywhere.
I've not watched much this year, mainly due to not going looking for it, but also it seems that coverage wasn't popping up in front of me. I still prefer Enduro over DH, simply like others have said, it's closest to the format that most of us ride.
Santa Cruz don’t have an EDR team
I hadn't really thought about it until you just said it. They don't do they...weird
See i’m not as convinced. How many bought a Yeti because of Rude or because well, they’re a Yeti..
Well I bet they sell more of them regardless.
I think race pedigree is important. How many people have bought WRX because they were champion rally cars 20(?) years ago?
Funny enough I can buy Richie’s old bikes from Jared Graves on FB, Jack Moir sells his and so does Dean Lucas.
Yeti don’t have a DH bike so makes sense they’ve focussed on enduro.
Didn't Richie ride one at an event recently?
how about a mass start, multi-lap race that ascends the mountain then comes down the dh track?
That would finally let us see the variety of theoretical lines on the DH course as people are using them to overtake!
Let's wait for ESO/Discovery to get enduro and DH right before we give them more disciplines to stuff up, eh?
That would finally let us see the variety of theoretical lines on the DH course as people are using them to overtake!
Poor Ben Cathro would have a melt down.
Santa Cruz quietly dropped iago and mark Scott. Think mark is still on them via a shop sponsor?
Think mark is still on them via a shop sponsor?
He's not showing as a Santa Cruz rider at EDR level this year but riding for them at UK level races
Santa Cruz might not have an Enduro team but they are available to buy and look at in lots of shops. If you want exposure as a brand and you don't have any physical presence in bike shops then you need something like a Enduro or DH team.
I think YT are a good example as they've stopped have a big race team and I've seen fewer adverts for them and I definitely see fewer YT's on the trail than I did a few years ago.
Iago Garay went to Cannondale, Mark Scott is still on Santa Cruz as a free agent, which I think was what Iago was on.
Santa Cruz
YT have Jack Moir, Christian Textor and Kasper Woolley, so a decent team set up..
I didn't buy my bike based on the team performance, but probably pay more attention to the team as a result of buying the bike. If that makes sense?
I think YT are a good example as they’ve stopped have a big race team and I’ve seen fewer adverts for them and I definitely see fewer YT’s on the trail than I did a few years ago.
Interesting example, and there may be something in that.
But I also have a perception that they have really long model lifespans, and their frames usually seem a bit behind the curve in geometry.
Whereas SC seem to be bringing out new models with little tweaks to keep them current all the time.
I think YT are a good example as they’ve stopped have a big race team and I’ve seen fewer adverts for them and I definitely see fewer YT’s on the trail than I did a few years ago
Early (and pre Brexit) YT were mindblowing value so are a bit of an anomaly. I bought a Tues and it worked out about half the cost of the comparable bike from bought via a shop. I agree the range is looking a bit dated now.
Their enduro team is an interesting model where the riders pick their own components. It'll be interesting to see if they stick with this going forwards. I had hoped we'd see some unusual brands popping up but their builds have all been a bit boring. I believe YT are going big with their DH team next year too.
I think Jack Moir said on the Downtime podcast that he mainly ran the components he was used to previously as that meant one less new variable to get used to as well as a new bike and team. But he was open to more experimentation once he was use to the bike
BoardinBob
Full MemberNo big deal closing the track on a random Sunday to get someone off the hill slowly but that’s not happening on a race day
It does, like Weeksy I've seen it. Because...
BoardinBob
Full MemberBecause at a race, the only way to get them to the utility gondola or down to the puggy line would be to effectively halt the race completely as any medics etc would have to walk up or down the track and anyone on a stretcher would have to be carried up or down the track
It seems a bit like you haven't seen them winch people in and out on the gondola? This post, it feels like you're thinking they have to get you to the top station. It's still disruptive of course but then so is any big crash.
Their enduro team is an interesting model where the riders pick their own components. It’ll be interesting to see if they stick with this going forwards. I had hoped we’d see some unusual brands popping up but their builds have all been a bit boring.
Let’s see if that changes or if it’s a you can have anything you like as long as we sell it on our bikes.
I think Jack Moir said on the Downtime podcast that he mainly ran the components he was used to previously as that meant one less new variable to get used to as well as a new bike and team. But he was open to more experimentation once he was use to the bike
He also said he liked the stuff he was used to and isn't one to obsess over details that won't necessarily make a huge difference to his race times.
Okay quick question, what does EDR actually stand for? Is it an actual acronym or just some TV schedule friendly event name shortening going on like XCC and XCO?
Is it not just Enduro with the n, u and o removed?
A bit like CVNDSH.
What's happening to all these missing vowels?
Are they being sold on the blk mrkt?
Canyon CLLCTV lost their vowels ages ago - poor buggers 🙁
Right, so safe to say it's just meaningless shite that's trying to be a thing. Gotcha.
Ultimately, there has to be compromise between commercial realities, rider and viewer enjoyment. Hopefully that works out.
No there doesn't ... not really, they only have to put up with this if they want to play the UCI game ... same with DH riders and teams just need to just leave UCI en-masse and go back to real racing.
A bit harder for the factory teams with road bikes as doubtless the UCI will seek to punish them but better for the riders and the sport than staying with the UCI
just need to just leave UCI en-masse
seems so straightforward when you write it out like that, eh? 🙄
DH riders and teams just need to just leave UCI en-masse and go back to real racing.
Explain how this works then... which events ? Who's running them ? how are they organised ? We're talking MASSIVE events here not a local DH race (which is hard enough on it's own to organise), with hundreds of competitors, teams, wagons, pits, hotels, viewers etc, then TV/broadcasting, it's a massive massive undertaking.
All you have to do is look at the quality of events like the Crankworx DH series, the footage, organisation, tracks... and that's with all the background expertise they already have...
The answer IS the UCI and Discovery, long term... just not quite there yet. But really apart from losing Warner, i don't see what's worse this season than the last 10... It's got better coverage for juniors, it's got more people racing than ever.. it's a win... Sure the semi-thing isn't quite working for many.
it’s a massive massive undertaking.
No, no, they just need to just leave, wasn't @stevextc clear?
i don’t see what’s worse this season than the last 10…
Answer there came; It's all changed, everything has changed, I wasn't asked, and I don't like it. Also Something something Warner, course makers. race cancelled - that I wouldn't have watched anyway becasue I'm NoT PaYinG etc etc into infinity...
The cancellation of that DH race was somewhat bizarre, unless you accept the fact it was for safety as they couldn't get the ambulance/etc sorted.. Then maybe i'll give them that... but i guess the biggest issue for us as public and the riders is the lack of communication. Riders turning up to find they're pitted miles away, riders missing sign-on because it was changed, riders not having enough points due to the rules (maybe) not being clear... That's all down to internal comms and organisation.
None of that though has affected what the viewers have seen. Sure there seems to be issues with GCN+ feeds and the lack of options in US and other countries, but as we're in a very UK centric forum, for me anyway the Discovery+ app on Sky has been brilliant, clear options, instant viewing, no spoilers etc etc.
Of course all of this is DH specific, not EDR/EWS, but i'm not sure the coverage of that is any worse... but sadly it's also not any better.
Nickc
seems so straightforward when you write it out like that, eh?
But it is simple .. the only complication really being factory teams that do road racing and the tours.
They just need a decent number of riders and teams who don't give a toss about the UCI as they don't make road bikes establish a "real world DH cup" and "real world Enduro series" and cut out the cancer that is the UCI.
The sponsors will follow the racers... they just need an event organiser with global reach...
As someone said on PB in a thread I read ages ago (sic)
What do the UCI actually do? Phone a resort, ask how much they will pay the UCI to host an event there and then say "we'll consider you if you're successful you'll be hearing from our event organisers".
They just need a decent number of riders and teams who don’t give a toss about the UCI
So that's every rider and national body in every cycling sport* that might want to have a tilt at an Olympic medal at some point off that list, becasue when you say, What's the UCI for? One of the answers is - It's the organisation that the IOC recognise as the governing body.
*BMX (street/freestyle and race), Road riding, Time Trailing, Track cycling, XC MTB.
There is no reason the teams can't just leave. Just say they are no longer pursuing professional WC downhill. At least two teams have just done so. YT dropped out a few years ago (to focus on freeride/slope, and content creation) and there have been a few others.
There are factory teams/teams heavily linked to a brand that chose what disciplines to compete in. Some do just road and XC for example (BMC?). Others will just do the gravity disciplines like Intense (I think, despite producing an XC bike). Some will just pick one, like Yeti doing enduro.
Likewise, there appears to be nothing to stop riders or teams doing other non UCI events if they choose. The IXS cup runs over the summer in Europe (all the top - full time pro - antipodean and north americans seem to spend most of the summer over here anyway),and as Tracey Hannah always did them while also racing WC's, the entry list is not restricted to europeans. Crankworx DH also sees a small selection of top DH riders enter, at least their geographic closest one, and likewise they don't seem to be punished. Hardline (finals cancelled due to weather) had top riders there - despite being run by redbull, the former WC broadcaster.
nickc
So that’s every rider and national body in every cycling sport* that might want to have a tilt at an Olympic medal at some point
You say that like the Olympics is a definitively good thing for anyone outside the gravy train?
There are a lot of ways to look at this but we can separate them for the sake of discussion and perhaps what "good for the sport" and similar things mean ??
In many ways it is the pinnacle of an entire structure that TODAY principally exists to give salaries to people involved in admin rather than support athletes and sports.
Financial - I'm not saying that should be the be all and end all but lets at least acknowledge it any who is benefiting financially ??
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/olympics/how-much-money-medals-winners-paid-b1897920.html
First google for Tokyo ^ ... $13.4 Billion and not a cent paid to the athletes who are working for free.
American TV network NBC alone paid $7.7bn for the broadcasting rights to the summer and winter games until 2032, and has sold $1.25bn in advertising for Tokyo 2020.
Team GB don't pay our athletes a penny for the dubious honour of working for free...
Why does the media bombard us with "how many medals" TeamGB has won and why should we even care?
What financial value does taking part in the Olympics confer to the UK? (Or hosting it but that's almost another gravy train)
BC CEO earns £64k per year (plus expenses, bribes and back handers) and they admit to having 250 people in their employment yet they don't pay a cyclist a single penny** for competing? (**Some training expenses)
How many people in that total gravy train for someone competing at the Olympics ?? From BC through TeamGB, the UCI and IOC that's a whole load of people making money off the back of an athlete working for free.
There is of course the ability to gain "celebrity" ... and for some athletes such as track and field they seem pretty much locked in but in all honesty who actually remembers most of them in sports we aren't interested in? What happened to some British table tennis medal winner for example... (assuming it's an Olympic sport)
Ultimately, I think whoever is making money it's mostly not the athletes and certainly not most of the athletes.
Then various bodies decide how the athletes may or may not get their income, sometimes just taking income sources away. (e.g. GoPro) because they get a deal.
Someone mentioned Pivot Factory Racing earlier (if not by name by inference) ... but that income is in spite of and with GoPro sponsorship removed since UCI decided they would OWN it and athletes GoPro became the IP of the UCI thus messing up their sponsorship deals...
Remember the OnlyFans ban for Lewis Buchanan.. basically a self proclaimed body saying yes/no and deciding who can and who can't sponsor a rider in what they have self proclaimed to be the defacto global body.
The point really being if they (UCI/BC) are not going to pay the athletes a proper salary and health benefits then how they make enough money to live and compete shouldn't be up to them. (Or if they retire due to injury and start having to sell drugs like Missy to eat) ... how is anyone ever going to progress up the ranks without sponsorship that could be cutoff at any point by a self appointed body. It seems NRA money is good for the UCI but not a social media site that has some pornographic content... but very specific content as Instagram is OK ??
I guess what I mean is treat them as employees... including paying for medical bills for work related injuries and pensions or let them make money however they can.
Then you have the whole pigeonholing a whole sport into some Olympic or otherwise medal machine where even the limited support they get is targeted at the few that fit the mould and say the right things - for example right at the grass roots end a local cycling club will be quite happy to bypass their 3 yr waiting list for someone who can win them medals kicking someone else off the waiting list.
Beyond the financial there is the whole questionable nationalism behind it. Having one nation compete against others seems so 19C.. be that a UCI world cup or Olympics.
ayjaydoubleyou
There is no reason the teams can’t just leave. Just say they are no longer pursuing professional WC downhill. At least two teams have just done so. YT dropped out a few years ago (to focus on freeride/slope, and content creation) and there have been a few others.
I think the point is they shouldn't have to, its not like the UCI is anything but a self appointed body.
Why can't RedBull or IXS or a whole load together simply set up a DH World Cup and call it a World Cup.. or an Enduro WC etc. and just ignore the existence of the UCI and national bodies. (Like Enduro used to be before they got their teeth into it) and build a organisation from grass roots and kids through to world cups?
Weeksy
Explain how this works then… which events ? Who’s running them ? how are they organised ? We’re talking MASSIVE events here not a local DH race (which is hard enough on it’s own to organise), with hundreds of competitors, teams, wagons, pits, hotels, viewers etc, then TV/broadcasting, it’s a massive massive undertaking.
UCI don't do the logistics, it happens in spite of them not because of them using event management companies.
A global tech company I used to work for used to do global events with thousands of attendees... they just hired event management, media etc. - The LTA don't event manage Wimbledon etc.
Most of them take place in resorts that are falling over themselves and pay to be selected, media companies who want exclusive rights etc. and pay (factory team fees went up) but that's just the top part of the pyramid... ideally financial benefits would filter down to the local level but that's never going to happen with gravy train organisations like UCI and Olympic medal delivery funded BC.
None of that though has affected what the viewers have seen. Sure there seems to be issues with GCN+ feeds and the lack of options in US and other countries, but as we’re in a very UK centric forum, for me anyway the Discovery+ app on Sky has been brilliant, clear options, instant viewing, no spoilers etc etc.
Well it's certainly affected what I can see... it went from being a sport anyone can follow to only rich people
Well it’s certainly affected what I can see… it went from being a sport anyone can follow to only rich people
£36 a year for the full WCDH calendar on Discovery plus at £6 a month for 6 months.... Many that's not rich... That's pretty damn cheap.
Is that total costs? I don't need to have discovery+ or anything extra?
So far I've been riding to the YT Mill to watch but its pretty disruptive to riding.
That is discovery+ costs mate yes. You can pay for it and cancel anytime, so people are just buying it for 5 months. I get ours through Sky Q for free... But unless i'm mistaken, the above is correct. The Discovery app is decent enough, doesn't have spoilers, has catch-up all the time and apart from a bit of a quirky menu that you soon get used to, is pretty decent.
We've watched 50% of them live, the rest the days after... this weekend we'll watch juniors on Fri evening, but then we're away for the finals, so we'll get that on Sunday night.
It's £39.99 on GCN+ for the whole year, which includes all the road racing calendar if you're into that, or £6.99 a month and you have to subscribe for a month.
Re: athletes' pay from governing bodies. FIFA don't pay Lionel Messi - his agent leverages the image, reach and exposure global football gives him and turns that into endorsement deals.
Mountain biking is pretty backwards when it comes to athlete & team sponsorships TBH, it might be a controversial view to some, but I think the sport needs more agents to represent athletes & teams, and sell their endorsement rights/reach to sponsors outside the bike industry. Also, see teams running as proper businesses (just like in the pro peloton) rather than a mostly factory run marketing cost centre.
it might be a controversial view to some, but I think the sport needs more agents to represent athletes & teams, and sell their endorsement rights/reach to sponsors outside the bike industry.
That's a bit chicken and egg though, it can't happen until there's unmet demand from outside the industry for MTB athletes. Sadly I don't think that's the case yet.
AndyRM
Mountain biking is pretty backwards when it comes to athlete & team sponsorships TBH, it might be a controversial view to some, but I think the sport needs more agents to represent athletes & teams, and sell their endorsement rights/reach to sponsors outside the bike industry. Also, see teams running as proper businesses (just like in the pro peloton) rather than a mostly factory run marketing cost centre.
I'm not disagreeing... I just think it needs to be one or the other.
Ideally with a riders union as well...
That’s a bit chicken and egg though, it can’t happen until there’s unmet demand from outside the industry for MTB athletes. Sadly I don’t think that’s the case yet.
It's not going to happen whilst the various governing bodies can just make a deal for themselves and take the sponsorship away from the athletes. (Like UCI/GoPro but you can apply that to any sponsor) or whilst they can make arbitrary decisions on what sponsors riders are allowed to have or what other work they are allowed to do.
Where is the incentive for any outside the industry/periphery company to sponsor a team/rider if they can just be blacklisted by the UCI or someone?
nickc
It’s £39.99 on GCN+ for the whole year, which includes all the road racing calendar if you’re into that, or £6.99 a month and you have to subscribe for a month.
If that is literally it I might consider it... especially with the £30... as its become quite disruptive to actual riding trying to get to somewhere to watch it free..
Where is the incentive for any outside the industry/periphery company to sponsor a team/rider if they can just be blacklisted by the UCI or someone?
Other than a porn site, is this actually happening?
Look at F1, all kinds of central and driver sponsorship. Not sure cycling is* any different to that, a good example being WvA's Red Bull helmet when the rest of the team where the normal ones.
*bar the lack of appeal to these sponsors
If that is literally it I might consider it
As long as you have a phone/tablet/tv/whatever already, that is it
£30 for GCN+ for the year via this link.
@frogstomp - does that code/link work for you? I've tried it a few times, and it just takes me to the standard payment plan/prices.