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So about a year ago I was lucky enough to blag an extended demo on a plus-wheeled Solaris. Thought it was an absolute hoot on the right trail, but a bit of a handful on the wrong one.
Fast forward to last weekend and I stopped by the Cotic demo day at Calver and tried a 29" wheeled version. And absolutely hated it, which really surprised me. I don't have much 29" experience (I had a crack on an original Solaris maybe 4 years ago?), but it was just a lump. An efficient one - chomped up hill quite nicely and was rapid down, but it was simply a case of point and hang on - I didn't/couldn't "ride" it. Hopping it was just hard work to try and get it off the ground and at no point did I ever feel involved in the process.
I then took a Mk5 BFe out, and that was everything the Solaris wasn't. Maybe not as fast (especially up), but it put an enormous grin on my face. It was fun.
Having looked at the various obvious competitors in the traily 29/650+ market, they're all within a few mm of each other geometry wise (I was sad enough to sketch them out in CAD, and by the time you've corrected for preferred riding position, there's sod all difference between them.
So what am I missing? Is it simply that at 5'10" and 145lb, I'm simply not tall enough/strong enough to make a 29er work for me? Any recommendations of other bikes I should look at? I'm currently running 2 26" bikes - a 22.5lb Soda that's hard work to keep on the ground, but fast as f*** on woodsy singletrack and a Rocket, that despite having 6" travel both ends is still playful. I'm looking for a hardtail that rides similarly to the Rocket (swapping to the Soda takes a good few hours of recalibration before I can ride it properly), that I can do big days in the saddle on, but still ride all the cheeky steep gnarly lines without dying to death.
I'm going to say what i own, purely because in this circumstances it may be the right and cheap answer, eay to find 2nd hand too.
On-one Parkwood.
I'm your height and just a couple of pounds heavier and vastly prefer 29ers. This may just be a riding style / feel thing. Could it be that a 29er needs a good few hours of recalibration before you can ride it properly?
My current bike is a [url= 
]Chromag Surface[/url], which does me very nicely - it's certainly not causing any dying to death on steep and gnarly stuff. 🙂
See here for example.
I have a Solaris and I can see where you're coming from, the BB is a bit high in 29er format, the head angle is more XC than enduro and - most significantly - the long chainstays give it a planted, stable feel.
It suits my needs really well, but you might wanna try something with shorter stays - maybe a Stanton Sherpa, Kona Honzo or that new Kingdom (Vendetta?) ti frame.
I've had a couple of 29ers with 430mm stays and they can be really nippy and playful.
Hi Jon 🙂 same as you I love the solaris in Chubby mode but on 29s it's just not the same bike. I thought it was because I only rode 29s when conditions were rubbish, but it's definitely more than that and I'd agree with your analysis. Okay at everything but doesn't make me giggle like the plus version.
I'd have thought on of those new Pipedreams would-be a good shout. Not sure how well they climb, but they must be an absolute hoot to descend on. Those Chromag's are a good shout as well.
Also running a Surface here - older than dummy’s but lots n lots of fun. I too have a 6” full sus but local trails mean the Surface gets out more
I’m 5’ 8” and have no problem with handling it
What chakaping said ^
Y'see a Sherpa was one of the bikes I compared the Solaris to. 1/2 deg slacker HA & SA, 7mm shorter stays, 2mm higher BB. Sorry but that's sod all. (although somehow that translates into 20mm in the wheelbase).
SC Chameleon. Shorter back end, a little difficult to compare directly as the geometry charts seem to be based on unsagged. Have never got on with SC sizing in the past. (I know they've changed it a bit recently)
Chromag frames don't seem to be being imported at the mo.
Kingdom - hadn't considered that. Quite spendy though!
But all these frames - where can I demo? SC demos pass through 18Bikes periodically which could be handy. The likes of Stanton, Chromag or Kingdom, I'm simply not prepared to commit to spending the best part of £3k on a completely new build without [i]knowing[/i] that what I'm buying is The Right Thing (tm) and that requires a proper off road ride on local trails. Cotic make it very easy, as there's a demo fleet that lives about 8 miles away from me!
Sorry - not interested in an On-One.
I'm on a Zealous Division MK2, great geometry and the shortest back end of any 29er. It's very playful thanks to that, easy to manual and hop. I love it...might be hard to get a demo right enough. I'm 5'10 and weigh 155lbs.
Steel is Real demo on 29th Oct at Forest of Dean. There’s quite a few hardtails there (I believe)
Sorry but that's sod all. (although somehow that translates into 20mm in the wheelbase).
So small changes add up? People keep saying that solaris=sherpa but whenever you look on other threads people who have ridden both say that they are quite different bikes.
Slightly left field - what about a Stooge with a 120mm fork? Apparently it is hilarious fun and rags the arse off most other HTs.
Or a Canfield Nimble 9? Safe to say it looks like a proper yob of a bike.
There's a new Stanton about to be released/announced the Switch9er,not many details but the clues in the name I guess-more aggressive / fun styled 29er -I think I saw the mention of 140/150ish forks and maybe only in Ti to start with.
[url= 
]Switch9er[/url]
Y'see a Sherpa was one of the bikes I compared the Solaris to. 1/2 deg slacker HA & SA, 7mm shorter stays, 2mm higher BB. Sorry but that's sod all. (although somehow that translates into 20mm in the wheelbase).
Stanton have recently been teasing something called - "Switch9er", which would suggest a 29" Switchback, ie. longerer and slackerer than the Sherpa.
EDIT: Beaten by a minute!
Y'see a Sherpa was one of the bikes I compared the Solaris to. 1/2 deg slacker HA & SA, 7mm shorter stays, 2mm higher BB. Sorry but that's sod all.
No need to apologise, The Sherpa might not be right for you. I would say focus on bikes with 430mm or less chainstays if poss.
Plenty around though, so I'm sure you could get a go on someone else's. That won't be so easy with a Kingdom or Chromag obvs.
https://www.reallygoodbikes.co.uk/
Really good bikes, the UK distro for Kingdom are based in Gloucestershire, and if you are serious about wanting a demo..mail them.
I'm offering fully mobile demo facilities for testing Kingdom Bikes and performance components. I'm based in Gloucestershire, so have access to a great amount of riding terrain - Bike Park Wales, Forest of Dean, local spots etc. I can meet you wherever is suitable (within reason, just message me).
I’ve nice ridden a Sherpa but a few of my mates have them and love them. One can from a Cotic Solaris and much perfers rye Sherpa due to it feeling a bit more fun.
Dan and co are really helpful and will let you test ride if you can get to Matlock.
If the Sherpa isn’t your bag, as mentioned there’s the new Switch29er which is due out soon. I’m guessing it’ll be a beast (I’ve had three Switchback’s and they’re bloody good).
@Spooky - well that's a challenging looking beast! I think a mate (now moved to Canada) had an older one for a while - I remember that seattube(?) set up, but not the wonky DT.
I bought an Onza Payoff complete bike on ebay a few months ago. Loving it. Totally different ride to my singlespeed Singular Swift.
New ones are very good value.
Without wishing to sound like a cock, define "playful"...
We're all after different things! What I've found is to a lot of people, playful still means "feels engaging on average singletrack at average speeds" which inevitably means quite conservative geometry and not necessarily suited to someone else's "playful" if they mean "able to keep up with my fast mates on their full sus bikes on steep and techy terrain"...
FWIW been loving my Whyte 29C of late. For most of my riding it's so much fun! But I wouldn't take it to some of the steeper techier places I ride on occasion and expect to keep up with my fast mates on their full sus bikes there if that makes sense...
I don't know how the numbers stack up, but have you looked at the Orange P7 29? Out in shops very soon (next month?).
The 27.5 version is a great bike so hopefully they've got the 29 right too.
Well I have had a 29C in the past and it is faster than the Payoff. However, the Payoff virtually encourages you to manual over stuff and launch off ramps. Never quite felt the same about the 29C. Also feel more confident on the steeper stuff on the Payoff so attempt to ride more things.
I would say that a 29er certainly can be playful...
In fact, even my Scandal in full XC racey mode was a hoot!! Jumps and 'pops' would be great fun! But for a proper 29er hoot, this is my go to..
[img] 
[/img]
Chromag Rootdown (similar Geo to the surface(s) linke to above..)
It's one of the first bikes i'd agree wholehartedly with the reveiwes - it's like a 'big BMX' in teh sense you can whip, pop, and hop and jump off/over roots/stumps/jumps with ease...however it's really capable on the DH's too..
The wheelbase is probably short by uber modern figures, but I ruddy love it!
DrP
On One Parkwood is pretty playful for a big wheeler, doesn't have the car park cred of the other brands you list but it's a good ride. Which reminds me I must sell mine!
Without wishing to sound like a cock, define "playful"...
Exactly. To me fun is going fast and carving long turns, stuff that a 29er excels at in general. Steep, slow, tight, thrutchy tech? No thanks.
Ive got a Trek Stache 29+ and thats playful in the extreme. 5ft11 and 11st4lbs.
Modern 29 geometry is agile and fast. Make sure your riding 51mm offset forks on 29er it makes a big difference from 46mm offset.
Ooh, I hadn't realised Stanton are in Matlock. (guess it makes sense - I've ridden through Stanton In The Peak a good few times!) Might make contact...
Definition of "playful"? Light on its feet. Nimble. Makes you look for trail features to double up over. I want to have to work for my jollies - not just point and shoot. Pure fast? Not necessarily - fine as a byproduct of good riding, but far from the be all and end all.
In the suggest what you own camp....new Santa Cruz chameleon with plus wheels. Light, low top tube, slack enough to handle the steeper stuff but steep enough to be fun at more moderate speeds. Most fun hardtail I've own against a Swarf, 2souls quarterhorse to name a couple of comparatives. Plus wheels help too, coming from someone who loves 29er wheels. They take some of the sting out the rear and just feel more...well...playful.
..and there's more...
Part of my confusion is to how I could enjoy the chubby Solaris so much, but hate the 29 version. Angles will be the same, BB drop will be the same (even if the whole bike is slightly lower). I was genuinely not expecting to enjoy the plus tyres, but had an absolute hoot (in a slightly uncontrolled fashion at times); whereas the 29er, which I was expecting to like after the chubby just felt inert.
I'm basically not sold that plus is an all year, all trail, all weather solution. Tyres seem either fragile or heavy, I completely get the comments from people who hate them in proper mud, and on the "wrong" trail - really rough stuff, they're quite unpredictable when the undamped bounce from the tyre catches you out. I'm based in the Peak, so have lots of rocks to play on, but also a good selection of loamy rooty stuff, which is what the chubbys excel on.
at 5'10" and 145lb,
You must be a proper racing snake , I'm the same height and 40 lb heavier and I'm not exactly fat .
I've got a carbon kona honzo with very short stays and great geometry. Also have a zealous and they are very similar. So either one I would recommend as what you are looking for is what I wanted a few weeks back too.
Part of my confusion is to how I could enjoy the chubby Solaris so much, but hate the 29 version. Angles will be the same, BB drop will be the same (even if the whole bike is slightly lower). I was genuinely not expecting to enjoy the plus tyres, but had an absolute hoot (in a slightly uncontrolled fashion at times); whereas the 29er, which I was expecting to like after the chubby just felt inert.
I tried plus on my Solaris recently and totally agree it's much more fun that way. I put it down to the significantly lower BB giving it more confidence and the mad level of grip from the big tyres.
I'm basically not sold that plus is an all year, all trail, all weather solution.
Yep, I reckon I'll mainly use my plus wheels for mucking about in woods in summer and trail centres that ain't too lumpy (Gisburn was a bit hard going).
@OP
I'm currently running 2 26" bikes - a 22.5lb Soda that's hard work to keep on the ground, but fast as f*** on woodsy singletrack
Light on its feet. Nimble. Makes you look for trail features to double up over. I want to have to work for my jollies - not just point and shoot. Pure fast? Not necessarily - fine as a byproduct of good riding, but far from the be all and end all.
I'm not sure you are going to get more light and nimble than a 22.5lb Soda....
Production privee Shan GT. Gotta say of the few 29ers I've had and riden this is the closest I've found to a great fun bike, I'll almost go and say it, it's the closest to a 26inch feeling bike fun wise I've had in a few years and that
include's a few 27.5 hardtail to. I'm running it at 120mm fork but it will go to 140. Not tryed plus size yet but have gone full fat so it does interest a good bit. Kinda looking at that pipe dream moxie that was on the home page. Few weeks ago looks the dogs dangerlys gotta say.
Production privee Shan GT
Got to say, I have an itch developing that I might have to scratch.
Have the 26" flavour at the moment
[img] 
[/img]
Last Fast Forward or NS Excentric Cromo 29?
Recommend what you have 😀
[url= https://flic.kr/p/ZcYddp ]NS Eccentric Cromo 29"[/url]
Seems playful to me! Definitely fun!
I'll also recommend what I've got as it seems to be the thing to do 😆
[url= https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2656/33107042265_7ee0c8b92c_c.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2656/33107042265_7ee0c8b92c_c.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/Sryfex ]Eli approves.[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/stu-b/ ]multispeedstu[/url], on Flickr
Just about the slackest and longest production 29er out there.
Oh and so much fun on any kind of trail.
The ShanGT does get me fizzy in my baggies but then I see the press fit bb and integrated headset and the feeling subsides.
Why use steel and then incorporate the 2 most uselessly irritating "standards" out there?
Shackleton. Yeah I've had all three variants of Shan 26.27.5 and 29er. And while I agree about the bottom bracket there one was rubbish!!! if you fit a hope one it is all good and to be fair I've not had any issues regards headset even with there own brand one except my be with the original 26 with the mesh grill but good grease and covering it helped there.
Some interesting options I hadn't really heard of there, thanks.
I'm not sure you are going to get more light and nimble than a 22.5lb Soda....
And therein lies part of the problem. As it happens I've just been for a few laps of Lady Canning on it and back down Blacka. On Cannings it's sublime, but I definitely have to back off the pace coming down rocky stuff, and I don't count the likes of Devils Elbow as especially technical. I can survive rockier stuff, but it's not a lot of fun, and there's no way I'd try riding Golfy style trails on it. I'd be over the bars at the first corner.
The more I think about it, the more I think it's not so much the 26"ness of the bike that's the issue - its things like steep head angle/long stem (70mm ha!) on 7 year old straight steerer 32mm forks and relatively whippy BB (although that pays off in comfort). If I could get a "modern 26 Soda" I'd be pretty happy. But there's no point as forks are already an issue (and my Rebas are dying slowly and horribly), and I can see it won't be long before tyres go the same way. There's places I can see the better rolling abilities of the big wheels being an advantage, but equally, the sheer inertia of waggon wheels means they'll never have the same nimbleness as a 26"
This thread has completely ignored non-plus 650b as I'm not convinced they have a long term future. I've worked on a good few enduro/mini dh races over the past couple of years and 29ers are getting more and more dominant year on year. The last thing I want to do is spend eleventy thousand pounds on an all new bike and find in 5 years time that it's all obsolete.
Definition of "playful"? Light on its feet. Nimble. Makes you look for trail features to double up over. I want to have to work for my jollies - not just point and shoot. Pure fast? Not necessarily - fine as a byproduct of good riding, but far from the be all and end all.
Interesting, as that's exactly what I would describe my Mk2 Solaris as, with 29" wheels.
But then I have a very slack, long & mega low 29er I use for bigger days out, racing DH & enduro on, so it was very important to me (and pointless) not to buy essentially a HT version of what I already have.
It was either a Solaris or Sherpa for me, I bought whichever I found first 🙂
My choices based on numbers and not trying any of them would be
Ns djambo 29er
Santa cruz chameleon
Pace r127+
All plus and 29er
New BFe… 30mm+ rims, 2.6" tyres… GO!
Why 29er?
This thread has completely ignored non-plus 650b as I'm not convinced they have a long term future.
I'll be interested to revisit this in a good few years! My gut feeling is that we'll see competition MTBs being either 584 or 622mm rims (so-called 27.5 and 29) and tyre widths from 2.2 to 2.6 (with the odd skinnier mud XC tyre). If 29 had a clear cut advantage in enduro it would be more obvious by now!
It's a shame 26 died so fast in competition (bar freeride) because it would be easier to get a feel for the real effects of diameter.