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Hayter is exceptionally strong but has gotten a bit lost with his positioning in the peloton – change of scenery and hopefully some wins will get him back on track.
Ethan Hayter, yes.
Ineos also lost the very talented Leo Hayter who had a really bad patch with mental health issues and depression - he posted quite openly about it on his blog and social media after a long period of coming to terms with it. Hopefully he's on the mend now but it's another crack in the Ineos armour losing a rider like Leo.
I just can’t see it for a 60kg guy like Pidcock,
Guess what Jonas Vingegaard weighs... yes, 60kg. He'll never be competitive on GC either 🙂
where Ineos see/saw GC potential in him so pushed him that way
Have Sky/Ineos ever seen anything else? Do I remember Cav delivering water bottles and surfing wheels in sprint finales at the height of his powers in World Champion’s stripes?
Why can’t he just find a MTB team and solely concentrate on that? Nino schurter has made a pretty remarkable living out of just solely doing MTB, probably not GC wages at a top road team but a pretty penny all the same
And the way TP can just turn up and win means it pretty sure he could/should/would be world number one for a pretty long time
Probably about €2.5m difference between a top XC rider and a GC/ high end road team leader.
I’d like to see TP on a DH bike in the off-season. Just for the s&g.
Why can’t he just find a MTB team and solely concentrate on that? Nino schurter has made a pretty remarkable living out of just solely doing MTB, probably not GC wages at a top road team but a pretty penny all the same
I think between XC and cyclo-cross he'd do pretty well for himself and maybe give him a bit more fun. I'm sure he's thought of it more than once, but I guess something stops him.
His road problem is, if Pogi is racing, we'll he's P2, if Pogi ain't there he's got WvA turning up, or MvdP, or even Remco.
Sure on his best days he can play with them guys, but I think he needs to leave ineos to get back to his form as he's lost his punch he had from slimming down too much for GC stuff. I'd say a new team who see him as a Classics man would suit him better, or the XC one.
Seems strange that a rider who has won Strade Bianche, Amstel Gold and a tour stage up the Alpe is an understatement achiever according to some here. He's never going to be a Pog or Grand Tour rider and he's not going to be as prolific as MvDP or Wout but he has already won some decent races as well as World Cross champ, and MTB Olympics etc. Yes his problem is Pog but Pog is everyone's problem. He can beat the likes of Remco, Wout or MvDP with some luck and the right parcours.
Seems strange that a rider who has won Strade Bianche, Amstel Gold and a tour stage up the Alpe is an understatement achiever according to some here.
But for the salary he's on it's not a good enough return, he's won some big races but not followed those up with enough others. And whilst he's not a fully formed GC rider he's not willing to do the leg work and support a team leader. G & Froome both did it to learn the ropes, WvA does it, MvDP does it. All of them were/are significantly more prolific.
He's clearly not at the Pog, Rog, Vingo, Remco, WvA or MvDP level but I'm not sure he's even at the level below that. When Ineos brought him in it was that he would develop to be there and, bluntly, he hasn't. Whether that's his fault or their's is not clear but he's well down the pecking order in terms of road wins even in Ineos over the last few years.
TP isn't competing with Ving and Rog.... he's not a GC rider in the grand tours. He's lower top 10 at best .... maybe with the right combination of luck he's an outside bet for a Vuelta podium.
He's stated that he wants to focus on the road in the next few years. Problem 1=Pogacar turns up then you're racing for 2nd currently. Problem 2=MvDP, WvA and Remco are all insanely good too, what an era for the casual observer. Problem 3=Ineos are a sinking ship. Problem 4= G on his podcast reckons that Pidcock is surrounded by the wrong people.
A combination of problems 3 and 4 means that it's time to leave Ineos. Hard to see where he goes though? These rumours about Q36.5....if you're focussing on the road, then you'd be mad to swap Ineos for a team that haven't ridden a grand tour and have barely featured in the few monuments that they've been invited to.
As to why he's doing road..... what's the highest paid XC racer on? 100k? This forum has a hilarious obsession with Nino Schurter currently (he's one of my all time fav athletes fwiw!). Road salary, he's on what £2 million per year? Maybe more..... it's night and day.
Would Quickstep be a good fit? Have they got room?
Ineos appear to be a sinking ship.
Various rumours swirling that they won't exist at all in the next couple of years - although I suspect some of it is media dredging up all manner of speculation and asking any random cycling pundit (and in this case, washed up former manager who oversaw the Lance Years!) probing questions and potentially knitting the answers of 2 and 2 together to give 6¾...
A-A….Is Pidock tanned? This is all starting to look VERY familiar…
Why can’t he just find a MTB team and solely concentrate on that?
Money. He's paid - or overpaid if you see it like that - a top road rider's salary, which is massively more than any pro mtber earns.
I ikeep pointing out that he's won only five times on the road during his INEOS career and people say, but, but, but... he won a Tour stage, a classic or two, an Olympic gold medal and world champs on a mountain bike and that he keeps saying he wants to focus on the road, but the mountain bike thing s a bit like Lewis Hamilton turning up to a Le Man 24-race and wiping the floor with a bunch of guys who aren't quite at the same level, which is an exaggeration of course, but the general principle holds.
If you can be arsed to go back over previous interviews, he's always going to f'ocus on the road next year', but he's also - as is his coach - on record as saying he wants to race across disciplines and that's what keeps him motivated. Which is fair enough, that seems to be how he's wired., short attention span, not engaged when not racing for the win, not a great team player. Where it gets messy is the bit where INEOS - whatever you think of the company and the team - pays him lots of money mostly based on potential on the road, but his take seems to be that he will decide, for example, what his role at the Tour de France is going to be.
Do you tell your employer - assuming you have one - what you're going to do even when they're paying you to do something else?
As Vingegaard shows, a lightweight, physiologically-gifted rider can be a GC winner, but it takes focus and dedicated training to that goal. That doesn't mean Pidcock could do the same, but you suspect that's the gamble INEOS took when they agreed to pay him a shedload of money. If he was winning loads of one-day races regularly, that might be less of an issue, but really he's not and you have to think that the dissonance between what he's paid to do in INEOS's view and what he and his immediate support-team actually does/wants to do is what's at the heart of this.
He's a super-talented rider and should be with a team that wants him to race across the board - EF maybe or maybe the Q 36.5 outfit - and be happy and supported doing that. Whether another team can afford to pay him the big bucks to do that remains to be seen, maybe he takes a pay-cut to follow his passions, maybe it's a grass is always greener thing. For INEOS it reminds me of Mikel Artteta at Arsenal shedding talented players who didn't fit with his vision and, if one their young guns breaks through next season, no-one outside the British cycling media will be talking about Pidcock.
TLDR: him leaving INEOS is probably going to be the best course for both parties, but he may have to accept that he makes less dosh elsewhere. None of which means he's not very, very talented. He does win races, but arguably not enough to justify the amount he's paid and not the races - grand tours - that INEOS really, really wants to win.
no recaro seats I heard
A-A….Is Pidock tanned? This is all starting to look VERY familiar…
No idea what you are on about TBH.
I was simply pointing out that INEOS have had a shit season but Pidcocks Amstel win is probably the highlight. Narveas win at giro is only other top result, although since looking this up I also saw that Ganna won a TT at giro too but then his season fizzed out fast too
I think the bigger question is whether Ratcliffe continues with INEOS or just pulls the plug. Looks more like he's had his little excursion into owning a cycling team and has now lost interest.
I think the bigger question is whether Ratcliffe continues with INEOS or just pulls the plug. Looks more like he’s had his little excursion into owning a cycling team and has now lost interest.
That would be a good thing i think. They've totally lost their way. They've gone from a team battling for everything to a team you look at and think "no chance" at 99% of times they line up. They don't even look like threatening in races, let alone winning them. They're pretty anonymous now and need a complete rethink on riders, tactics, events, everything. Something clearly isn't working at the whole team.
Even teams like Tudor, UnoX etc have realistically taken them to task now and if you're sitting watching you rarely even consider the the "oh he could....." when an INEOS guy does actually turn up.
I was simply pointing out that INEOS have had a shit season but Pidcocks Amstel win is probably the highlight. Narveas win at giro is only other top result,
You could argue that Narvaez beating Pogacar on the opening hill-top finish of the Giro and taking pink isn't a bad result, particularly when the Ecuadorian gets paid a shedload less than Pidcock. But that's not really the point. No-one's saying Pidcock's not a very good rider on his day, just that his performances are apparently out of proportion to his pay and that maybe he's not the best fit for INEOS or vice versa.
Sure, you can use it as a stick to beat INEOS, but isn't all the fuss and the inflated salary mostly because he's British? If he were, say, Belgian, no-one would be particularly bothered. Meanwhile INEOS has leaked top talent like a sieve, Carapaz for example, AdamYates, Landa, Danny Martinez, Sivakov, Tao GH etc without replacing them with a really competitive GC leader.
Arguably their best result this year wasn't Pidock winning Amstel Gold, or Narvaez's stage win, it was Geraint Thomas finishing on the podium at the Giro, because ultimately grand tour racing and winning the Tour in particular is their priority. And that, again, is why Pidcock's not a great fit maybe.
As someone else has already said above, following the departure of certain key management figures has created a lack of team direction, which has had a massive impact on results. Couple that with the fact that Ineos are now nowhere near the big money team they once were means they just don’t have the ability to compete at the top as they once did.
By the way, this is all on an episode of Watts Occurring, so from the horses mouth, so to speak.
Lack of direction and management support has a very negative impact on riders like Pidcock & the Hayters; they’re winners but also need a team to support them. Riders like Pog, WvA & Vingegaard are the exception not the rule, so comparisons have only limited utility.
People seem critical of TP’s salary (which I have no idea of), saying he’s not doing this that or the other… It’s my understanding that when Ineos agreed his contract they were a very different team both financially and structurally. To those who criticise him saying he hasn’t fulfilled his potential I would suggest that the Ineos Team as a whole, which is specifically to say from the management downwards, is arguably not the team it was at the time he joined them for the gazillions people suggest he’s paid. What I mean is, I’d suggest the contract to perform runs both ways so for people to criticise TP whilst not acknowledging the team’s responsibility towards its riders has probably not been met are just being blinkered.
Another example is Philipo Ganna… what’s he achieved this year? He used to be a sure bet at any TT. He looks unmotivated to say the least. He’s a born winner, but why isn’t he winning every TT? He looks like he’s lost weight, so I do wonder if they were continuing their GC obsession by trying to get him to climb better. Maybe not as a GC contender but possibly to perform a specific role akin to the phenomenal role that Rohan Dennis performed for them a few years ago.
With regard to TP leaving, he’s already a Red Bull sponsored rider so Bora seems the obvious direction to me.
I agree with that, I was simply pointing out that for many winning Amstel Gold is a top result, not everyone can be a Pog or MVdP His results this season in a malfunctioning team are not bad at all.
As I said I have no idea what he is paid. He should move away but where his focus lies is tricky. He won't beat the likes of MVdP or Wout often in the power classics and he will not beat Pog in the hillier classics and he's not a grand tour gc rider.
As I said I have no idea what he is paid.
2.7 million euros from Ineos.
People seem critical of TP’s salary (which I have no idea of), saying he’s not doing this that or the other… It’s my understanding that when Ineos agreed his contract they were a very different team both financially and structurally. To those who criticise him saying he hasn’t fulfilled his potential I would suggest that the Ineos Team as a whole, which is specifically to say from the management downwards, is arguably not the team it was at the time he joined them for the gazillions people suggest he’s paid. What I mean is, I’d suggest the contract to perform runs both ways so for people to criticise TP whilst not acknowledging the team’s responsibility towards its riders has probably not been met are just being blinkered.
What do you think INEOS are not doing to support Pidcock?
What do you think INEOS are not doing to support Pidcock?
In simple terms, when he's been in positions where he's strong, like the Strade Bianchi, he's had very little in the way of team-mates next to him helping with attacks. Same with some of the GC stages he's looked good in.
So for me he's not either getting the right team-mates, they don't give a shit about him or they're not good enough for the job....
All of that is pretty critical of course, but that's a brutal overview.
I’ve got no idea… I’m a bloke on the internet.
My point is that to focus solely upon Pidcock’s results or him being “difficult”, or him riding other events away from the road, all in isolation, is blinkered, there’s much more going on in that team & it has had a measurable impact on results for many of its riders, not just Pidcock.
Edit: Weeksy has a good point. I mean, look at his late entry to Paris Roubaix… he got 17th in a race that should not suit someone of his size. The next placed Ineos rider was Conor Swift, who is arguably (physically speaking) more suited to that race, & he was minutes down in 30 odd place. Where was his support? Most of the team dropped out.
Ineos' goal is seemingly grand tours, seems Tom is not a good fit for that even if they sorted everything else out.
Clearly Le Tour is the pinnacle of pro riding from a team point of view. But how does everything else rank? Is a Monument better than the Vuelta?
Riding a one week tour-of-somewhere-I'd-struggle-to-put-on-a-map is good practise for riders and teams with Grand Tour aspirations but can't be a sponsor favourite compared to a spring classic.
Next years Worlds in Rwanda is going to be so hilly that MVDP isn't bothering attending - suggesting it could be a good course for TP.
Tom seems to be (and I'm speaking only of his racing, not his personality) aggressive, selfish/not a team player and easily bored/needs motivation. None of which seem to be compatible with being a GT GC contender. Even his Tour stage win was a random individual effort which probably hindered the GC effort rather than helped it?
It does seem to fit nicely with riding a select targeted program of CX, XC and one day races. MVDP made a good run of doing just that prior to 2021.
Next years Worlds in Rwanda is going to be so hilly that MVDP isn’t bothering attending – suggesting it could be a good course for TP.
Is Pogi not going ?
Tom seems to be (and I’m speaking only of his racing, not his personality) aggressive, selfish/not a team player and easily bored/needs motivation. None of which seem to be compatible with being a GT GC contender.
I think Bernard Hinault would disagree with the aggressive selfish elements not being compatible (and a lot of the big gt winners were selfish racers).
they don’t give a shit about him
I’m not sure being a domestique is a career where you can decide to lead the team leader hanging - there’s plenty of competition for contracts so sabotaging a team’s race isn’t going to go well at your mid-season personal development review meeting 🙂
Going on UCI points for Ineos this year according to pro cycling stats
Rodriguez winning Romandie and 7th in the tour: 500 and 425 respectively
Thomas Giro podium: 750
Amstel win and tdf stage 2nd: 500 and 150
Which is interesting from 2 perspectives:
(1) Rodriguez is Ineos' best change at GC, forget TP, if that's what they want they should go all in for Carlos.
(2) Focusing on 1 day races pays in terms of points, if it pays in terms of TV time etc is another matter.
(1) Rodriguez is Ineos’ best change at GC, forget TP, if that’s what they want they should go all in for Carlos.
Only if 5-6 other riders are not there
I'm sure he's not easy to work with. But if that is a bigger problem now than since they last renewed his contract it's their environment and not his personality which has changed.
They can't reasonably have the hump with him because his multi-discipline riding rather than focussing on the road leads to compromise. Because that's *precisely* what they signed up to do. He made it clear in pretty much every public statement he made before he turned road pro that he wanted a team which would support his varied ambitions. And they quickly extended his contract after a season of multi-disciplinary riding and compromise on the road. In fact they hailed his versatility when they announced that renewal. And all of it was long term project, not least the grand tour thing (cf Geraint's trajectory) which is also subject to massive uncertainty (cf all the other riders in the history of cycling who have targeted that).
Here's Brailsford: "Tom’s an incredibly talented bike racer but what sets him apart is his versatility...The length of the relationship we’ve agreed with Tom gives us the opportunity to enable his ambitious, multi-disciplined goals".
(source https://www.pinkbike.com/news/tom-pidcock-signs-new-5-year-contract-with-ineos-grenadiers.html)
Ineos is falling apart. They were very good at one thing for quite a long time. It was boring and soulless and let's be honest smelled a bit fishy but Brits (including me, for a long time) forgave that because of results. They can't do that any more, and it turns out they aren't any good at other things. The wins have tried up. The big money isn't flowing any more. They lost key personnel. They are no longer the favoured plaything of the big boss. Bad managers are flailing, including resorting to public vindictiveness. This public rift with Pidcock is just a symptom. I don't know if he's a nice guy. I like watching him ride but I don't think I'd want to be his boss or teammate. But they are an employer and in this instance they are being a shitty one: they chose him, committed to him long term, threw the money at him. They can't now turn around and blame his personality, his versatility, he results etc etc which are all more or less what they signed up and paid for.
What do you think INEOS are not doing to support Pidcock, [Ganna, Hayter, Tarling]
FTFY - they have a squad who are all underperforming is the point being made up thread (Tarling perhaps too early to tell). These guys should be doing better but if the team is falling apart the management are also failing the riders with the potential they have in a squad not able to fulfil their individual/collective promise
Lots of other teams have had great results this season in the GCs and one-day events. TP is the one rider at Ineos that people not on STW will know of, so not sure why he's getting a hard time for getting paid lots. I think there was a thread a few weeks ago lauding his outrageous racing cojones. We can't have it both ways. I'm in Tom's camp - Ineos are letting him down, letting the others down
I think Ineos problem is simply that they don't have pog or vingd on their team? Same as any other gc team really.
TP has real technical bike handling talent especially off road that those 2 will never ever be able to come even close to. They win instead on the gc climbing fitness pissing contest which frankly has been boring for years. I doubt he'll ever be able to do the same as them so why should he leave all his talents behind the sofa for years with the outcome that he still unlikely to beat POG in gc?
Unfortunately real bike handling skill doesn't necessarily pull in the bucks even if the racing it creates is IMO often way more exciting. I reckon he should sharpen up his sprinting again as hes got the agression / elbows for that aplenty!
Regarding TP and others salaries https://en.brujulabike.com/how-much-money-do-top-mountain-bikers-make/ is interesting and seems about right to me. TLDR Pidcock $4M, Van der Poel $2M, Schurter $500K, Gwin $1M in his best year.
I'd agree with those on the 'Ineos problem' side. The way things have panned out results-wise for Pidcock can't be a great surprise to anyone.
I will say though, I don't think any of the top road riders could live with him on an MTB - when he turns up he pretty much always wins. Van der Poel did win occasionally, but never felt anywhere near as nailed on as Pidcock for the win, which suggests that the MTB XC specialists maybe aren't so bad after all. Pidcock's build and talents seem perfect for XC to me.
Its the weight of expectation on Pidcocks little shoulders too that a lot of people seem to be overlooking. He would have known all to well what Ineos were expecting of him, and what riders he was expected to be challenging podium spots for.
The stress he must be under has to be unbelievable; his worse fears being an example of someone who failed after such early promise. We have seen other great talents crack under this previously - and also very recently. His prickly diva like attitude is probably a coping mechanism to the pressure/stress.
The big spending teams appear to have their young talents already, and maybe he will be happy taking a huge pay cut and joining a lower team that will be happy for him to ride the GTs for the odd stage win and classics. I really dont see him having the opportunity as Ineos initially presented him - and at best, he may find himself being in the Yates brothers position, which aint so bad for most pro cyclists ..
We can’t have it both ways. I’m in Tom’s camp – Ineos are letting him down, letting the others down
I know it's very modern, but you don't have to be on one side or another. In the real world, people on both sides of relationships personal, business or otherwise, make mistakes / have faults. INEOS Grenadiers can be letting Pidcock down, but equally he can at the same time, be letting them down - the two things aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. Equally INEOS, the team owners can be at fault, who knows.
Most of this is 'fiction' anyway, in the sense that none of us really know what's going on and perhaps never will. All you can really do is hope that however it's resolved, it works for everyone and a really, talented, exciting young rider gets to maximise his ability, have the career he deserves and, maybe most importantly, is happy.