Forum menu
Either way I’d be quite happy if no mountain biking discipline was in the Olympics. Or the UCI, for that matter.
Bruce, You bored everyone with your ranting on the UCI thread, please don't start again
I'm really enjoying watching people who ride the same XC bike as me, but doing it on more exciting terrain, and way better than me.
Maybe go and watch the UCI cycle-ball or artistic cycling for a bit of a calm down. Cycling is a beautiful broad church
I think it is brilliant that a few individuals have the skills to race across disciplines. They shouldn't be given a front row slot, but equally shouldn't be on the back row either. We are now at the point of shut up and race - and it looks like being a good one🙂. The best person at riding an MTB will win.
The best person at riding an MTB will win.
Will someone who starts at the back realistically win though?
Pidcock has before, but burned a lot of gas doing it and probably took some risks / upset a few people on the way through. When you are the reigning Olympic champ and have won world cups, I don't see why you should be put in that position.
Am I right in saying that Pidcock hasn’t benefitted by being moved up the grid as he’s already gained enough UCI points in MTB this year to not be at the back? If MVDP and Sagan haven’t done that, why should they be handed an advantage?
Huge gap - I’d have gone for it.
You can look at it both ways, why should some top riders be disadvantaged just because they ride multiple disciplines but then again everyone knew the rules(or thought they did!) Which is why Pidcock fitted some XC I to his road schedule to enable a decent grid spot.
Am I right in saying that Pidcock hasn’t benefitted by being moved up the grid as he’s already gained enough UCI points in MTB this year to not be at the back? If MVDP and Sagan haven’t done that, why should they be handed an advantage?
I think so. Rumour has it they’ll be popping some boarding in the gap jumps and after the drops just to give MVDP the best shot as unifying the stripes.
Bruce, You bored everyone with your ranting on the UCI thread, please don’t start again
Boredom normally means you wander off and do something else. Taking the time to write a post just to slag someone off means you're not bored, you're upset.
Many other people got upset when I suggested that non-specialists turning up and doing well was not a good look and kind of a problem.
Well, now we have racers saying Tom Pidcock isn't a real mountain biker because he is simply a better racer.
We have the rules getting changed the day before the event.
We have dozens of riders signing an open letter.
This is not 'not a problem' and, imo, it's still not a good look for, at least as far as the general public is concerned, the most visible form of mountain bike racing.
I'm not expert in these matters, but it looked like LS was going for a fast corner and TP was going for a racing corner.
A fine line between unsporting behaviour and exciting racing.
well MVP crashed out on the start loop lol
I think the main difference with CX is that it happens at a completely different time of the year. It complements road racing whereas XC competes directly with it. And the problem is it's going to lose out to road racing every time.
If I was going to suggest how to fix this, my solution would be to make XC a winter sport.
Even though we ride our mountain bikes year round, there is no winter discipline for mountain biking. DH, Enduro, and XC all compete for attention. Not only that but XC competes with road racing for attention.
The problem is that XC is an Olympic event and therefore has to be held during the summer. I don't think having XC as an Olympic sport and therefore the premier discipline of mountain biking really reflects the realities of mountain biking anymore.
I think XC and CX could exist side by side quite happily in much the same way that DH and Enduro exist side by side with some riders dipping in and out of both.
I also think we could see enduro riders and even DHers using it as winter training. We might even get more XC riders doing enduro and DH during the summer.
I think if XC is going to try to compete with Grand Tours and one day classics it's going to lose everytime which is going to lead to more of the problems we've seen this week.
If you put XC in the winter Olympics that's it for Cross....
I don't think so... CX is well established and well attended these days (has been growing over the years). XC would have a real uphill battle to fight against CX in winter, I don't think it would win - far more effort to set-up, far more time in the freezing conditions and races are much longer - none of those things appeal to organisers, helpers, spectators or most racers.
CX is well established and well attended these days
CX has been well established for many years, hence a whole load of teams with strong links to the communities the racing takes place in, unlike xc. You also have local riders and established road cycling stars riding the big events. MTB xc doesn’t have the history, the stars or strong identity cx has and that’s before you get into the fact that it’s long races not suited for casual spectators like cx is.
The winner of the worlds has the same model Oakleys as me, in exactly the same colourway. I feel awesome 😎
XC would have a real uphill battle to fight against CX in winter, I don’t think it would win
I don't think everything has to be a zero sum game. In this case I think it would be a case of increasing the size of the pie rather than trying to steal a part of what currently belongs to CX.
Especially when you look at the current way we watch bike races with the GCN subscriptions. It's a problem for mtb fans that there is nothing to watch from September until April so it's in their interest to find something for us to watch during the winter months.
Once you've got people paying for a year round subscription they might end up coming for the XC but staying for CX, thus increasing the audience in general.
I was actually spectating and did get a little video of the incident. The chance of an overtake was definitely possible and tbh that's why i chose to spectate that corner. The swiss team actually practised the move in the warm up so he should have expected it. I think pidcock was in front but the did run wide because he came in hot, but it definitely didn't look intentional to take him down. He did take out someone else in the woods during the XCO but guess if your back on the start then you need to make moves to head forward.
Plenty of CX to watch and it isn't far off MTB racing, just a shorter race, but has all the action and skill to make it very exciting to watch.
Increasing the size of the pie isn't going to work to begin with - racers are committed to the various seasons they race...to get people racing CX and also MTB is going to be a real push to begin with and then things will fragment and both races will suffer.
Saying that, if it works then great, but the initial start will be slow and very patchy - far more work getting a MTB race organised and costs are higher...so I'm not sure many folk will be keen on organising them without some sort of reassurance that there will be enough entries to clear costs at the very least.
Plenty of CX to watch and it isn’t far off MTB racing, just a shorter race, but has all the action and skill to make it very exciting to watch.
Sure, and that's part of why I paid for the full year subscription rather than just the six months of mtb racing. However, a lot of people didn't, I guess because there was no mountain biking for most of the year.
to get people racing CX and also MTB is going to be a real push to begin with and then things will fragment and both races will suffer
Yeah, but we already have CX racers and XC racers. We don't need them doing both.
I see it more like DH and Enduro. Many riders just ride their own discipline but those who want to can jump over for some races.
A lot do both though...so by creating more races in different disciplines, you will split the racers in some cases...so you will get a hit in numbers in both events as some racers won't be willing to race 2 series week on week...depending where you are in the UK, the CX series is almost weekly - some are official race series events and others are just added in, but you'd then need to spread the races further apart to allow other races to be added.
I'm not against this - I'm all for more racing/riding opportunities, but the number of entrants is finite and the costs will force them to pick. Diluting those numbers makes it harder to cover the costs (a large number of these races cover costs but not by much, so reducing the numbers is going to cause an issue for race organisers).
The Mountain bikers who are wanting to race during the winter are already doing the CX races.
Probably need a question being asked to all the CX racers and the MTB racers to see if there would be demand...
I guess we'd need to know how many XC racers race CX over the winter and if that number would be enough to cause issues for CX. And I guess the numbers would vary massively from country to country as well.
One thing to think about though is that if XC became a winter sport you might find more Enduro and DH riders using it as winter training or just because they now have the time to do it. Especially if the current trend for bigger bikes and bigger features continues.
Yeah, but we already have CX racers and XC racers. We don’t need them doing both.
Away from the very high profile riders/events/world cup, those riders outside the top ~20 CX and XC are very much the same people.
It'll just be a race to the bottom. And TBH, I can only see XC losing.
Especially in CX heartlands where the entire club/organisation structure is geared up around CX races.
Yeah, but we already have CX racers and XC racers. We don’t need them doing both.
I see it more like DH and Enduro. Many riders just ride their own discipline but those who want to can jump over for some races.
I think there's some obvious and natural crossover that should be encouraged between CX and XC, the idea of riders/racers being told to stick to one discipline sounds pretty terrible IMO. (unless I've missed some sarcasm here?)
TP has of course been pretty successful in both XC and CX so being criticised for not being a "Specialist" is simply ridiculous. He races bicycles and He is bloody good both on and off-road, basically He's and almost perfect argument against gatekeepers in any niche of cycling.
As for Enduro, it's full of DH/Ex DH racers and (Especially in the Womens) there have been Enduro Racers turning up in WC DH and World Champs, Hattie Harnden finished up in a respectable mid-table position at Fort William.
People can, do and should ride/race across disciplines anyone trying to put barriers in the way of that needs to have their own motives questioned... (IMO of course)
I think there’s some obvious and natural crossover that should be encouraged between CX and XC, the idea of riders/racers being told to stick to one discipline sounds pretty terrible IMO. (unless I’ve missed some sarcasm here?)
No sarcasm but I think you've misunderstood what I'm trying to say.
TP is the best XC racer in the world (imo) but he has only raced two XC races this year.
MvdP has only done one race (briefly).
We haven't seen Egan Bernal race XC since he was winning medals in the Juniors.
Sam Gaze has said he want to achieve everything he can in XC but his main goal is to be successful on the road. If he is then we can expect to see much less of him.
The point is we aren't getting to see the best XC mountain bikers riding mountain bikes because XC is trying to compete directly with road racing.
I think the 'pure' XC field is right to feel angry at the UCI changing the rules the day before the race. However, I don't think they have the right to feel angry that these riders were moved up (except Sagan, he shouldn't have been there) because instead of riding WC rounds they were out riding the TdF.
I don't want to see less TP and MvdP. I want to see more of them.
Fair enough, I think the problem you will always face is more to do with money, tradition and the good old UCI.
I don't think you'll find a better slot in the year for XC racing, making it a winter sport would not help (IMO) and you'll not displace other disciplines just so the new flavour of cycling can score more big names in competition.
I think XC will always remain the "poor cousin" with riders like TP taking the opportunity to earn more and become household names in the more widely popular disciplines.
Part of that issue though is also meeting their sponsor's requirements...I'm assuming (as I don't know) they the CX and MTB isn't really a priority or real thought for their sponsors. It will no doubt cost a small fortune to fully support a rider (not even a team) to do a full XC session, likewise a similar cost for doing a CX session and then the cost of them doing road.
If it could be sorted so that they riders could do them all, then it would be great, but training schedules would be properly rejigged to support the requirements for each discipline throughout the year.
I'm not sure it is an easy one to crack, especially given how skilled these multi-discipline riders are...there isn't an obvious 'bad' discipline that could be dropped to allow them to do 2.
Winter is typically the time for base fitness for roadies, if you introduce XC and do the CX races then is that going to cause issues with training and fitness?
I'm not against any of this, just trying to play devil's advocate and think out loud.
I’m not against any of this, just trying to play devil’s advocate and think out loud.
No I have no idea if this would work well or even work at all.
I just want to get the most value for money out of my GCN subscription 🙂
Part of that issue though is also meeting their sponsor’s requirements…I’m assuming (as I don’t know) they the CX and MTB isn’t really a priority or real thought for their sponsors.
I think Ineos-Grenadiers have signed both Pidcok and Ferrand-Prevot knowing that both are going for XCO Gold and that the Worlds Gold is part of that programme, I imagine that the all their sponsors had massive hang-overs on Sunday
It will no doubt cost a small fortune to fully support a rider (not even a team) to do a full XC session
I know that one of things that PFP has said is that previously her teams have "left her to get on with everything herself" ie she's been largely unsupported, one of things that she's said has been the hardest to get used to with I-G is that now she has a full time assistant - and further help should she need it just a call away.
You want XC in the winter, fine.
Forgetting any arguments about participants, who is going to carry the increased trail maintenance burden, increased likelihood of weather cancelling it, less volunteers willing to stand out in all weather's etc?
Don't pro road riders just end up on a nice dependable road in Bloemfontein instead of a cold wet field near ghent come winter? I might be wrong but I'm guessing it's a fairly full time job.
Moving xc to winter isn't going to fix that. Especially if it turns out that racing a lot of of xc arguably doesn't make you better at it than someone who is only able to do the odd race here and there.
Yeah, there's plenty reasons why it wouldn't work.
Do we just have to accept we only get to see the best racers in the Olympics?
Even for this World Champs, MvdP said he was aiming to finish in the top 10 to 15 rather than going for the win. I think it was more about qualifying for Paris. It could have just been a bluff but after the TdF and that Road Race last week I suspect he wasn't really prepared for XC racing at the sharp end (which may well have contributed to the crash).
Saying that, it wouldn't have surprised me at all if he ended up winning the thing either.
LOL at the suggestion that xc should shift to become a winter sport. ????
Do we just have to accept we only get to see the best racers in the Olympics?
Yep, I think that's probably true, or we'll get to see the racers that are able to cross over to other disciplines compete in particular races to their calendar (the ones that will guarantee them an Olympic spot presumably)
LOL at the suggestion that xc should shift to become a winter sport. ???
Insightful.
LOL at the suggestion that xc should shift to become a winter sport. ????
Yeah it might work for the UK, possibly, there are some areas that are going to be unridable in winter, other bits that would be perfect.
The warmer/southern US states would love it.
(unsure what would happen to the Antipodean domestic series, would they switch to their winter, or align with the global calendar)
But in the flatlands of northern europe it would lose to 'cross, 100% of the time; and in the mountains, both EU and North America, the riders and courses are under snow.
For most competitors it would be a big no-go. The top riders just buy a house wherever they want to live, but the future rising stars, the juniors, and just the grass roots amateurs racing for fun who are kind of stuck geographically where they happen to live; it will be the end of XC for them.
and just the grass roots amateurs racing for fun who are kind of stuck geographically where they happen to live; it will be the end of XC for them.
Not really. Just because pro/competition season is winter doesn't mean the rest of us have to. No reason you couldn't run your local races in summer regardless (see also football over the school holidays etc)
Other than these few notable exceptions, is there any evidence that any of the better road or track cyclists could (or more importantly want to) cross over and compete with the best of mtb?
I don't quite get the premise that there's any kind of halo effect for the UCI due to these riders crossing over. You have to be pretty road centric (UCI - lol) to believe that the mtb community somehow give any regard to the road. I know I couldn't give a monkeys.
BruceWee
LOL at the suggestion that xc should shift to become a winter sport. ???
Insightful
They're different sports, mainly participated by different people. There is a crossover between them for sure, most mountainbikers I know own other bikes and some of them may be ridden on road but I know very few who cross over to any real extent. The UCI are are a very road/track centric organisation and everything is viewed through those eyes. They believe that the stars of cycling wear lycra and weigh <55kgs, trying to pander to that would be ludicrous.
Occasionally some people are just great cyclists and can do anything, Tom Pidcock is one of those guys. Frustrating that the money and most of the attention is in road cycling as otherwise he'd already be a proper superstar.
Not sure any change is needed really. I don’t really think many road/CX riders could just rock up and dominate mtb like some seem to think. The sport has evolved a lot and needs a lot of technical skill. You’ve got a couple in the men’s field who have the ability and seems Puck has made a good transition to the women’s. That’s it.
Some of the women’s fields earlier in the year were littered with the biggest names from CX who made not impact on the race at all.
Frustrating that the money and most of the attention is in road cycling as otherwise he’d already be a proper superstar
I think you make the mistake of thinking being the best MTB racer in the world compared with road would be a bit like being the best doubles tennis player in the world compared with singles.
I'm pretty sure it'd be more like being the best badminton player in the world.
MTB isn't disproportionately unpopular, it's just road is disproportionately popular.
Don’t pro road riders just end up on a nice dependable road in Bloemfontein instead of a cold wet field near ghent come winter? I might be wrong but I’m guessing it’s a fairly full time job
Outside of the headline and protour riders, no. Not really.
They'll do a handful of training blocks somewhere sunny, 7-10-14 days in Spain, Italy, South Africa, whatever (whatever they can afford!). The rest of their winter will be spent looking for breaks in the weather where they live.
Get 20 places down in a local elite CX race and it'll be a mixture of all three disciplines, CX riders, mid-pack pro road and MTB riders.
It complements road racing whereas XC competes directly with it.
It doesn't though really, I mean there's an audience for mountain bike XC racing, fo'shure and then there's a sport that has as it's main event (the TdF) one of the largest audiences of any single sport (along with the super bowl and the Olympics, and the world cup) Road cycling's participation and audience for events is orders of magnitude greater than XC can ever hope to recreate, and I don't think that by moving it to the Winter would create any more interest in other XC mountain bikers being either 1. able to compete in road racing or 2. encourage road racers to take part in a winter XC race - the chance of injury alone would probably put them off, and outside of a few ultra-talented individuals who's skills and natural talent allow them to compete at the sharp end of either discipline, the tactics, training and demands of each sports are completely different.
It's great to see younger riders competing in all disciplines, but it'll remain the preserve of a very few very talented riders, rather than common place.
dangeourbrain
Frustrating that the money and most of the attention is in road cycling as otherwise he’d already be a proper superstar
I think you make the mistake of thinking being the best MTB racer in the world compared with road would be a bit like being the best doubles tennis player in the world compared with singles.
I’m pretty sure it’d be more like being the best badminton player in the world.MTB isn’t disproportionately unpopular, it’s just road is disproportionately popular.
I'm well aware that road is very much disproportionally more popular than mtb, it has the history, a world famous, an annual 3 week rolling advertisement and the governing body favour it above all. I was simply suggesting that if mtb stars were as big as road "stars" (inverted commas because I know very few of them) he'd be a superstar.
As it is World and Olympic titles in xc and cyclocross don't mean he can drop road. Not that there's any suggestion that he would want to, I suspect he fancies his chances on the road as well and the off road is just a bit of fun. It's nice to have a job AND a hobby.