[Closed] Pentland MTB Orienteering event - thoughts?

+1 for the above response.

[img] [/img]

Some real debate going on here 😉

As discussed, I've spoken to the Ranger who has recommended putting the following areas out of bounds: Black Hill west, Dens, Maidens and Phantom's Cleugh and some of the area near Dreghorn. There were already areas out of bounds due to them being "sensitive areas"

I've also been round the area over the winter and considering one or two other areas to be out of bounds. A lot of this will be on the cycle path, lower level roads and the other main metalled roads over the hills. On the day before the event I will again review and may put other areas out of bounds too.

So the "challenge" for me is to have an event that doesn't use these out of bounds areas but still make a fun and interesting event

I agree that we (as bikers) should not be churning up the countryside and ruining it for others.

Also, March was chosen as it was before lambing and birds nesting. Summer is too busy with tourists/ walkers. Autumn is too wet and Winter is too unpredictable. So I will never win with the seasons 😉

Please come along and experience one of these events - you will then understand what mimimal impact a trailquest/ MBO event does.

I bet if you went out on the day, the only difference you'd see is one or 2 blokes with beards and a map board. 🙂

cows_in_cars - Member

if your worried email the organiser first and get the full picture rather than getting all worked up about it on here before knowing all the facts. Don't think the organiser should have to stumble across a thread rubbishing their event, different if you contacted them and they gave an uncaring response or no response. A bit of respect would be good for someone who, like you guys, is willing to devote time to the sport.

The OP was asking if his fears were justified and getting other views onit. there is a long standing history which you may not be aware of discussion and concern over these trails not by nimbys but by users. I am another one who has not ridden in the pentlands all winter because of the condition of the trails and I have been trying to arrange repair sessions.

I for one am reassured by the organiser but only partly so

I've just read everyones post and I'm still bloody going up to check it out. Whether i'll [i]participate [/i]is another story, depends on commitments.

I'm new to the Pentlands and feel real trepidation about independently exploring them in-case I do something deemed "inappropriate",

TJ is there a verbal forum that people attend to talk about the Pentlands with responsible representatives from all parties present?

Talking, eh.

cfinnimore - no - no forum

go and explore - just stick to the code then its no problem

I for one will not be cancelling my entry.

I will also not have any guilt, trepidation or other fears about riding a few trails that may or may not be wet on the day just so they can be in pristine condition should the local elite wish to ride them once every couple of years.

Maybe we should shut the countryside per se cos its been raining?

Its nothing to do wit the local elite. There are a few of us who are upset at the unsustainable erosion the paths are suffering and question the wisdom of holding this event when the paths are fragile and easily damaged. Many of us have stopped riding there because of the damage being done by mountainbikers being irrisponsible.

Cycling on hard surfaces, such as wide paths and tracks,
causes few problems. If going off-trail, especially in
winter, avoid wet, boggy or soft ground and don’t churn
up the surface
Take care not to disturb wildlife or damage natural
vegetation; observe information or signs advising you of
sensitive sites.
Take your litter away with you
[b]A group will have greater impact on the environment[/b], so
take extra care and set a good example if you are a Leader
[b]Help protect trails from erosion[/b]; don’t skid, especially on loose
surfaces and try not to lock your wheels when going downhill.
[b]Remember, you may not be the only cyclists using the route—
consider the cumulative effect[/b]

I for one will not be cancelling my entry.

I will also not have any guilt, trepidation or other fears about riding a few trails that may or may not be wet on the day just so they can be in pristine condition should the local elite wish to ride them once every couple of years.

Maybe we should shut the countryside per se cos its been raining?

Possibly one of the most selfish, ill-informed comments I've seen on here in ages. It's nothing to do with the state of the trails on the day or the weather. It's to do with the fact the trails up there are in a more fragile state than they've been in many years.

There is no local elite; however there are plenty of local riders happy to stay away for the time being to give the trails a bit of a chance to recover. Seems a bit pointless mind you with people like you with this sort of "well as long as I have my fun then sod the rest of you" attitude.

If that all sounds angry and bitter then it's because the Pentlands are an area I care about deeply.

Oh, and to the guy on here organising. Full marks for trying to explain, and full marks for being the sort of bloke working to give something back to the sport, but to be honest, this is the wrong date and the wrong place for this sort of event.

Petition to PHRP anyone?

Sorry I do apologise for wanting to ride my bike

You see if I was planning to ride somewhere and then some locals came on here and told me the trails had been trashed and needed to recover, I'd just ride somewhere else.

Local knowledge counts for a lot.

Ah I see the it's locals again

Do you own these trails?

Where are your local trails fizzer?

fizzer - Member
Ah I see the it's [s]locals[/s] the people with the most informed opinion again

This is why we are concerned - this is a more and more common feature in the pentlands. The organiser has said he is aware of the issues and will try to avoid damage. However given the fragile state of the trails I don't see how an event like this can be run. this is a main junction of trails marked on the OS map

[url= http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7069/6929046405_5e3b7d4804_b.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7069/6929046405_5e3b7d4804_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/25846484@N04/6929046405/ ]Image1[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/25846484@N04/ ]TandemJeremy[/url], on Flickr

[url= http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7200/6929072741_e1693fd68a_b.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7200/6929072741_e1693fd68a_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/25846484@N04/6929072741/ ]Image1[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/25846484@N04/ ]TandemJeremy[/url], on Flickr

TandemJeremy - Image 2 will be out of bounds, not 100% sure where image 1 is but if I think I know where it is (up the back of the reservoir?) which I may make out bounds too.

Please remember that this is a limited number of people going over a huge area on a number of different tracks. Not a group of people going over the same bit of land at the same time and in the same direction.

Majority of the checkpoints are well away from these areas and on good accessible tracks/ trails.

Obviously nobody knows me but I've organised these events for over 3 years now across Scotland and ALWAYS take into account the conditions and the landowners requests. I have had no complaints from the landowners post event...

Thank you to the other people who are supporting this event and I do understand the other commentators responses which I hope I have addressed their concerns.

If these are more and more "common features" why don't we all get a working committee together and fix it so we can all ride rather than just not riding??! 😉

PS - I am not making money from this (unlike the rat race etc) but trying to promote our sport and get people out on their bikes.

Those photos are at the junction between Phantom's and Maiden's Cleugh. A couple of years ago you could pass that spot without slowing, the trail was far narrower and it led down to a great wee rocky section. Not anymore since people have continued riding through all weathers and widening and deepening the track into the mess that remains.

anrmclennan

What puzzles me is if you make bits such as those pics out of bounds then how will you be able to have a choice of routes?. thats one of the few main east / west crossings of the pentlands - most of the others are even more vulnerable bar perhaps green cleugh.

Its a difficult balance. I hope this thread has been taken as meant by you and I commend you for calmly discussing it. I am reasured to some extent by this but I do question if you take the vulnerable trails out of the equation how much you actually have left to allow route choice thus make the event worthwhile - ie can a reasonable compromise be reached?

fizzer - Member

I will also not have any guilt, trepidation or other fears about riding a few trails that may or may not be wet on the day just so they can be in pristine condition should the local elite wish to ride them once every couple of years.

If we trash the trails now, they'll still be trashed come the summer. If we rest the trails now, then they'll be in a better state come the summer. It's not about not riding, it's about choosing when you ride, so that it's better when you do it.

The comment about "local elite" is absurd, what fraction of pentlands riders post on this forum? 1%? But everyone who does benefits from trails being in better condition.

You lot come across as bunch of whining, nimby moaners. As is is that area in the photos won't be fixable until it has seriously started to dry out and will need some form of base put into it to stop it happening again. As a trail builder and maintainer and also familiar with that area historically you should work with the organizer and get a work,party going post event to sort out one or two of the worst spots. Whether you like it or not most people simply don't care and will keep using these paths as and when they like.

Plenty of tyre marks in those pictures so the locals, sorry people with the most informed opinions, are riding there.

The organiser is saying that the routes will be out of bounds but even if they aren't it is no business of yours.

As above, bunch of whining moaners.

NZCol - Member

You lot come across as bunch of whining, nimby moaners. As is is that area in the photos won't be fixable until it has seriously started to dry out and will need some form of base put into it to stop it happening again. As a trail builder and maintainer and also familiar with that area historically you should work with the organizer and get a work,party going post event to sort out one or two of the worst spots. Whether you like it or not most people simply don't care and will keep using these paths as and when they like.

Garry - which is why the OP and most of the posters raised it as a question.

However the attitude of people like fizzer stinks and NZ col - you do not know what has happened in recent years when organised events and overuse has lead to extensive damage.

I have been riding in the pentlands for decades but the last couple of years have seen massive damage

Errrrr I might you know TJ. But anyway dont let that stop you. As I said, it needs fixing but you won't stop the uneducated from using it. Trying to work with events organizers who have offered to try an redress damage could work you know.

Really col- I thought you lived in NZ now. How much have you beeninthe pentlands in the last couple of years?

I do agree with what you say in essence tho. However I don't think its unresonable to [i]question[/i] this given that other events have caused significant damage and that the trails are in a worse condition and more vulnerable now than I have ever seen them.

As above, bunch of whining moaners.

Selfish idiot.

This isn't about "local trails for local riders" - the folk on here showing concern are the very same folk who pop up on "what trails near Edinburgh" threads offering advice and guiding. It's about respect and responsibility - as referred to in the SOAC.

Rather than being coerced into a trail repair session, the organizer should have had this built into the plans from day 1. I wonder how large the entry list would be if the participants knew they had to wield a shovel at some point? Pretty small if fizzer is an example.

Last year I was there 4 times, rode maybe 3 or 4 days, year before 7 times and rode at least 2 days each visit, 2009 I was there only twice but the year before that I was there 6 times. I have a bike there at my mums place and work(Ed) in Edinburgh you see. So I have seen it getting worse but anyway there is a fine line to be trod.

fair enough then Col

Sounds like the Rangers are on the ball anyway.

Maidens looks rank!

Unlike the others who are surprised by the reaction, I ain't as this is STW forum after all 😉

Anyway, I am gonna try this event out as I have heard it's great fun, and from the comments by the organiser I am happy that all the points have been taken into consideration 🙂

Sorry to say guys, but the nay-sayers sound so much like the Walkers and Ramblers I used to meet up there LOL Have the locals really turned into walkers? I don't mean walking I mean the kind of NIMBY approach to new events and uses of the local hills.

I did my first Mountain bike event up there in the late 80's, think it was run by WIlliamson cycles (ah those were the days) and have ridden there since. Was up there on Saturday and was happy to see some trails actually drying out! and guess what I met other bikes (shock horror)

Anyway, good luck to the organisers and I will see you there.

I don't mean walking I mean the kind of NIMBY approach to new events and uses of the local hills.

I can't speak for the others, but I have no objections to events being held or the Pentlands being used The key is that they are done [b]responsibly[/b], and my concern with this event was the timing.

My original intention had been indeed to contact the organisers, but I wanted to check whether my opinion (which is all it is, right?) was justified, and had the support of other local bikers. The concerns I raised are entirely valid, it seems, as vindicated by the rangers' decision to restrict the areas this event can operate in due to the existing condition of certain trails.

A number of comments have been along the lines of "people bike in the Pentlands all the time and you can't stop them". This is, of course, true and I don't think any of us want to stop people using the hills all year round, but people need to understand that access is granted on responsibility, and if people see an event organised by a national body, in (probably) wet conditions, taking in little-used paths then they will think that it is not irresponsible to use these trails. I think that this wrong! But this is up to the individual to decide, and consider the impact of what they are doing NOW on future years' land use (e.g. fizzer) and attitudes of the land owners.

I think these orienteering events are great and the Pentlands is a great place for it. Unfortunately the Pentlands have suffered from a large increase in MTB use over the last few years and we've also had 2 very wet years. I very much doubt some of the trashed trails will ever recover to their former glory. What is needed now is a plan to actualy repair and improve the trails so that they can sustain the current and future wear rates.

The council or Pentland Hill Rangers don't and will not have the budget or man power to address the errosion. A voluntary group would be a great thing to have that can promote the Pentlands and work with event organisers and local users to the benefit of all. I get the feeling that something like this will be coming in the next year or two as there is a lot of interest in this sort of thing right now. I for one will help out where I can.

No elitism or Nimby attitudes here, just a lot of genuine concern for the area.

I did manage to arrange some path repair days with the Rangers last year which was a success. Unfortunately the rangers are undergoing reorganisation which has made it hard to arrange more but I will persist and will get back to folk when more days get arranged

At present the organiser's comments are swaying me in favour of doing the event rather than being put off enough by the arguments against. He appears to be involved and concerned enough to take the voices on this forum and elsewhere into account when planning the event and in particular checkpoint placement.

As with most things it comes down to balance but I appreciate that everyone will have a different view of what the right balance is on this one.

Living a stone's throw from the Pentlands I am well aware of the erosion issues highlighted on this thread but as a regular Trailquester I am also a huge fan of the concept, the way the events are run and the inclusive nature which encourages more people to get out and ride (and navigate!!).

The scale and location of the Pentlands make it the ideal venue for a Trailquest but as Andy has said there is no ideal time of year (for various reasons). Although March has the potential for certain trails to be wet and at risk the organisers have excellent control over the routes open to riders and as the vast majority or riders stick to the rules at these events then any risk should be mitigated.

There are obvious trails to be OOB like Black Hill, Phantoms, North Castlelaw, etc. but I think it would be a shame to take Maiden's out because of the short section at the junction with Phantom's. Perhaps we could keep it in but mark that section as "push-only"?

The restricted trails open to riders will definitely impact the event but there will still be plenty route choices to be made and it means I may even find a checkpoint outside my house in Colinton... 😀

Robin

it was fine and dry (for the most part) last night, i dunno what you're all whining about.

In case anyone missed it:

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/attn-pentlands-users

So to summarise, the organiser is going to be responsible, there's not going to be many folk doing it relatively speaking and conditions are improving. Calm down, calm down (said in a very un-Scottish Edinburgh accent).

I went up into the Pentlands for a ride today not realising that this event was on. Nice and dry day so I don't think that erosion was a major concern but because it was so nice there were lots of walkers and some of the people doing this event were really racing. Surely an event which encourages people to go as fast as possible round shared tracks is unwise?

Most competitors seemed to be enjoying it rather than competing but a few were going too fast and flying past families out walking with kids. Not a great advert for mountain biking.

Dead bodies & computer glitches apart what a great event in a great area for riding. Thanks to Andy & all who helped to make it possible.

No thanks to moaning whingeing nimby hypocrites who haven't got the balls to come down & insult me in person. Yes you Kenny, skulking behind your keyboard like a good little single-tracker.

Any news on the body? with any luck it's one of the moaners.

Actually after reading Bawbag's latest whinge the time has come to ban mountain biking in the Pentalnds outright.

Dead bodies & computer glitches apart what a great event in a great area for riding. Thanks to Andy & all who helped to make it possible.

No thanks to moaning whingeing nimby hypocrites who haven't got the balls to come down & insult me in person. Yes you Kenny, skulking behind your keyboard like a good little single-tracker.

Any news on the body? with any luck it's one of the moaners.

Actually after reading Bawbag's latest whinge the time has come to ban mountain biking in the Pentalnds outright.

Wow, is that really called for? Wishing death on your fellow forum members?

bigjim, I don't think it was meant that way^^^^^
There was an "incident" near to the venue, the police were in attendance, think it was a suicide...