[Closed] Pentlands Hillend Mtb development. ?

Actual bike chairlift - takes you and your bike to the top of the hill

Proposed bike chairlift - takes people to Dreamy Dream Land...

focus on the solution not on the problem.

kaesae, bit of advice mate, focus on living in the real world and not recycling glib statements?

As BigJim suggests, simply turning up with a spade and hacking out a trail will do nobody any favours.

Additionally, actually galvanizing others from an internet forum to follow suit is hopeless. people will always agree its a good idea when sitting in their cosy office bashing a keyboard to bits, but ask them to put any cash up front or expend significant effort and they melt like snow off a dyke. The inners chairlift thread is a perfect example of this.

not knocking the idea by any means but simply firing a couple of glib motivational statements on a forum thread wont make it happen.

bigjim, I have heard this from those 2 people personally, so I think this is where it is at. Or was 2 months or so ago, don't know if anything has changed in the meantime.

2 people who are very experienced in running a mtb business

Yes Tracy and Emma were interested and still might be, all I know is there's a hill over there with lots of potential and I need some exercise.

Digging, hammering, other building stuff + fresh air and great views = fun.

Will it work? who gives a **** ! if it's a choice between the above mentioned exercise and doing something constructive for the mtb culture, or listening to arguing with and generally suffering the self important, hypercritical wind bags on this forum.

I know what I'll be doing, no offence is meant to any of the actual riders on stw.

Davidrussel I am not your mate, however if you're looking for one, may I suggest a cross between a baboon and a weasel, would be a good match for you!

Difference between this and the Inners project is that some folk in Inners are actually doing something about it.

I'm sure bigjim isn't your mate either - I was paraphrasing.

no matter, childish insults defeat reasoned points yet again on STW.

stevenmenmuir - Member

Difference between this and the Inners project is that some folk in Inners are actually doing something about it.

I'm sure Kaesae isn't suggesting starting digging without any kind of permission. That after all would be pretty stupid. Just suggesting that if and when permission is granted, people get stuck in and lend a hand.

I wasn't suggesting we get into a discussion about [b][i]ALL[/i][/b] the differences between Inners and the Pentlands. 🙄

Only tens of thousands? Good luck there then...

It is back of the couch stuff for hillend though, totally different story to Innerleithen. The regulatory / environmental / shared vision stuff would be bigger challenges then actually financing the trail build.

Interesting discussion. I'm struggling to see the similarity with inners, given as many have pointed out there is already a lift in place that is barely used.

Yes there are huge logisitical elements to overcome, but I've seen more extravegant uses of the public purse before, and it would undoubtably be attractive from a tourism perspective if done right. Lets not forget Biking is a boom sport, that people in power appear to be getting behind. For that reason theres probably never been a better time to push the issue, especially given hillends current finances.

I guess the key question is has anyone on here even got the faintest idea how to even go about making formal enquiries, usefull contacts etc etc. If it was just a bunch of folks on a forum spouting off I agree it wouldn't go far, but if someone spent a bit of time coming up with a suitable proposal then you never know, stranger things have happened!

And if it did move forward, I'd defo help out...got a spade in my dads shed just itching to be used!

Some facts:
The land at Hillend belongs to Midlothian Council.
The development plans already announced include a further ski slope to the East of the current one and a larger nursery area with added space for some "free-skiing".

Any MTB route would therefore have to be further west. I don't have the land-ownership details with me at the moment, but I think that would fall outwith Hillend Country Park.

The site of the Fairmile head Inn has been sold and is to be flattened and a large outdoor/bike shop built. They will do all the ski tech stuff for the ski centre apparently. My friend involved said that there was plans to do something MTB related with one of the golf courses below Hillend, more likely pump track rather than DH was the impression I got.

Another friend who is heavily involved in the Scottish Water pipeline just the other side of the A702, said one of the major land owners has all sorts of pie in the sky ideas for lifts up to the top of Allemuir!!

Would love to see a bit of MTB development around there, lots of potential, would be quite interesting to see if they tried to link over to the Pentlands proper, no really easy way up and over, even with the chairlift.

I think Druidh is right about land ownership west of the ski area - thats a golf course ATM is it not? Looks like there might be a bit of land but not much that could be used to the west. could bike trails go further east of the ski areas even the new developments?

DickBarton - Member

Only tens of thousands? Good luck there then...

druidh do you have a link to the development plan and what's the point of developing something that isn't even popular 😆

Not that I'm saying they wouldn't do something that stupid, but it seems a bit pointless, a bit like the make over the museum saw, a lot of money a lot of hoohaa but in 5 years time, it will more likely than not be forgotten.

Anyway back the the development plans, any links?

I'm actually away from home for a couple of days - I'll see what I can dig out when I get back home.

I guess the key question is has anyone on here even got the faintest idea how to even go about making formal enquiries, usefull contacts etc etc. If it was just a bunch of folks on a forum spouting off I agree it wouldn't go far, but if someone spent a bit of time coming up with a suitable proposal then you never know, stranger things have happened!

Well, it would need a planner or thereabouts (I'm not a planner btw) to identify the way forward really, or someone with an understanding of the development process and how to create the project and take it to submission. In my last job (environmental consultancy) I worked on the edinburgh core paths plan, and project managed the last 6 months or so. We also tendered for some work with the PHRP to identify improvements to access points for non-motorised users, and scope out a work schedule to implement them, but at the fee rates of the company I worked for we couldn't meet the scope of work for the money available (low 5 figures).

This is why I keep prattling on about the money required for a task such as this, I don't think most people realise quite how much it costs for even simple development projects to be realised. Unless you have post of cash sitting about, you'll have to build a very good business case to acquire this kind of money through banks up front, and I'm not sure if there are many sources of grant money that would be relevant and willing to stump up the wonga, I reckon you could get the odd grant here and there but I just don't know.

Briefly off the top of my head and in no order, I think you would roughly have to:

-Form a cohesive identifiable group/organisation, with a working structure, ie not a bunch of strangers arguing on the internet and randomly phoning the ski centre/phrp
-Identify and specify the project outline, ie what you are proposing, creating tracks down the hill to integrate with the existing/proposed Hillend ski centre infrastructure
-Identify what you need to do in the legal framework and in relation to landowners and stakeholders
-Prepare a scope of work to realise the project from inception to completion, with a timeline
-Allocate the work packages to the relevant parties for completion, ie tender to consultancy/ies, produce in house if you have the knowledge and skills and time inhouse
-Manage the project in a professional way that will ensure you are taken seriously and able to take it seriously when it does get serious, eg dealing with representations from objectors.
-Liase continuously with all stakeholders throughout the lifetime of the project as required, manage budgets and consultants,
-Once it is built, make sure you make all the money back, and then there is the maintenance of the trails and business admin side. Whether this would be taken on by the council as part of the ski centre operation or what, who knows.

But, I'm just guessing, so could be way off the mark, like I said, I'm not a planner.

If I win the lottery I'll do it though...

There are a couple of meetings coming up in Inners for the uplift, pop along to see the plans and speak to the people behind it, get some idea of what's involved etc. Sunday 19th of Feb 10am-3pm, Wednesday 22nd 5pm-8pm, both at the Memorial Hall.

Cheers druidh!

There is a resource that could easily be adapted to benefit our way of life and culture, there is also a chance we, that is to say mountain bikers could have a say and some involvement in how it's run.

It may come to nothing but I for one am going to do some digging and see if there is any chance of development.

Surely it makes more sense in terms of sustainability and development to invest in what ever group is making the most amount of noise about access.

There is room for plenty to be done on that hill if we are innovative and make the most of what's there, the potential is amazing, north shore, practice tracks for cornering, jumping, dropping, a 4x track and pump track.

It would not cost too much to put this together and if you look at the success of transgression park for BMX'ers, the potential for a small MTB park right on our door step is very real ❓ I don't give a shit what anyone says, I'm havin a go at this.

>Well, it would need a planner or thereabouts<

Phuk thats the last thing it needs 😉

And the existing chairlift is a bag of nuts - faggetit...

These things are achieved on a level way above FB pages, petitions et al. If you are on here trying to sell it to a bunch of stw jocks then by definition you arent even at the table.

Bigjim gives an insight into what's involved so respect to anyone thats prepared to go for it but be prepared to put your life on hold for 5years +

Atta girl kaesae, you fill your boots. I'll make a diary note to revisit this thread in a year to see what's been done. I'm a betting man though so I'll back my horse the now. Bugger all will have happened and nobody from here will have done anything about it other than occasionally bang on about how great an idea it is, and all we need to make 10 4x tracks and a wc dh course is this and that blah blah.

Besides, I'm sure the council must be setting off your conspiradar? They are all in it together you know. Thank the lord you ain't trying to deal with fcs...

David - you might be right buts its worth having a go - I am quite happy to help kaesae out in seeing what can be done. Maybe nowt but you never know

I think the first step really is to come at it as an organisation of some kind with a cohesive aim and structure. A group of enthusiasts will be able to raise a relative amount of awareness of interest, but to really get things moving you would really have to be acting as one group with formalised points of contact, with a plan (including potential budget sources, money is king) already together before you start consulting stakeholders like PHRP and midlothian council.

An occasional trickle of queries and suggestions to the PHRP or council from interested individuals probably won't achieve anything, they have too much to do and too little money already. I'm not sure if there are existing organisations such as IMBA that could be persuaded to take a lead, and I'm not sure how easy it would be to set up a workable organisation aimed directly at this project. It would take a lot of time and effort, and I fear would be a case of herding cats. If something was set up and it fizzled out or became a bickering group of poorly organised enthusiasts I would say it could do more harm than good in the long run, could end up being seen as having wasted people's time and having blown your chance. But on the other hand, someone out there might have the time, knowledge and patience to take the lead! I do have a good working relationship with the manager of the PHRP from our previous roles, but I don't have the time or knowledge to take much action, and I wouldn't want to waste his time. Having said all that I guess having an informal chat off the back of the Pentland trail repair work organised by Jeremy et al could at least give an indication of what would be required to gauge the feasibility of it all, to inform interested parties of the next steps.

Bigjim gives an insight into what's involved so respect to anyone thats prepared to go for it but be prepared to put your life on hold for 5years +

Thats all we can do now / first step - informal enquiries to see if there is any chance at all / any point in putting time and effort in to it.

The first thing I'd suggest would be to contact Midlothian Council to find out why MTB wasn't considered for the current expansion. That would identify the stumbling block.

Found this;
http://www.midlothian.gov.uk/news/article/285/artists_impression_of_development_plans_at_midlothian_snowsports_centre
I'm pretty sure that the tree belt on the right of the picture is the Westernmost extent of the CP.

I think your are right from looking on google earth- however that would still leave room to the east for tracks from that pic and again from looking on google there is a bit of room in that belt of trees.

The most depressing thing about it all is that I wasn't aware the council were planning to throw even more money at an under used and outdated ski centre. Would be interested to know why they think its suddenly going to fill up with people if they add an extra run?? Besides the fact it has a surface not even slightly resembling snow, its flippin dangerous, went once on my board and snapped my finger in that horrible matting...

Used to be an injury called hillend thumb apparently.. Must have been back in it's heyday though!

Looks like the council plans to sell of part of the land up there to private contractors to fund the ski slopes redevelopment.

I think we should look into blocking any move to sell anything that currently belongs to the council, they are suggesting that money be invested based on no one using the facility 😯

Look at these pictures, there's plenty of space for tracks and all sorts of other stuff, but not if the land is sold to fund a doomed development project.

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

What you see in the photo is only part of the land it runs all the way to the main road.

There are a few reports about it online http://www.scotsman.com/news/ski_centre_s_slide_into_ruin_set_to_be_halted_with_expansion_plan_1_822444

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-12849864

Odd how this place is more fun when no one is about 😆

So how are you suggesting people get to the top with bikes? It has already been stated the chairlift is not fit for purpose.

5 people on a niche mtb forum doesn't mean you will get all the support you will need.

Also would people really want to pay for a lift that gets them 2/3's of the way up a hill, and then they have to push the rest? Over time you you would be left with only a hard core few.

> life on hold for 5 yrs - it's not the new forth road bridge. It's a project with about the same complexity as building a shithouse in the woods.<

What you waiting for then?

How long has the Innerleithen chairlift project been running? At a guess its at least 3 years. Anything coming out the ground yet?

Thought not.

Building it is the easy bit so that aside you couldn't be more wrong...

filler to reveal the 40th post.

My tuppenceworth. I'd have thought there are two key aspects to this. The first is, are the council interested, or can they be persuaded? I know that E and T spoke to them a while back and hit a brick wall. The second is, is the chairlift suitable for being adapted to carrying bikes? I know nothing about chairlifts, but the Alps seem to have managed no problem.

Funky dunc - do you know that for sure? they used to take bikes didn't they?

is the chairlift suitable for being adapted to carrying bikes?

This was the issue when it was last used for DH. They had to stop the lift to load every bike, and it's a slow lift anyhow....

It's a project with about the same complexity as building a shithouse in the woods.

Well, I'd say its more complex than you would think, based on my experience. If it happens I'll buy you a pint 😉

Heather Bash - Member

> life on hold for 5 yrs - it's not the new forth road bridge. It's a project with about the same complexity as building a shithouse in the woods.<

What you waiting for then?

How long has the Innerleithen chairlift project been running? At a guess its at least 3 years. Anything coming out the ground yet?

The thing is the innerleithan chairlift is not plausible/ viable - we know that

This might or might not be - and its a much much smaller scale idea. tens of thousands not tens of millions

tens of thousands not tens of millions

Dunno, think it might be more than tens.

As a rough base - what did spooky wood cost to build? Say you need 5-10 trails of that kinda level of quality to make it work etc. (if you're going to get the number of riders to make it work well, you need trails that can take it).

Phew, thought there was going to be two competing projects there for a minute but it's ok - the Innerleithen guys now want a choo choo:

"Concerned with the slow progress of the much talked about chairlift at Innerleithen the local community have taken things into their own hands.

The original idea for a chairlift was first talked about in 2006 and following input from Emma and Tracey at The Hub and Gravity logic from Whistler, a feasibility study by the local enterprise agency and others was kicked off. The feasibility study identified a need and proposed a chairlift and associated infrastructure including new trail development at a cost of just over £10m. That was back in 2008 and not a lot has happened until now.

August 2010 saw a group from the local community pick up the mantel to see if they could move things forward or at least throw the weight of the community behind the project. A year later and things are moving. The group, AIMUp (Action for the Innerleithen Mechanical Uplift) brought the original partners back together to determine why things had stalled. Funding and costs were high on the agenda. In hard economic times there was very little prospect of finding the funds to take the plan to the next stage or to find a willing private partner to bring the £10m+ proposal to fruition.

With a strong group from the local community made up of local businesses, architects, engineers, and Lawyers including many mountain bikers, the group set about developing a real and cost effective proposal to take Mountain Biking at Innerleithen forward. The result is a community proposal costing close to half the original plan with a greater level of infrastructure. It is a plan which works alongside the Glentress Peel development and utilizes the proposed development of the Tweed Valley Railway line cycle paths. It proposes a proven uplift system with a lower environmental impact, re-construction of some existing trails alongside the development of new trails.

Is this just all talk and unlikely to happen? Well the group thinks the plan is a realistic one, they are looking at it from a business perspective. “Any development must be able to pay for itself, the business plan has to be robust and real”. “The number of mountain bikers combined with the existing facilities, services and trails at Innerleithen don’t justify the capital expenditure for a project of this size. It would be great to think it does and most people see the potential, but in today’s economic climate, the proposal has to incorporate facilities for many users groups and not just mountain bikers”.

The group has taken on the lessons learnt from other resorts and chairlift operators in the UK, Europe and Canada. They propose a rail mounted transport system that provides a proven low impact and cost effective system, which can transport up to 1200 people per hour(maximum capacity) to the top of Plora Rig. It is widely used by ski resorts throughout Europe and can be easily adapted for mountain bikers, in fact the group are actively working with the company to ensure the system works for mountain bikers alongside other users. In addition to the transport infrastructure the group propose base and top station facilities, a new cyclist/walkers bridge to allow for increased capacity, An all weather toboggan run, 4X tracks, new parking facilities and the all important development of the trail infrastructure. The proposal is aimed at working alongside Glentress to ensure that The Tweed Valley offers trails and facilities for all levels and disciplines of mountain biking for many years to come.

Is this the future for Innerleithen? I was told they can come with clip on roofs to protect you from our lovely weather

The group have had very positive meetings with the local council, councilors, MP’s and MSP’s. They have recently completed a successful round of public consultations and are working to take the project to a national level within the next 2 months . They have identified funding opportunities and are actively working towards a constitution that enables them to capture the funding required.

However, they are not getting carried away, ‘we have been here before, with lots of good ideas but no money to make it happen. The business model needs to be a realistic one, with the next stage to take the initial proposal and make it workable and affordable for the community, the end users and for the area around us”.

If you would like further details of the group and their plans, the group can be contacted at our Facebook Page or email:innerleithenaimup@gmail.com or phone Steve Davies on 01896 830208

Innerleithen development sounds great - could phase 1 be the installation of a toilet?