[Closed] "Playful" 29er hardtail?

Have you thought about putting the Soda parts on a long slack (but not too low) 27.5 frame? Like the new BFe!

The new BFe is a beast. Very impressed with it. I'm stealing one for an extended demo next weekend. But it does come down to this obsolescence thing.

There's very few bits on the Soda that would carry over. Cranks, BB that's about it. Brakes are shot, rear wheel won't convert to 12mm TA without complete new guts, for a heavier bike I'd rather go 11spd with a wider range cassette etc. At that point, I'd rather keep the Soda as the beautiful, light, blindingly fast thing for dusty summer evenings, and build a new bike, "right" rather than mackled up out of unsuitable parts.

Do that.

Oh, I missed about the old 32mm stanchion forks...

I went through a similar thing with my trusty Soul once I got used to my Spitfire - I solved it by building up a Bird Zero AM with near identical parts to the Spitfire. I'd have probably bought the BFe now the geometry's been changed but the Zero AM is great. I like having the same wheels on both, it's very handy being able to swap them entirely or swap tyres back and forth.

Although I've separated them more now - bars are 60mm wider and head angle about 3 degrees slacker (Works -2 headset) on the Spitfire but I still find it very easy to swap between them. I am curious about a 29" version but not curious enough.

Have a look at Sick Bicycles as well - seemed like loads of haters on here but they seem pretty chilled and the bikes do look different

So, OP, what did you get?

I would recommend mine (Parkwood 29er) but there haven't been any frames in stock for months and the rear end could do with a touch more tyre clearance (I think it's the front mech that rubs first though, so 1x would sort that aspect) although I'm doing fine now I've put procore in.

singlespeedstu - Member
I'll also recommend what I've got as it seems to be the thing to do

I'll also recommend what Stu has, it's a brilliant bike.

For your weight and coming from a Soda I'd recommend having a go on a Titus Fireline.

They're a very playful light 29er with short chainstays.

The new BFe is a beast. Very impressed with it. I'm stealing one for an extended demo next weekend.

What did you think of it? I really like the look of it - the only thing against it is what seems like a fairly slack seat angle (I know it's steeper than the old one but my Zero AM is at 74 deg before sag). Any thoughts on the pedalling position, especially when climbing?

I also have a Last Fastforward, and it is a great bike in many, many ways, but unless you insist on testing the limits of grip on [i]every[/i] flat corner, I'd not describe it as playful for pootling.

I'm fine with this because I get my bikes for the good bits, not the transit to the good bits.

I like my Shan GT, as 29ers go it's good fun. I've also had a few rides on my mates Stanton Sherpa and that feels like a big wheeled BMX.

[img] [/img]

So, OP, what did you get?

What did you think of it? I really like the look of it - the only thing against it is what seems like a fairly slack seat angle (I know it's steeper than the old one but my Zero AM is at 74 deg before sag). Any thoughts on the pedalling position, especially when climbing?

On the whole great fun. Absolute hoot on steep loamy woodsy stuff. Fast but a bit, erm, beefy, over the rocks. Possibly the fastest runs I've done on our local trailcentrey runs.

Uphill it felt a bit stately - very well mannered but rather sluggish. Then I worked out the wheels/tyres were over a kilo heavier than my 26" Rocket wheels. Change that and it'd be fine (I reckon I could build identical spec 27.5 ones for a 250g weight penalty for the pair) I didn't try anything mega tech uphill, but it certainly felt like I was sat in the right place on the bike and wasn't fighting front end lift at any point. Also bear in mind that dropper posts tend to be more inline than old-skool rigid posts, so a hair slacker on the SA is compensated for by the saddle being naturally further forward on the post.

I'm almost certainly going down this route. Just pissed off that Cy has already sold out of the blue mediums!

I've also had a few rides on my mates Stanton Sherpa and that feels like a big wheeled BMX.

Bird Zero TR? 650B, light(ish), modern geo.

Also a revised Soul rumoured to be coming along soon in a similar vein to the new Bfe.

I don't think there are that many 'playful' 29ers about yet that aren't more endyooro focused and therefore a bit porky.

I find the extra weight of steel a bit annoying to be honest and am looking at Allloy frames
SC Chameleon or Kona Honzo for me I think

Running a singular at the mo and it is not playful

How about the new Stanton Switch9er,looks like its built for fun :
[img] [/img]

New Soul rumoured to be out soonish...

I've had a few 29ers that marketing and reviewers describe as 'playful', as per your requirements. Very few have reached and exceed my expectations.
1. Stooge- Lovely bike. Despite being rigid (and fairly heavy), I found it super engaging and it egged you on. With the Mk3 now accepting sus forks, it's almost spot on.
2. Canfiled YelliScreamy Mk1- Had all the right angles and was the first 29er I really got on with. It really showed me that wheel size is just a number and geometry is key. At really fast speeds it could feeling twitchy, but I put this down to Mk1 geometry.
3. Whyte 529- Budget frame, but has all the right angles. It's very competent on the trails, especially when pressing on. It's definitley a grower and isn't fantastic at skate park type rides.

Biggest disappointments?
1. Chumba HX2- just felt wrong and didn't have playful geometry. Really hard work to get it to 'move'.
2. Zealous Division Mk2- Disaster. It was great fun down the skate park and few jumps, but proper trails and singletrack it was awful. I think the wheelbase was too short so it felt scary almost..

I have a SS Titus Fireline and a Payoff geared. Titus is my go to bike, mainly because it's SS and is lovely to ride. I'm 6ft and ride 20". I find it playful and chuckable. I like the payoff also it has similar characteristics but heavier. I used to ride a Kona Unit that was a a great ride. Love the Kona geometry. I imagine a Honzo would fit the bill also. I had an 18" Packwood but found it a little sluggish. May be due to it being an 18".

I had a Solaris Mk2 until recently, and tried both wheelsizes in it, but didn’t really gel with it (for similar reasons to yourself). A friend rode it with plus wheels in there and really liked it - horses for courses I guess. I think I made the mistake of riding a Mk1 Solaris for half a day (which I really liked) and then buying a Mk2 frame, as I thought it would be better.

My wife has just got a Mk1 Sherpa, and as it fits me, I’ve taken for a couple of short rides - just to check the brakes work etc;) The parts on there are the same as the Solaris in 29 format, but I much prefer it to the Solaris - to me it feels like it has the springiness that the Mk2 Solaris seemed to lack. Although the geometry is only slightly different, to me it feels a more confident handling package. My wife has independently come to same conclusion, and she’s definitely more confident on the Stanton (& she rode the Solaris far more than me).

We ride in the Peak a lot (lived 5 mins away from Cannings & Blacka Moor for 20 years), so very familiar with trails you’re riding. I’d strongly recommend contacting the fellas at Stanton, as I’ve heard they’re really helpful - so may be able to fix you up with a demo. If they don’t have a demo bike, drop me a line and I’ll see if my wife would mind letting you have a quick go on her Stanton (new ‘precious bike’ syndrome at the moment though, so can’t guarantee:))

Edit: she managed to bin it in Cannings on Monday, so I’ve got to sort out the bent mech hanger first...Tut!

I just got off my 20" BMX.
Thanks for the lols. Especially you Bungel.

I reckon if I actually went and rode a BMX i'd realise the error in my statement. All I meant was the Sherpa is a playful fun bike. irrespective of wheel size.

I did a review of the Solaris, covering both 29 and 650b wheels and the discrepancy in "playfulnes"...
http://unduro.co.uk/mtb/review-cotic-solaris/

This thread again just highlights just how different we all are... Fun/Playful/(insert marketing word here) bikes might be exactly that to one person, and a dogs dinner to another. I've ridden a LOT of the bikes listed so far on this thread, probably the vast majority to be fair, and there's only a small handful listed that I'd own or consider owning. That's not to say that the others aren't good bikes, but they don't suit my requirements of fun.

The one I've not yet ridden that I really want to is the Last Fastforward. Looks awesome, though I suspect it might be a bit of a bruiser! Looks like it would be fun though.

The NS Eccentric Cromo would interest me too if the stays were just a little longer (430-440mm seems to be the sweetspot), I've tried a few 29ers with 420mm stays and they've all felt too twitchy at speed for my liking.

I've tried the Stooge, totally didn't get it! Felt like an accident waiting to happen to me. Likewise the Canfield Yelli Screamy & Nimble 9's I've tried (both MK1 versions though), all felt short and steep and like they were trying to be a big wheeled BMX... Which is EXACTLY what I don't want!

Had a Kona Taro briefly (ally version of the Honzo). It too felt short and relatively steep, the box section back end made it incredibly unforgiving too! It didn't last long... The Zealous Division also comes into this category, feels fun for a few minutes, but it's crazy stiff and unforgiving to ride.

The Stanton Sherpa has a lovely ride quality to it, but it just doesn't fit me that well. I want the reach of the 19", with the 17" seat tube, and about 15-20mm lower BB height for my own personal preferences. Unlike a lot of newer steel bikes it definitely has that lovely lively ride to it though. The same can't be said about the Cotic Solaris sadly, which feels dead as a doornail! That and I don't know how Cotic measure their geometry, cos I've measured 2 or 3 Solaris' now and the head angle is always steeper than stated by Cotic and the seat angle is always slacker... Go figure!

As for the Shan GT? A beauty no doubt, geometry is close to spot on for me (albeit according to PP I'm a Large not a medium!), price is a little high for what it is but not extortionate, but it's a hefty beast for sure at 2.8kg for the medium frame! The Large I'd need is gonna be nigh on 3kg, when my full sus frame is only 0.5kg heavier... Starts to defeat the object of a HT for me if they're that weighty.

As Cokie pointed out above, the Whyte 529/629's are awesome bits of kit, an underrated "budget" bike for sure. The geometry is spot on, the frame is ally but fits perfectly in the "not too stiff or harsh" bracket, weight is sub 2kg frame only. What's not to like...? Well they don't come frame only, though to be fair, the new 629 is a pretty good spec, just needs a dropper post to make it pretty decent (and the frame has stealth routing).

Not strictly a 29er (though I believe 29x2.3 fit ok front and back), but should be borrowing a new 2018 Whyte 909 for a couple of days either this weekend or next, geometry looks very good (BB height looks crazy low mind!), can't wait to give it a razz!

The NS Eccentric Cromo would interest me too if the stays were just a little longer (430-440mm seems to be the sweetspot), I've tried a few 29ers with 420mm stays and they've all felt too twitchy at speed for my liking.

Scratch that... I’ve just caved in and ordered one! So I guess we’ll find out soon enough what it’s like...

cokie - Member

2. Zealous Division Mk2- Disaster. It was great fun down the skate park and few jumps, but proper trails and singletrack it was awful. I think the wheelbase was too short so it felt scary almost.

How tall are you and what size were you riding? I'm 5'11, ride a large and my experiences are pretty much the exact opposite of what you've described. I raced the bike throughout the SES last year down some pretty nuts trails and battled for the overall, none of which could be done on a bike that's terrifying on singletrack. The bike was extremely stable but also easy to manoeuvre - I'm playful rider who like to hop pretty much everything.

Been eyeing up that NS eccentric on CRC, the only thign that's stopping me is that it's boost (or whatever 148mm is) and my current frame is 135mm x 10 and I cant be arsed/afford to buy new wheels.

That and I don't know how Cotic measure their geometry, cos I've measured 2 or 3 Solaris' now and the head angle is always steeper than stated by Cotic and the seat angle is always slacker... Go figure!

@mboy

Hi Mark. Hope all is well.

Cotic usually quote (or did on my original Solaris) the HA when sagged (25%) so static should be slacker not steeper! That is how mine has worked out too according to an angle app anyway.

How far out did the ones you measure fall?

Out of interest, why specify a 29er, when you're after "playful"? Im not saying a 29er cant be playful, but to me playful means a combination of agility and grip. Smaller wheels often result in quicker changes of pace and direction and fewer engineering trade offs in terms of frame design for things like wheelbase and chain stay length.

Mboy - have you had a leg over the 2018 905? Thoughts?.

Mboy - have you had a leg over the 2018 905? Thoughts?.

Leg over? Yes... Ridden? Not yet. Hopefully I’ve got a 2018 909 coming my way next weekend for a demo, but I came off my road bike pretty badly last night and I’m battered and bruised somewhat, so hoping I’ll be ok in time to ride it!

@mboy

Hi Mark. Hope all is well.

Cotic usually quote (or did on my original Solaris) the HA when sagged (25%) so static should be slacker not steeper! That is how mine has worked out too according to an angle app anyway.

How far out did the ones you measure fall?

Cheers mate, bit battered and bruised (see above) but I’ll mend soon enough...

The two I’ve measured myself, with an accurate angle measuring gauge have both been Mk1 Solaris... The one had a 100mm Reba, Static HA 70.5 and static SA 71.5. The other had a 120mm Reba and had static HA 69.5 and static SA 70.5. So as you can imagine, at 20-25% sag, these numbers will be about a degree steeper again. In each case the HA is quite a bit steeper than ideal, and the SA a bit slack too.

Even with the 100mm fork on the BB height was worthy of a step ladder IMO. With the 120 on the static BB height was over 330mm! My Whyte 29C by contrast has a 305mm static BB height.

Out of interest, why specify a 29er, when you're after "playful"?

I think it all goes back to my first post on this topic... Define “playful”... This will be different things to different people!

gwurk - Member

I just got off my 20" BMX.

As most of my trail riding is messing about in local woods etc - I don't find 29ers playful in the slightest - I'm quite frankly sick of them - I've been riding them for 5 years now - I don't feel stable in the air - I don't find they manual easily - which I guess would be my definition of playful - I think 700c is best for gravel/road - Yes they are faster overall which is probably why alot of enduro bikes are going 29er - But for messing about - Trail riding under say 20 miles - stopping and redoing fun parts of trails - getting air etc wagon wheels are not playful IMO - Efficient and practical yes and modern geometry has made them more playful but relatively their still ungainly.

Thanks Mark (mboy) First up, hope you get well soon!

Really interesting. I've had my Solaris at 100mm and 120mm travel. The latter does make the BB height a little more than ideal. Although with 120mm forks the HA is measuring about 68.5.

But in line with what you rightly say:

Define “playful”... This will be different things to different people!

I really enjoy playing around on my KM Ops which is very steep in the HA (although not as much as advertised but I put that down to the Ops running a 100mm travel fork on the complete build rather than the rigid one on the frameset only)

I think it depends on how steep your local woods are. Probably there is an equation linking the steepness of your local woods with the steepness of your head angle, in a negative kind of way.

I think it depends on how steep your local woods are. Probably there is an equation linking the steepness of your local woods with the steepness of your head angle, in a negative kind of way.

I have two very different local spots, both about 10 minutes' ride from my house, which are where 90% of my hardtail riding happens. The steep one was great when the bike had a 64 deg head angle and 55mm BB drop (that's with 27.5 wheels, so like a 74mm BB drop on a 29) but it only worked on the flatter location (which isn't flat, it's classic woodland singletrack) when going at absolute full tilt with an almost forwards riding position.

The bike is now 1.5 deg steeper and 10mm higher and is far more fun on the flatter trails but still fine on the steep ones. My previous bike was over a degree steeper than that, shorter and 40mm higher and it felt somewhat sketchy on the steeps.[list]