[Closed] Pike 454 to 2011 Revelations - upgrade?

I've done the same change, albeit on a Trance X rather than a Meta 5. I think you're bang on with your thoughts.

The Rev seems equally stiff to the Pike, but is a lot lighter
I'm a suspension tart, and I haven't felt the need to get the fork Push'd. I think all the 2011 ones come with the new rebound damper but worth confirming this, as it's the bit which makes the difference.

I also think the air spring works just as well as the coil did after the initial faff getting the pressures right.

[i]- 32mm lowers and 20mm bolt through so still stiff(?)[/i]
Apparently not from some post on here, plenty stiff but not as stiff as the Pikes.

[i]- Improved damping so no need to PUSH(?)[/i]
Shirely only if you buy the Team (blackbox) version, otheriwse it'll still be Motion control damped? Though having the RS forks PUSHed is supposed to be as good as BB damping.

[i]- Axle to crown is +15mm, still within Meta 55 spec but would slacken the bike slightly (good!) and raise the BB a few mm (help with clearance so not bad).[/i]
...and your question is caller?

[i]- Considerably lighter![/i]
T'is why I bought some, Pikes were overkill for my riding, Rev's were just what I wanted (mine were 1850g or so with 1.5 steerer and 20mm maxle).

Cheers.

Looking at the "Revelation RLT Ti Dual Air 150mm Maxle Lite 20mm" which claims to have motion control, so should be the new damping.

Plus 150 versus 140 so the extra 10mm would be nice...

z1ppy - Member
- Improved damping so no need to PUSH(?)
Shirely only if you buy the Team (blackbox) version, otheriwse it'll still be Motion control damped? Though having the RS forks PUSHed is supposed to be as good as BB damping.

Non-BB ones are still MoCo but with the DualFlow rebound damper.

gravity-slave - Member

Cheers.

Looking at the "Revelation RLT Ti Dual Air 150mm Maxle Lite 20mm" which claims to have motion control, so should be the new damping.

Actually the RLT Ti appears to have BlackBox, so you get both the rebound and the new compression damper too.

http://www.sram.com/rockshox/products/revelation-rlt-ti

...and your question is caller?

No question, just a statement that they are in spec according to Commencal before the "Only warrantied to 140mm" comments! (fire away....)

That's the job - dual flow rebound sounds like it does what Push does and allow faster return on repeated big hits?

ahhhhhh (to both)

I'm a heavy rider, both literally and metaphorically. I can vouch for the 2011 Revs being excellent in fast, rocky big hit territory. I am around 100kg and tend to hit things pretty hard; my Rev RLT Ti with 20mm axle have been excellent in this type of terrain.

Where I do really notice the flex of the chassis is in big landings. Coming in fast to a landing where there isn't the opportunity to perfectly transition the bike, I can really feel the front end splaying fowards. It's really disconcerting when it happens!

The Push tune on the Pike can make it feel really harsh until you get into precisely the kind of fast, big hit, rock terrain you're describing, at which point it does come alive. But it's still a heavy fork for the travel. On the other hand that burly chassis is much more stable on big landings.

That's the job - dual flow rebound sounds like it does what Push does and allow faster return on repeated big hits?

Yes, pretty much. Think Potato Alley flat out. I've got Pushed Pikes on one bike and 2011 Revs on another, and the Pikes are definitely sturdier and less plush on the smaller stuff than the Revs, but mostly the Revs are excellent and significantly lighter.

One thing to consider - if you increase your AC height, not only will you have a slacker head angle, but you'll also correspondingly slacken the seat angle and change the weight distribution on the bike.

That may or may not be an issue - on steep climbs you might find the front lifts more easily and generally the weight distribution on the bike will possibly shift rearwards. I run Pikes on a Pace RC405 - work well though the bike's designed for 130mm forks. When I put a Revelation on the front, it really did screw up the handling to a surprising degree.

It might not do that with a Meta 55 and even if it does, you may be able to compensate by lowering the bars, changing the seat position on the rails etc,or maybe spacing the forks down to 140mm, but if you're happy with the overall handling balance of the bike with Pikes, the Push tune works well on the flat out stuff, though I'd agree with geetee that it's not super plush on the smaller stuff.

I've got some pushed Pikes and also the older style Revs. What you can do, is replace the Pike's damper with the newer Blackbox damper. I did that with my Revs and it changed them so much. Its the best upgrade I've done, since converting my TALAS 36s to VANs. The blackbox rebound damper is only £70. Its easy to fit and alot cheaper than getting them Pushed and is just as good.

I've did exactly that change on my SC BLT2 just 2 weeks ago. Haven't noticed any less stiffness but then I don't really do drops and jumps.

I went for the RLT Ti dual position which does have the Blackbox motion control.

They are noticably plusher and lighter and work really well now I've worked out how to set them up. I reckon ignore static sag and just set them up to get about max travel on your biggest hits.

I went for the dual position as even with the Pikes I was struggling to keep the front end down on really steep climbs. Absolutely definitely worth the extra money (and the fact they are black) to make climbing easier, and it's just a 45 deg flick of the lever to change the travel

Potato Alley flat out is a really good example of where my current forks choke up. Death gripping the bottom section gets a bit sketchy as they pack out and go from relatively plush to virtually no control and it's just a case of 'force it'!

Good point about the seat angle. The saddle is currently right back on the rails so scope to move that forwards but I'm stood up/cranking or walking when it gets into steep wandery territory! It looks like the Revs have dual position to drop the front if I am on mega long climbs.

Lowering the bars would be a good tweak too. Regarding handling with Pikes, I'd also like to slacken the head angle a bit (I think the later ones are slacker). Did consider some bushes but the BB is already low and I catch the pedals quite a lot.

Quoted weights (with pinch of salt) are something like 2020g versus 1727g so sounds like 300g-ish saving and improved damping at the slight cost of some stiffness? Selling the Pikes would probably make it a more cost effective change than Pushing them, or at least close.

Lowering the bars would be a good tweak too. Regarding handling with Pikes, I'd also like to slacken the head angle a bit (I think the later ones are slacker). Did consider some bushes but the BB is already low and I catch the pedals quite a lot.

I've just fitted a -2? slacker headset to my Pace - hence lots of thinking about the effects on geometry of various fork options etc. Just fitted it along with a shorter stem and really pleased so far, so that might be an option, particularly if you have a zero-stack head tube with a 44mm internal diameter - there are two or three options for those now, but it's not impossible even with a conventional head tube.

I mentioned Potato Alley because I had exactly the same issues as you with standard Pikes, with the Pushed ones, everything's loads more composed, less drama, more control. Ditto with the 2011 Revelations.

IIRC the crown to axle dimension of the Revs is almost 20mm more than the Pikes so will give you about a 1 deg slacker head angle

IIRC the crown to axle dimension of the Revs is almost 20mm more than the Pikes so will give you about a 1 deg slacker head angle

Where did you get those figures from? Sram says they are the same [url= http://www.sram.com/_media/techdocs/MY2010%20Crown%20to%20Axle.pdf ]here[/url].

Where did you get those figures from? Sram says they are the same

My mistake. My new Revs are 150mm travel so are 10mm longer axle to crown than the Pikes. For some reason I had in my head that the Pikes were 209mm A to C, which would have been 19mm longer

Phil, if you do end up selling the pikes, I'd be interested.

Definately not as stiff and presumably not as strong, but does it matter, is the question. They're still far from flexy, they just don't quite have the same unshakable feel, I was aware of it when I first fitted them but soon stopped noticing. I can feel it when I switch from my Lyriks to the Revs, unsurprisingly, but it never feels like a problem.

Strength... Mine had an internal failure of the air tube but not due to hard use I don't think, just a "one of those things". They've been reasonably hard used and well crashed though and don't seem to have noticed.

I have had nonpushed pikes and pushed pikes, then moved to revelations with BBC damping. Tbh I did not notice any difference in stiffness but the BB damping is better than the push because not only do you get the high speed rebound performance but you don't lose the small bump you do with pushing the pikes. The bb damped revelations are superb and a full pound less than the pikes.

So a couple of people have commented on the Revs being flexier than the Pikes. I'm wondering if it's really flex or whether its just that the Revs are more active, moving a lot more but under control from the better damping, so possibly giving the impression of flex?

So a couple of people have commented on the Revs being flexier than the Pikes. I'm wondering if it's really flex or whether its just that the Revs are more active, moving a lot more but under control from the better damping, so possibly giving the impression of flex?

God only knows, but the extra weight is mostly in the chassis no, so it wouldn't be surprising if Pikes were sturdier and the place I notice it most is over rocky stuff where the Pikes seem to track better laterally, which has nothing to do with fork movement, if anything, a more supple fork would feel better in that situation, I think. In a way it's irrelevant as the Revs, 99.9 per-cent of the time are sturdy enough for me anyway.

of course Pikes are stiffer than Revs, just one look at the crowns will tell you that.. whether you'll notice it is another matter entirely.

RLT Ti Revelations are very good and lighter, Pushed Pikes also good (I've got a set, with a few extra mods 😀

Stiffness wise maybe a little more flex (only really noticable if your really picky or GNAR!) in the revs but they're 150mm and alot lighter.

Loco - do you sell either Push or Black box damping parts separately that'd fit a 2010 reba maxle? (forgotten the exact model as I de-stickered it straight out the box)

Hi no Push stuff is dealt with by tf, yes can supply BB MoCos and dual flow rebound parts, not that cheap though as RS aftermarket stuff is pricey

Just checked
Moco RRP £ 195.99
Rebound assm. RRP £88.99
However, they'll be a fair bit cheaper 😉

Bluddy hell! Could prob buy a new Reba for that.
thanks for the info tho.

<EDIT> hang on, is there anything in particular better about the performance of a Blackbox Moco cart? new rebound assembly is prob all I'd actually want.

Some great input to help the decision, thanks a lot. In fact, reading this is doesn't sound like much of a decision, Revs getting good reviews.

Currently looking at the RLT Ti 150mm with 20mm axle (non travel adjust, have never used the u-turn on my Pikes)

Checking the listed weights, they show about 470g saving. Just saved 650g off wheels, post, pedals and bash and the ride is transformed so currently thinking I can give up a bit of stiffness for the weight - on an average 2-3 hour ride I spend a lot more time climbing or flicking the bike around than battering into stuff! Plus you need a stiff fork when the damping has packed up and you are slamming into rocks!

Final decision - would white work on a black bike with white bars and bits ([url= ]PHOTO[/url]). Pond needs filling, lawn needs feeding to match new turf and bike has grown a log out of the BB. And yes, I know about the front tyre and valves not aligned!

Paul,
I'll let you know about the Pikes for sure.

that would look so much better if you fitted a black saddle and bars, got rid of the red componments and most of the stickers

GW, There is no real benefit of buying the BB Moco cart. Thats the one with the Ti tube which replaces the red plastic tube in the MoCO unit. What you want is the BB Rebound damper. Its that that makes the differences. I've converted mine for £70. Much better performance, allows so much more oil to flow over fast repeatative hits. Search Mtbr there is loads of info about upgrading to BB rebound. Part No I got was: RockShox Rebound Damper/Seal Head Assembly B (R5397020) Got mine from ebay or try Loco.

Hi, Could anyone show me a picture of the rebound damper?

[url= http://www.forksparts.com/achat/index.php?catid=150 ]Anyone used these guys for upgrades?[/url]

iang2jones - Thanks. That's what I was thinking too.

Be interesting to know if http://www.forksparts.com/achat/produit_details.php?id=194&langue=en would fit into my 09 pikes to convert solo to dual air.

Here is the ebay link for the BB damper. Its for a 150mm rev, but does fit older Revs and should fits Pikes.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RockShox-Rebound-Damper-Seal-Head-Assembly-B-R5397020-/110645707652?pt=UK_sportsleisure_cycling_bikeparts_SR&hash=item19c2ff8384

There is a shorter 120mm damper available which has a different part number.

The MTBR link shows a picture the BB rebound damper rod vs std damper.
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=669600

Ace, cheers for the BB rebound damper links etc. I'm going to stick one in a Coil U-Turn Sektor and see what happens. Technically it shouldn't work very well as the Sektor incorporates a negative spring in its rebound damper assembly, but I'm wondering if all you'd really lose is a bit of car park plushness on the initial movement. If it's unuseable like that, I'll look at creating some sort of Frankendamper with the dual flow from the black box and the negative spring from the Sektor.

Wish me luck 😉

Hope it works BadlyWiredDog. I suspect coil Sektors with BB damper will be great forks. My BB revs are the coil u-turns and are every bit as good as my Pushed Pike Airs, just a little bit less stiff.

I think Dual Flow Sektors would rock - light-ish 150mm coil fork with 20mm Maxle, U-Turn and decent high speed damping. All sounds good to me. Plan C might be to stick a surplus Pike Coil U-Turn in the Sektor and have a slightly lighter than a Pike 140mm fork with BB damper... but will see what happens with Plans A and B first...

I'm guessing that most RS parts are interchangable as long as the lowers diameter & thread are similar.

Phil, yep that'll look good - Rich Palmer's meta 5 is black with white forks and looks very nice.

I'm guessing that most RS parts are interchangable as long as the lowers diameter & thread are similar.

Mostly I think, with a few exceptions - I just swapped the inners from a set of Pike Air U-Turns into the chassis of my Pike Coil U-Turns for example, but there are a few things that won't work. There's a difference between air and coil air u-turn because the insides of the fork tubes on coil or u-turn forks isn't - supposedly - smooth enough for the seals of an air set-up to work with. And obviously, if you put 140mm coils in a 150mm chassis, you'll only get a 140mm fork, albeit, I guess, with more overlap between stanchions and lowers. But mostly it'll work ime.

Just in case anyone's interested, I've just stuck a Black Box rebound damper assembly in a Sektor Coil U-Turn fork - the original Sektor damper does, as people have told me, include a negative spring which sits kebab-style on the damper rod. It's a pretty feeble spring, to be honest and I wonder how much it actually achieves, maybe a little car park plush on the initial spring movement.

Anyway, after some thought, I popped it back onto the Black Box damper rod on the basis that it fitted okay and I can always take it off if things feel wrong, and screwed it all back together.

Haven't ridden it yet, so I have no idea what it'll do the fork in real life, but all being well, it should basically upgrade the high speed rebound so it copes better with repeated high speed hits - flat out through rockeries etc, which is where non Dual Flow RS forks tend to choke and kick around.

Will hopefully get out on the Pace tomorrow somewhere rocky and fast and will report back. If it works, then it's a 70-quid upgrade to a fork that only cost me around £300 that should give it a bit more high speed control and make for a very nice trail fork.

I also have a spare Pike MoCo which I might bang on for the added flood gate adjustability, but I'm not sure it'll make any real performance difference.

Just in case anyone's wondering, the rebound damper transplant is a dead easy, 15-minute max job. Basically pop the lowers off, undo circlip with fork legs inverted to stop damper oil pissing out, slide out rebound damper assembly, lube o-rings on new damper assembly, slide back in carefully, reinstall circlip making sure it's fully seated, pop legs back on and add some lubricant to compensate for any you've lost in the process. Job's a good un.

BadlyWiredDog - Member

Just in case anyone's interested, I've just stuck a Black Box rebound damper assembly in a Sektor Coil U-Turn fork - the original Sektor damper does, as people have told me, include a negative spring which sits kebab-style on the damper rod. It's a pretty feeble spring, to be honest and I wonder how much it actually achieves, maybe a little car park plush on the initial spring movement.

Interested to hear how well this works on the trail. I thought that spring was more for a soft top out rather than being a negative spring in the air-fork sense.

Possibly you're right about the top out, I guess I'll find out tomorrow, but as I've transferred the spring, I'd expect it to feel similar to stock... Feels fine on a quick blast around the block and some high speed kerbs, like a normal Sektor in fact, which isn't any great surprise. Fwiw, my experience with standard Pike and Sektor is that mostly they're fine, but if you really gun it down something like Potato Ally in the Peak, the front end gets distinctly lairy. Hayfield side of Jacob's as well, that sort of thing.

In fact, it's actually a 'top-out spring' rather than a 'negative' one. That makes sense. I need to think harder...