[Closed] Pikes over damped.on compression and under damped on rebound?

Could be the blocked negative air spring transfer port. Seems to be a common problem. Try pumping them up to 150psi, bounce on them a few times, then let all the air out, and reinflate, stopping at 50psi and slowly compressing them a few times before continueing to fill to normal pressure.

How many psi do you have in them?

About 80psi. For my weight it says 75-85 on the leg.

I've also removed two bottomless tokens so it only has 1 now. Previous rider had 3 in there.

The rebound should be able to go very slow at that pressure, so something is wrong.

Are they topping out despite the rebound being wound almost all the way on (knocking at full extension), also if you hold the wheel down and pull up on the bars do they extend?

Thanks for confirming. What's my options to sort it then folks?

Always used to use tf-tuned but that was 10 years ago...

Who's good?

Any damper. Upgrades I could just buy and bolt in myself?

First thing is to figure out whats wrong with them, alternatively just send them to tf tuned.

Are they due a service anyway?

No idea if they are due a service. Bought them used from the classifieds here

No top out, and no extension when you pull in the bars. Presume you ate thinking about the negative air spring equalising issue that I've read about. Don't think it's the air spring, it's the damper causing it I think.

Okay, send your fork into TF tuned - ask for either the FAST revalve or the FAST Revalve + High Speed and Low Speed adjuster. They will custom shim the fork for you and revalve the porting.

It is well known that the rebound is shonky on the Pike and this causes the fork to spike - that is likely to be what you are feeling.

When I did it, it resulted in a considerable improvement in feel, support and outright grip - that I have only just come to really appreciate. I've never had a front end contact patch that I know exactly what is going on before and have complete trust in.

Here is my review

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/fast-damper-tune-mini-review

I'd actually rate it even more highly now, than back then. Don't be put off by my racey tune - you can ask for something a bit milder.

The cost of the damper upgrade includes the 90 quid service from TF Tuned - so your fork will come back working like new as well.

[quote=Tom_W1987 ]Okay, send your fork into TF tuned - ask for either the FAST revalve or the FAST Revalve + High Speed and Low Speed adjuster. They will custom shim the fork for you and revalve the porting.
It is well known that the rebound is shonky on the Pike and this causes the fork to spike - that is likely to be what you are feeling.
When I did it, it resulted in a considerable improvement in feel, support and outright grip - that I have only just come to really appreciate. I've never had a front end contact patch, that I know exactly what is going on before and have complete trust in.

best sit down [url= http://www.tftuned.com/service/81-fast-tuning-forks ]Price list [/url]

Considering that it includes the service cost as well, I don't think the price is that bad if you are unhappy with the fork.

The 225 quid modification is so extensive that there isn't much left of the original damper....the external assembly, the piston rod and the bladder being about all is left.

For me, it's been an improvement in safety as well - the front end of my bike is so predictable that I haven't had a single wash out - feeling very very at home on my bike right now. 🙂

Whilst your at it, ask them to fit the PUSH seals - both my dads Lyriks and my Pike were at 0 hour service - the PUSH seals feel brand new - the SKF seals became very very sticky after 30 hours of riding.

Sod paying £300 for a service and new damper internals. I don't really want more adjustment, just want the current ones to work in a use able range

Its not 300 is it - 225 includes the cost of the service.

Seeing as you don't want the extra adjustment - in that case, get the 160 quid revalve + service. 70 pounds extra for custom pistons and shim stack configerations so that the compression range is right for your tastes and if it's not - they'll even revalve it for free if you send it back within 30 days!

Jesus, do people read? If you're such a good rider as to be complaining about compression tunes - then to have people who know what they are doing get it right for you - costs. It's that simple - engineers and technicians aren't minimum wage monkeys. If you want something right - expect to pay for it - off the shelf stuff is never perfect unless you're the marketing departments idea of an average rider.

Totally different mindset in the motorbike world, instead of splashing hundreds if not thousands on bling forks people just tend get older/stock forks reshimmed as it's invariably better than purchasing some off the shelf gold fork.

However, if you think you can do the work yourself - the Adreani group in Italy sell a drop in Ohlins piston and shim kit. It's almost as much as the FAST/TF Tuned one and won't be as accurate for your weight - so I'd suggest looking at the shim sizes/thickness and buying some shims online and playing around with them - you will still need the Ohlins pistons though as the Rock Shox ones have so much flow that a reshim will make jack all difference. Trial by error will probably cost you 50 hours of riding and dissasembling/rebuilding the fork.

I find them overdamped because I weigh nowt, so I have the compression wound completely off. But the rebound seems fine and I have barely any less pressure than you. So something ain't right

I thought that was on top of the service price. £160 is a lot more what I was thinking. Will have another read, cheers for that

They're not hugely overdamped unless you weigh 120 lbs - they just spike - mine are even more heavily damped than they were before - yet I get a lot lot less harsh feedback through the bars.

Nope, it's not ontop of the service price.

Nah, they're overdamped, for me. I've switched over to some 36s which have a base range that works better for me, but if I was keeping the Pikes I'd have changed for a thinner oil too see what that did. They're a wee bit spiky too mind.

Before you go wild $$ on the service

have you tried tokens and less pressure?

theres also a mod you can do which only requites some circlip pliers and some float fluid....

If its the solo air version anyway, you can open up the lower air chamber, clean out the grease and replace with float fluid, make sit much smoother

theres also a mod you can do which only requites some circlip pliers and some float fluid....

Go on....

But I'd say you should be servicing them once a year, unless you like throwing forks out or you can do it yourself.

Tom you're making this thread a bit heated matey, I'm asking for advice not an argument.

My forks are clearly not working right as the rebound isn't a useful range.

I'm wandering if paying for this upgraded damping internals will necessarily fix the fault. Will tf-tuned find a fault first if there is one?

I used them ten years ago to PUSH tune a vanilla rc and the result was brilliant. Have had a friend use them recently and got a really poor service from them so I'm a bit wary.

I'm taking it the 225 option means I wouldn't bother with bottomless tokens anymore as I can wind the high speed.compression up instead?

Yeah they will find the fault as well - you could ask them to do that first before going ahead with the upgrade.

I dropped from 2 bottomless tokens to 1 when I did the full upgrade, but I don't want to say that you could.

Cool cheers for that. Will probably send them in for a fault find but thinking about it like the idea of fast and slow speed compression adjustment.

Is there a completely new top cap then?

Go on....

The chamber (-ve chamber?) with the wavy washer in, normally has 5cc of grease in it
open it up by the circlip-snap ring on diagram-(and depressing the tab on the seal head with a screwdriver at the same time)

clean that out and replace with 5ml of float fluid
this diagram is a solo air reba, but, its the same deal

[img] [/img]

port no longer gets clogged up and it handles bigger, fatser hits smoother, not as nice as my old rc3tis but still better than stock

Yup, totally new top cap assembly, totally new compression rod, new basically everything....the cartridge is gutted.

Ill take a picture of all the old parts you get back....this weekend.

If you don't know their history then I'd get them serviced anyway. I (and thousands of other riders) really rate the Charger damper on the Pike - when it's working properly it's bloody good. If you're outside the main target audience (weight/style/speed etc) then a custom tune may be required.

To add ask them to install the 2016 seal head....that massively improves reliability. It stops the damper from pissing oil under hard bending forces.

Don't think I'm outside the main audience at all. I'm a slightly overweight bloke in his 30s who likes to ride trail centres and the peak District plus a week in France every other year. Raced a bit of DH a decade ago but I'm far from Gee Atherton. I did beat Tracey Moseleys time on a race in France one though which was my claim to fame lol.

I reckon I'm going to get them diagnosed then go from there.

Can anyone else restore my faith in TF-Tuned after my friends bad experience last year?

Thanks again Tom. Think you've sold me on this upgrade, need to somehow get the permission slip stamped by the wife now lol

TF Tuned are generally great, we had an issue once - they came back with a leaking damper but the old man got an MRP Ramp Control unit thrown in for free (120 quid).

They're brilliant - but like everywhere they occassionally get something wrong. At least when they do, they own up to it and say sorry. They also found some issues with his Monarch (lumps on the inside of the air can) that Fishers failed to spot after he complained of notchiness - which they promptly removed.

They're a good bunch of people.

Also if you do get the low/high speed adjusters - just remember that there will now be 24 clicks of each based around an existing tune that is already very close for you. So each click is ery subtle in car park bounce tests - but becomes much more apparent when you ride it.

I had the pefect test run by taking them to Antur Stiniog for their first day out - where I could do loads of runs on what was basically one gigantic rock garden. Read my review before you purchase them, there is also a review over at Enduro mag.

Yeh I always highly rated them ten years ago. Only got back into riding a couple of years ago and recommended them to my mate who got a bum deal from them. To be fair they did sort it out but it was the hassle. I felt really bad on my recommendation after that.

Right decision made, £225 fast upgrade it is. Is the top cap pink anodised like the ones on Google images?

You can choose between purple and black! I like the purple as it's blinger but the black one is definately stealthier and people won't notice than you're a bling tart.

Mine went from great to crap in a very short space of time. I'd somehow managed to blow the innards apart, much to the amusement of the mechanic. A regular £40 service sorted them. I know you've decided to spend a lot more than that and go to one of the big suspension guys but i'd suggest [i]just[/i] a service first. You may be very happy with the performance once working properly (and you'll probably stick another token in).

Most of the folk i know who spend big on suspension upgrades don't ride fast or hard enough to warrant the extra cost - but it's cool to talk about having it done (don't know you Tom so this doesn't apply to you).

Blimey. The first thing I'd do with a set of unknown forks is pull them apart and service them. Does the quasi-lockout work on yours btw?

Seriously, I dismantled mine, changed the seal-head (common problem with earlier Pikes, if the lockout thing has no effect it's quite possibly this) bled the charger damper after changing the fluid and put them back together and I'm not exactly a pro level mechanic. There are some excellent how to instructions out there if you google for them.

I'm sure the TFT upgrade is good, but it's not like the standard Pike is viewed by most people as a grossly inadequate fork. And there's always the thing where people compare a new part with one that's basically failed and, surprise, surprise, the new one works much better.

Anyway, I'd get the Pikes working properly as intended and then decide whether you need to spend a load more money upgrading them.

ps: I've used TFT in the past and they've been great for me. Nothing against them, I'm just unconvinced that 1. you wouldn't be able to do a service yourself 2. that when the forks are working as RS intended, you'll still feel you need to upgrade them. Anyway, I'm sure they'll do a good job if you do go that way.

If you aren't sure if something new to you is working right, it's not that easy to be sure you've fixed it when you service it - that's where experience counts. I totally agree that for 90%+ of riders the stock Pike's damping is excellent.

Im not sure that spending 70 to 120 extra quid on a 700 quid fork and likely 2.5 grand bike is "spending big". People spend more on tires - doesnt matter if youre fast enough to warrant it - a properly tuned fork will make beginners more comfortable as well.

The OP might know how to bleed the cartridge but I doubt hell have the expertise to recognize faulty parts and resize bushings.

A regular 40 quid service sounds an awful lot like a simple bleed and lower oil change....im not sure that a technician being suprised by a blown charger damper would instill confidence in me....they arent exactly the most reliable of dampers due to the old seal head.

By all means think about how much youre spending OP - but at the very minimum go with a decent service - not some bike shop mechanics idea of one.

If you aren't sure if something new to you is working right, it's not that easy to be sure you've fixed it when you service it - that's where experience counts. I totally agree that for 90%+ of riders the stock Pike's damping is excellent.

You could, of course, compare to a known, working example of the component, if you know someone else who runs one. Anyway, just generally, nothing on a pushbike is exactly rocket science and, at least if you do the work yourself, you know it's been done properly assuming you're reasonably practical. And if you hit something you're not sure of and can't diagnose or fix, you've spent relatively little and can always send it off to the experts anyway.

Anyway, there's no 'right answer', just alternative solutions. 🙂

Doesnt a full service kit cost about 40 quid to begin with?

Where abouts in the UK are you?.

Sounds like the damper is probably low on fluid or has ingested a load of air into it. Pretty common on a Pike before the changes for the current model year. It will also benefit from a new seal head on the air side as this solves the issues with air escaping past the negative seal head into the lower leg high then pressurises the lower leg.

......the revised seal head is on the damper side. Is there a new one on the air side as well?

......the revised seal head is on the damper side. Is there a new one on the air side as well?

There is a revised seal head for both sides, both came out at the same time.

Tom_W1987

Im not sure that spending 70 to 120 extra quid on a 700 quid fork and likely 2.5 grand bike is "spending big". People spend more on tires - doesnt matter if youre fast enough to warrant it - [b]a properly tuned fork will make beginners more comfortable as well.[/b]

That right there has just made my mind up to get my pikes sent off (unfortunately it'll be 2 sets lol), I'd never thought of it that way but it makes sense.

Tom, sorry to jump on someones thread but would you rate the FAST revalve or the FAST Revalve + High Speed and Low Speed adjuster over the Ohlins piston and shim kit?

Thanks

Derek

That right there has just made my mind up to get my pikes sent off (unfortunately it'll be 2 sets lol), I'd never thought of it that way but it makes sense.

Seriously, there's nothing about a standard Pike in good condition that's going to hold beginners back at all. Spend the money if you want, but honestly, it's a really good fork in stock trim as long as it's working properly.

Sorry if that sounds negative, but it doesn't make much sense to me. I'm just a but bemused by it all.

Yep a standard pike is very good as long as it's working properly and the rider isn't way outside the weight range on the fork. A beginner is going to get very little out of buying bling damping cartridges

BadlyWiredDog, I agree, but both are due a service (one pair I've had since new and the other I bought 2nd hand), so it makes sense to get any upgrades done while they're in for a service.

BadlyWiredDog, I agree, but both are due a service (one pair I've had since new and the other I bought 2nd hand), so it makes sense to get any upgrades done while they're in for a service.

Just have the 2016 upgrades fitted with a full service. Pick who services them carefully as some will just fit the new damper seal head and then just replace o-rings with original sized o-rings and not always upgrade the negative seal head. This can still lead to problems with the air spring side bleeding air into the lower leg leading to harshness.

Love the fact I'm being referred to as a beginner.

Agree with the comments about getting it working properly but, by the time I've paid someone to do it I'm considering including the upgrade too at the same time.

I'd like to do it myself but as has been pointed out its £40 for new seals etc first and it's finding the time. I'm currently typing whilst entertaining my 6mnth old daughter plus am back at work Monday.

I wouldn't bother if you are a beginner unless you are either A) >200lb B) <140lb - it's a lot to spend. If you are getting serviced and decide you want it for whatever reason, again, as a beginner just get the revalve. The high speed adjustment is icing on the cake - for me, I find that it mostly effects how of the high speed stuff you feel through your hands. Really subtle fine tuning, but at the extreme ends of either closed or open it would either feel way to harsh or felt like it was collapsing in rock gardens - adjustments around the base setting that is roughly correct for you are much finer.

I will reiterate though - that as a more experienced rider it has given me a margin of safety in terms of the trade off between feel and traction that I've never had before. But I'm sensitive to fork set up, on the other hand my brother is a much faster rider than me and sets his bikes up awfully with dead slow rebound for hucking off big drops and can somehow ride them without being thrown off. Sometimes a better rider can ride round these things - I can't ride his settings at all and was nearly bucked over the front by a packing down rear shock on the chicksands dual. My point being, we are all different, some people no matter their skill are more sensitive to these things than others and if there is something specific you have an issue with then a revalve can sort it.

The OP is a faster more experienced rider, if it wasn't for the fact that the fork was potentially borked then I'd thoroughly recommend it to him. As it is, I think that it is a toss up for the OP.

There, balanced enough? Think about what you want from your fork and make an informed decision.

Rick Draper, I'm Nottinghamshire. Why do you ask?

Derek, I can't comment on the Ohlins piston kit - it seems harder to get hold of though.

My first point of call if they aren't right on the first ride would be to contact the seller to try and sort something out

A regular 40 quid service sounds an awful lot like a simple bleed and lower oil change....im not sure that a technician being suprised by a blown charger damper would instill confidence in me

Pretty much i guess. The guy who fixed them is a top guy and really knows his stuff. He's done plenty of Pikes but the Charge damper wasn't blown like you think - [b]all[/b] internals were blew apart and fell out in bits. Like i say he's not come across that before. I seem to have a history of doing weird things to suspension. When i sent my old coil shock off to TF they reported back that i'd somehow managed to bend the shaft and i'd need a new one - they'd never saw that before either (and i think they know their stuff too).

Well, if you know a guy who can do a good service for 40 quid then give the OP his details!

God knows how you did that though Euro, did you lawn dart the front of a double?

Rick Draper, I'm Nottinghamshire. Why do you ask?

Drop me a email. Email is in my profile.

Love the fact I'm being referred to as a beginner.

It's because in your earlier post where you said you'd had your mind made up, line you high-lighted as being decisive was: - [b]'a properly tuned fork will make beginners more comfortable as well'[/b]

Which makes it sound as if you're a beginner, no? Anyway, glad it's brightened up your day 🙂

Not me who hilghted anything of the sort matey. If you want to see what standard I am look at the Avalanche Cup Oz En Oisons round from 2006 😉

Just had a look back through and can't find what you are on about. Anyway, far from a beginner but as I said earlier I'm no Gees Atherton either. Probably don't need the upgrade but whilst I'm paying £90 for a service it's worth considering on top.

I love a man who talks a good game

Honestly, you've bought a second hand set of Pikes, they don't seem to be working properly and no-one has suggested going after the seller with pitchforks and flaming torches?

Standards are slipping.

I've emailed the seller saying do you have the receipt so I can maybe try warranty?

Prepare to wait 4-5 weeks for them to come back from Fishers - and they won't put the updated internals in so they'll blow again a few months down the line.

Yeh I was thinking that, seller has already agreed to send them off for warranty in the last couole of minutes but I reckon Tom should be on commission for Fast Suspension as I'm really fancying this upgrade now anyway

Your choice Chilled, they could come back in 2 weeks but my experience with them was atrocious to say the least! If you don't mind having time off riding for a bit or have a second bike - do the warranty job and then decide on the upgrade. I mean it's free! Nothing to lose, except riding time and sweet sweet escape from the baby! 😛

I don't have a second bike and it's hard enough getting rides in these days as it is....

....I was thinking of setting up my own website to compete with the idiots over at dirt though. 😆

http://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspension/avalanche-vs-fast-suspension-pike-1024960.html

Huh, a lot of the guys on here ended up with pretty similar settings to me 🙂

10 from fully open clicks of low speed, 4 clicks from fully open of high speed compression. So I'm not a bat shit insane crazy scientist type like some of my mates think I am, others have independantly found the same sweet spot 🙂

In regards to the latter two posters - it looks like you might want to make sure they specify the updated seals in the air side as well though. I haven't had any issues from TF tuned on the airside, at all. One of them also thinks that burping the fork screwed up the damping, that is impossible due to the sealed cartridge design. With Pikes it's kind of a a design flaw anyway, moto forks have bleed valves to accomplish the same thing...as does the Mattoc.

Not me who hilghted anything of the sort matey. If you want to see what standard I am look at the Avalanche Cup Oz En Oisons round from 2006

Sorry, I confused you with someone else. Or you confused my comments about someone else as being about you maybe? Or someone else? Or there were sticks with wrong ends. I don't think it matters very much. I'm guessing from some googling that you're actually Rachel Atherton, in which case I apologise if anyone here mistook you for a beginner.

Oh yeah and if you really want to go full tart, if you hate airsprings or have had reliability issues on the airspring side - CRConception do a spring mod.

It's coming for Christmas - reviews will be posted my friends.

I'm guessing from some googling that you're actually Rachel Atherton

I must be using a different version of google!

[url= http://www.afroromance.com/profile?p=BGD3AQt4Zt--message_send=1 ]chilled76[/url]

😉

Chilled76

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/looking-for-that-magic-suspension-setting#post-8051080

Looks like this is the reaons why Rick is probably selling his FAST Lyriks - anyway, he won't find anything better and his idea of what the fork should feel like is wrong. Last inch of travel should be used only for potential over the bar incidents or landings to flat.

He'll get a shock if he moves to Fox's which are even less forgiving.

Nar I got them where I wanted in the end but have had a 36 on my Patrol since I bought it a few months back and the Lyrik has just been sat in its box ever since.

Booked in for the full FAST upgrade at tf-tumed. Thanks everyone for input, Tom especially for your detailed responses.

Cheers

First outing on the FAST upgraded ones today and I can honestly say they are the best forks I have ever ridden. Thanks again for the input Tom, really impressed with how supple they are but the damping manages to stop them diving.

Really controlled and confidence inspiring.