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Basically this is bugging me on another forum
guys had a new frame supplied and hes been told 120 for a full rebuild, people are saying its too much blah blah and it only takes 30 minutes NOT 2 hours.
Here is what prompted me to post here....
Not meaning to start a rant but really?
Free man hours? Do you do your job for free.
Have you any idea how difficult it is to run a shop when online sellers are pumping out goods at less than poor old shop keeper can buy them for and then you want them to provide their labour for free? It is the only thing left that can't be sold on the web!!I can't speak for all bike workshops but for the £120 you will be getting a stripdown clean and rebuild which by its nature is going to double as a full service.
THEN THIS RESPONSE
Bollocks.
Since when did a build take 2 hours? And why is it worth £60 per hour? If shops are really charging this kind of rate for very basic mechanical and engineering knowledge, there's no wonder the web is winning.
Please help me totally flame the bloke that said this because i think it takes at least 2 hours and may well cost that much....
Thanks guys.
Obviously been told by people who haven't ever built a bike! 30mins, no way! At least 2 hrs if they want a proper job done.
depends are parts - cables or oils included?
I could not build a frame up in 2 hours but not sure what a pro, or Hora, could do
Doing my own work shop prices always seem steep tbh.
Supplied as in under warranty btw?
[quote=wysiwyg ]Supplied as in under warranty btw?
That was going to be my first question.
If the shop sold the origanl bike then why any labour charge.
If he has just wondered in off the street then 120 seems about right
People pay because they can't do it themselves and nothing wrong with that
On a slight tangent then amount of stuff build / assembled by people that think they know but don't is huge
And tools cost money as does Insureance etc
Opps I'm rambling blame then Duvall
Id also say geographical location? I would assume labour charges in the middle of london are different to a small LBS in the shire
Tell him to get another quote from another shop. When it's a similar price, tell him to do the work himself. When he says he can't, tell him to pay someone that can. For example, a bike shop. Suggest he pay what they ask.
Wow, I'm impressed that anyone can build a bike in 30 mins.
So, what?
Press headset and BB inc. getting tools ready...
Fit front and rear mech...
Fit (and maybe trim) forks...
Fit stem/bars...
Mount disc calipers and route cables/fit levers...
Measure and trim gear cables/fit shifters...
Fit chainset...
Install wheels...
Fit chain...
Set-up gears...
Align disc calipers...
Fit seatclamp/post/saddle...
Fit grips...
Fit pedals...
Ride and adjust...
Even compacting everything like that (and I've still probably forgotten something) that's 2 minutes per task - I'd be asking for a job in Formula 1 if I were that quick. That's also assuming the disc hoses don't need trimming/re-fitting/bleeding.
This is also stated to be a re-build too - let's hope the old frame doesn't need stripping down too!
Bollocks.Since when did a build take 2 hours? And why is it worth £60 per hour? If shops are really charging this kind of rate for very basic mechanical and engineering knowledge, there's no wonder the web is winning.
As a mechanic in a small rural bike shop i'd hand him the tools and quite happily sit on a stool, quoff espresso and hurl abuse at him whilst watching him attempt to build a bike from a bare frameset up to the level of quality that i would accept for my own bike within a 2 hr window, don't forget to frame tape either.
[i] very basic mechanical and engineering knowledge [/i]
Excuse my "STW forumite" outlandish claims to my mechanical superiority but 20 yrs + of a mixture of Vehicle Mechanics/Mechanical Engineering/Thermodynamics/Stress and Strain analysis & CAD Design/BSC Mech Eng/HND Electronic Eng along with riding and building mtbs' since i got a muddy fox explorer in 1987 would lead me to call "utter prick" on the original person mentioned in ancients post above.
I'm utterly sure i could build a bike from a bare frameset in 30min, whether or not i would want to ride it is another matter entirely.
pay peanuts....get monkeys...yada....yada....etc...etc....
OP, link to the offending thread/forum?
Whenever I re build a bike I takes longer than 2 hours to clean everything properly! A shop can charge what they like if someone is willing to pay it. Personally I wouldn't pay that or infact pay a shop as I've invested years in learning and a lot in tools, as do home car mechanics, plumbers, electricians era
If he wants to flame someone how about we start with solicitors and estate agents!
£60 per hour?
😯
I'd have no problem paying for 2 hrs work, but I don't pay £60 an hour for work on my car.
I've just had a build done. I supplied all parts apart from inner and outer cables. Took no more than an hour. It rides like a dream.
£40. A bargain.
erm - 30 mins to do the job is not even up for discussion as its not possible. While I agree it takes time to build the bike to a high standard (it can take me 30 mins just to get the brakes feeling perfect!) I think if I was a shop owner I would not be advertising the £60 per hour part / 2 hours work.
I think £40 per hour and 3 hours build time seems more reasonable to me, exactly the same overall price, but based over 3 hours gives me as a customer a feeling of value for money / attention to detail.
As a shop, you can quote different prices per job/ service package and dont have to offer a flat rate for everything.
A couple of years ago I paid £100 for my old bike to be stripped and then rebuilt onto another frame which I thought was okay. That price was not for new cables or anything but I was happy enough to pay as it would have been a few more runs in the car so all in all I was quite happy.
It takes me closer to a day. Most if that is trying to find where I put each tool...
I'm afraid this happens in all skill/experience heavy trades, where people who know a little bit think you're having their pants down.
I'm a kitchen and bathroom fitter and constantly get the 'it's only a quick job, won't take you long, I'd do it myself if I had all the tools' when going to quote. It's really quite offensive to me, people who don't know what the job entails telling me how long it'll take and how much I should be charging.
They seem to forget that it's the knowledge and skill gained over years, along with the specialist tools that you've spent a fortune on, make it a quick job. but only want to pay for the actual time it takes. They then compare what you've charged with their hourly rate and work out you're making a fortune, without taking into account the Tax, NI, Business running costs, Insurances, Fuel, Tool maintenance/replacement, lack of holiday pay/sick pay/pension.
I'd say £80-£120 would be a good price for a complete build, I've built 100's of bikes over the years for myself and others but not as a business. No way in the world would you get anything ridable in 30 mins, basic components screwed/pressed onto frame maybe, but 2-3hrs more like to finish and adjust and that's if you get a shift on.
Ignore it, trying to correct the internet ain't worth it 🙂
The internet is full of buffoons who know better than professionals at any task.......ignore and move on
[i]I'm afraid this happens in all skill/experience heavy trades, where people who know a little bit think you're having their pants down.[/i]
Yep, I've worked in IT all my life and since the rise of home-networks folk think they are experts just 'cos they can get their wireless working.
In fact only last week my Boss said to me that if we get one more bit of 'advice' about how to do our jobs from one of our users (Doctor) we're going to go see then and tell them how to do theirs. Well, anyone can prescribe a few pills after searching Google for am 'answer'. 🙂
Not worth arguing with people like that - often it's more amusing to let them crack on and make expensive mistakes themselves.
£60 per hour? If shops are really charging this kind of rate for very basic mechanical and engineering knowledge, there's no wonder the web is winning.
The internet builds bikes now too? We're all doomed I tell you, doomed.
You do realise the £60 an hour is not 100% profit, the guy is running a business, rent/rates ,insurances not to mention the investment in tools etc, if you want a professional to do a professional job then pay for it, if you dont want to pay for it, buy the tools and learn to do it yourself 🙄
And the phrase that bike mechanics just love to hear is "I'm an engineer..." 😉
When I was a Bikehut manager Halfords used to target us for 20 min to PDI a bike. To build one from a pile of bits is way longer than a half hour job. You may be able to bolt all the bits on in that time but it allows no leeway for actually checking things, fishing the right Allen key out from under the work stand again, something not quite fitting correctly or simply actually taking care of the parts you are assembling.
If I didn't do all my spanner ing myself I'd have said that £120 is a reasonable fee for assembly but if I'd bought all or most of the expensive bit from them I would be hoping for some leeway, especially if I had paid their prices. If I'd leveraged them into price matching online retailers or brought the frame and forks in, I'd expect to pay. The shop has to pay their overheads somehow, there are only so many times you can grind the end off a 5mm Allen before you have to buy another!x
They seem to forget that it's the knowledge and skill gained over years, along with the specialist tools that you've spent a fortune on, make it a quick job. but only want to pay for the actual time it takes. They then compare what you've charged with their hourly rate and work out you're making a fortune, without taking into account the Tax, NI, Business running costs, Insurances, Fuel, Tool maintenance/replacement, lack of holiday pay/sick pay/pension.
Exactly! I have had to buy hundreds of pounds worth of tools and equipment over the years for my profession as a cabinetmaker and generally, a person who does skilled work with their hands. I've trained several years in college, degree level after that, and countless years building up practical experience, and still people pay you sod all and expect everything.
How many I.T workers for instance have to buy their own computers in their job?
Always been a huge wage disparity between hands on work and less tangible work. I'd hate to deal with some of the goons you must get in a bike shop.
My lbs charged me £40 to take in one complete bike and one frame, and to swap everything over from one frame to the other. Prices must have gone up, because the next time I asked them, the charge was £50. Seemed like a bargain to me. Before they quoted me £40, they had obviously checked that all the parts like the bb etc fitted on both frames.
Works well (IMO) for the lbs since if they find out that anything is knackered (bb, headset, cables, hub bearings) then those are obviously all chargeable as extra.
I was quoted an half hours labour for the fitting of a new cassette and chain by my LBS.They also offered to sell me the parts for full rrp, so it was well over £100 for Shimano 105 supplied and fitted.
I declined and went to the interweb and fitted them myself.
If they had offered to fit them for nowt and I would of probably paid the full rrp to save me the bother. Surely that would of made more sense to them?
How many I.T workers for instance have to buy their own computers in their job?
All the self-employed ones. Same as bike mechanics.
Argos cycles prices are FROM £180 for a strip down then rebuild
It's the age old thing. You'll never get rich selling your labour, selling your knowledge however...
If it's too much, let him crack on. After all, a job is really only 'worth' what someone is prepared to pay for it.
doubledunter - Member
You do realise the £60 an hour is not 100% profit, the guy is running a business, rent/rates ,insurances not to mention the investment in tools etc, if you want a professional to do a professional job then pay for it, if you dont want to pay for it, buy the tools and learn to do it yourself
My car mechanic has made a bigger investment in tools and training and yet doesn't feel the need to charge £60 per hour.
[i]All the self-employed ones. Same as bike mechanics. [/i]
Er, not really. No way in IT do you let people bring their own PC's and add them onto a corporate network.
doubledunter - Member
You do realise the £60 an hour is not 100% profit, the guy is running a business, rent/rates ,insurances not to mention the investment in tools etc, if you want a professional to do a professional job then pay for it, if you dont want to pay for it, buy the tools and learn to do it yourselfMy car mechanic has made a bigger investment in tools and training and yet doesn't feel the need to charge £60 per hour.
Maybe your car mechanic needs the work 😉 , Im self employed myself and I get this on a regular basis when pricing work, end of the day you get what you pay for, if you dont want to pay the money to get a job done properly get some monkey to do it ,simples,you usually find the ones that are cheap need the work and are just busy fools .
My car mechanic has made a bigger investment in tools and training and yet doesn't feel the need to charge £60 per hour.
He probably has a more sustainable business than a bike shop. As other people have said, different bike shops charge different amounts so the rate could easily reflect where that particular business needs to make a profit. It probably would be better to invoice jobs at a flat rate (in fact, do we know they are invoicing at £60 per hour?).
you get what you pay for,
Arrogant overcharger who dismisses cheaper skilled alternatives 😉
I know an great carpet fitter who has a longish waiting list as he is cheap and good.
the dear folk will come round tomorrow
I know an great carpet fitter who has a longish waiting list as he is cheap and good.
It's much easier to be poor and busy than rich and idle 😉
My car mechanic has made a bigger investment in tools and training and yet doesn't feel the need to charge £60 per hour.
My thoughts exactly. £50-60 p/h is what I'd expect to pay in a local non-franchise garage to have work done on my car. The investment in tools, machinery and now computer equipment needed to run a small garage is in a different league to what's needed to set up a bike workshop.
Push bikes aren't complicated devices, and the tools required to work on them are basic and inexpensive. If a bike mechanic thinks that £60 p/h is a fair price then they need to take a reality check.
Having said that, if he's working in a part of the country where customers are willing to pay that sort of money then fair play to him. You charge what the market is willing to pay.
Out of interest, what do folk think is a fair wage for an OK bike mechanic, and a really good one?
My guess is salaries average minimum wage or thereabouts to £15K, outside london, and average hourly charge £30-40?
£60 seems steep, 30mins is a joke, 2 hours is realistic but it can take longer if stupid/fancy/incompatible parts are spec'd.
Push bikes aren't complicated devices, and the tools required to work on them are basic and inexpensive
The comparison with cars is interesting. I know people in the car repair industry, and modern cars aren't "repaired" as such, a computer is plugged in, the computer tells you what part is faulty, and you replace that part. There's not much in the way of diagnosis, problem solving, working out solutions, inventing bodges or fettling. the computer costs a lot, but the skill level has decreased a lot over the years.
But all these comparisons are basically pointless. If the shop is overcharging it will go out of business. If you think you can do it better for less, start your own bike shop. No-one is forcing you to pay for anything, and there's no cartel of bike shops - in fact trying to get the bike industry to agree on anything is like trying to herd cats.
A fair charge for repairs?
Personally I think about £30 an hr.
When I was up in Scotland used Willy Bain a coupe of times. Did a really good job and a nice bloke as well.
[url=
Bain Glasgow[/url]
It's much easier to be poor and busy than rich and idle
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Nice line that Ben