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Went down there just before the Covid shiz kicked off. Same as the Fox, looks shite now.
People need to remember that this is a singletrack forum and not post doubletrack photos
Exactly.
Ok, bigyan, I'll bite. If you follow the 'It was a green way' argument to its natural conclusion you butt up against the issue of access laws. Now, if we were in Scotland, things would be different, as access rights would allow us to ride (responsibly) wherever you can walk. Therefore - we have the breadth of footpaths across the country to enjoy.
In the rest of the UK, if every doubletrack road is turned into a ramp for gravel bikers, 4x4s and old people you very swiftly realise that the only interesting or demanding places you can ride your bike on are now trail centres. Footpaths - illegal. Green lanes - gravel. Bridleways - currently and regularly resurfaced gravel.
Acts like this are never really about opening out access rights or access to the broader visiting population, but about satisfying a very vocal and often money-spending minority (in this case, w@nkers who drive 4x4 buggies with catless exhausts around the lakes). Contrary to popular belief, walkers don't want every path in the country turned into a towpath. Neither do trail runners, climbers, horse riders (I am all of these, before assumptions arrive).
Filling in stuff like this is just another step in the irritating sanitation of outdoor areas for profit - and something that anyone with an understanding of the British culture of outdoor ethics (don't bring the mountain down to your level, raise your game until you are capable - the same reason we don't bolt climbs in the UK outside of quarried rock) should recoil at. For further reference, see any thread or response to the work of **** the fells.
I get it, money talks - but this is why you set up national park authorities.
Given that the proportion of trails/tracks/paths open to mountain bikers in England is tiny compared with what’s available to walkers, why wouldn’t a mountain biker be frustrated at the sanitising of a good trail? I’m not ready to swap to boring gravel riding, I’m only 51 😉
100% continuity, bang on.
It's bugger all to do with access for all, there's nothing at either end of that track, no parking, nothing, the idea that wheelchair access is the driver for this is about as preposterous as you'll get.
Grizedale forest has more paths and bridleways than you can shake a stick at, there's an incredible amount of options for all users.
I walk and run about as much if not more than I mountainbike these days, and that kind of surface has zero appeal for any activity, horrible, loose, and won't last, a complete waste of quarry work, manpower and carbon emissions.
This is a real shame if it's spreading all around Grizedale. It'd be interesting if anyone can find some of the official reasoning behind this as well as input from forestry, etc. As it has the potential to kill off MTB visitors if it goes on to cover more and more tracks.
Any photos of the Fox ‘inprovements’?
I love that track...
Any photos of the Fox ‘inprovements’?
I love that track…
I rode it before lockdown, and they had fixed the massive water feature before the actual downhill bit starts at the top, which actually is an improvement, and put material down here and there to sort out various bits where it collects water, but overall it wasn't a terrible job - the little rocky bits in the middle were still there. Hopefully it's just that, as any excess gravel will wash off that almost immediately.
All of these trails were byways, so the Highways authority will need to have given the nod to this work, perhaps even paid for it.
the same reason we don’t bolt climbs in the UK outside of quarried rock
Not the case, and the bolt debate in UK climbing is the equivalent of helmet wearing, wheel size and squirrel killing all rolled into one. Let's not go there! 🙂
I rode up the Fox last week and it seemed the bedrock features were largely covered, however I was breathing out my arse and dehydrated, so I'm probably not the most reliable witness.
Certainly reinforces it's position as a climb rather than a descent in my route-planning.
Another classic Lakes descent sanitised/ruined for ... why exactly? 4x4s? Or some other group?
The Fox is/was one of my all time favourites. I've not ridden Parkamoor for a few years but I remember it as a great bit of trail.
Presumably, some organisation has some money to do all this... who are they? What is their aim?
The money must be coming from council taxpayers via the Highways budget, given the status of the track.
I do fear for the descent towards the VC, if this is the approach to their byways.
It has been discussed on LDMBA's FB page, FYI...
Its a road isn't it?
Would you complain about potholes being filled in on the m6?
And the LDMBA post has the same kind of crushingly dull and predictable responses saying "it's a road, get over it snowflake".
Well, if they were in the habit of lobbing 70K (the figure bandied about about Tilberthwaite to Little Langdale) at a track mainly used by walkers and bikers, and 4x4s, rather than spending it fixing their tarmac roads, I might raise an eyebrow.
Council funding settlements are likely to be very hard hit for years to come by recent events. I'm always surprised when they find cash to fix a gravel track like this - this byway doesn't even go anywhere, it ends at the Parkamoor junction - rather than spend it on their surfaced road network.
That’s been well & truly sanitised. Not much more than a dull fire road now. It’ll be lose to climb up on & even more lose not to mention sketchy to come down on.
Bloody ugly as well.
Filling in stuff like this is just another step in the irritating sanitation of outdoor areas for profit – and something that anyone with an understanding of the British culture of outdoor ethics (don’t bring the mountain down to your level, raise your game until you are capable – the same reason we don’t bolt climbs in the UK outside of quarried rock) should recoil at. For further reference, see any thread or response to the work of **** the fells.
+1.
If the 4x4 ****ts use it then it will soon be eroded.
Not the case, and the bolt debate in UK climbing is the equivalent of helmet wearing, wheel size and squirrel killing all rolled into one. Let’s not go there!
Martinhutch; there is no bolt debate for a british climber. The BMC's ethical viewpoint is clear, and it remains so and this standpoint has underpinned the culture of british climbing for the last 120 years. You do not bolt routes that can be climbed traditionally. The only people that suggest otherwise are people trolling for suckers - which I pay you the compliment of assuming you are not.
Anyway - a real shame. More reason to campaign for modern progressive access laws like scotland.
Martinhutch; there is no bolt debate for a british climber. The BMC’s ethical viewpoint is clear, and it remains so and this standpoint has underpinned the culture of british climbing for the last 120 years. You do not bolt routes that can be climbed traditionally.
It was your comment about bolts only on quarried stuff which was the issue. Because, as a local to Malham and Kilnsey, it's totally untrue, obviously. Of course you must also be aware that there are also plenty of quarries in which bolts are verboten, as well. If you wanted to rock up and stick a line of bolts up Green Death at Millstone you'd probably attract some interest.
And there are places where routes which can be climbed traditionally are bolted anyway, such as Giggleswick.
People are still testing the boundaries, it's not entirely settled. I rode down through one of my local quarries the other day and noticed someone had stuck two fresh bolted lines with lower-offs up a short wall with a few lowish grade boulder problems recorded on it. Plus ca change etc 🙂
Ivan
I am 100% confident that my Polish is absolutely shocking compared to your English! Hope you have not taken offence.
Oh and like I wrote previously, it really won't take long for the trail to get back to normal. It's frustrating to see great trails like this improved but as sure as eggs are eggs, most of it will be washed away. Yon big yellow disc in the sky we keep seeing isn't really normal!
Cheers
Sanny
Its a road isn’t it?
Would you complain about potholes being filled in on the m6?
Was it a decision you made just for today to be a complete fanny, or are you always like this?. 🤔
Well at least the virus meant our lakes trip was cancelled this year - maybe in a few years time it will get back to the rocky goodness it used to be
The rocky bits made that a fun way down - so many different lines to take
Always saddens me to see Lakes paths getting this treatment as I've never had the opportunity to ride them. Only been up to the Lakes once in my life from down here in the SE.
To me that is an eroded mess and you can see the widening as people walk around the worst of the erosion. Whats its legal status?
Didn’t realise the gravel bikers had taken over stw.
Get to ****. From what I saw in the video, it hardly looked like a decent trail anyway. A shitload of rocks is no challenge and does nothing for speed or flow.
But above all - MTBing is either done on MTB specific trails at trail centres, cheeky homemade, or it's done on general trails that everyone else uses for a variety of purposes. Those trails aren't yours, so don't get all teary when they get maintained. Trail maintenance is a thing that happens.
the same reason we don’t bolt climbs in the UK outside of quarried rock
Not the same. Rock climbing routes are entirely natural, except quarries. There's nothing natural about that trail or any other - they are made by people for a purpose, which sometimes isn't MTBing unfortunately. In fact given that the trail is artificial it puts it on the same moral status as climbing in a quarry.
In fact given that the trail is artificial it puts it on the same moral status as climbing in a quarry.
And imagine how peeved and indignant you'd be if someone came and hauled your favourite bouldering route out of a quarry.
Ok, bigyan, I’ll bite. If you follow the ‘It was a green way’ argument to its natural conclusion you butt up against the issue of access laws. Now, if we were in Scotland, things would be different, as access rights would allow us to ride (responsibly) wherever you can walk. Therefore – we have the breadth of footpaths across the country to enjoy.
Apologies, I live in Scotland so am spoiled for places to ride and perhaps dont appreciate the value of a road like that as a MTB trail.
Whats its legal status?
The section from High Parkamoor to High Nibthwaite (grid references SD 309926 to SD 294897) is a public road and has presumed rights for mechanically propelled vehicles.
https://www.lakedistrict.gov.uk/visiting/things-to-do/green_roads/green_road_parkamoor
molgrips
Subscriber
Didn’t realise the gravel bikers had taken over stw.
Get to ****. From what I saw in the video, it hardly looked like a decent trail anyway. A shitload of rocks is no challenge and does nothing for speed or flow.
I take it you don't ride the Lakes and your idea of a fun trail is a nice smooth groomed one!
A shitload of rocks is no challenge and does nothing for speed or flow.
🙂
#gravel4life
A shitload of rocks is no challenge and does nothing for speed or flow.
Only if your parents spliced the DNA of Jack Carthy and Gee Atherton to make you.
Get to ****. From what I saw in the video, it hardly looked like a decent trail anyway. A shitload of rocks is no challenge and does nothing for speed or flow.
But above all – MTBing is either done on MTB specific trails at trail centres, cheeky homemade, or it’s done on general trails that everyone else uses for a variety of purposes.
Why are you on a mountain biking forum if you clearly don't actually enjoy or go mountain biking? And no, gravel isn't mountain biking. Neither is riding your turbo trainer.
At least they haven't put metal gates and stiles up like they have in my local woods.
Ok if it is legally a road then the council have an obligation legally to maintain it so it is passable for vehicles and horses do they not?
At least they haven’t put metal gates and stiles up like they have in my local woods.
It's those bloody gap things that narrow at the top that they insist on installing on cycle paths that really annoy the hell out of me.
It's a cycle path, why specifically install infrastructure designed to make it impassable *on* a bike?
It's like installing a stile on a BW.
I road this trail blast summer and enjoyed it.
From a MTB point of view it's now a less good route and to be honest not much cop for a gravel bike either.
On the other hand its legal status is a road which the council are responsible for maintaining. I might prefer that it was a bridleway and left alone but that isn't the situation.
I'd live to know more about kanku's involvement. I try hard not to hate all things commercial in the lakes. Locals need jobs. I also try and be tolerant of motor bikes and 4x4 as there is precious little left for them in the lakes.
But putting the 2 things together in Kanku does annoy me. They put a fair amount of effort into advertising their off road days and they are by far the most common 4x4 to be seen in the lakes. It just doesn't seem sustainable
So, has anyone of you actually ridden it (or the fox) since the "sacrilege" took place?
I've lived in the lakes on and off for the last 30 odd years, and seen a lot of this sanitation work going on. I dont really get it, but it seems to be the way that the national park is moving. The paths see an unreal amount of traffic, and so some repair work is inevitable. Big fills like this are questionable, especially as most of it will disappear into the beck or the bottom of the descent with a shitty winter.
Im not trying to yuk anyones yum here, dont get me wrong - However (unpopular opinion probably), all those "classic" lakes rides like parkamoor, kentmere, borrowdale bash etc are all massively over rated.
They might have been fun and challenging in 1995 on sketchy 1995 tech, but on a modern bike they are mostly super easy. Leaving difficulty out of it, the descents themselves dont really offer that much fun for the amount of effort/road/gates to do them - parkamoor for example, bit of bed rock, but mostly loose gravel meh. Garburn pass, just bouncing down a big ol pile of rocks. Top of kentmere has been wrecked by people dragging their brakes down peat bogs in wet weather and is just a pile of ruts that gets bigger every year.
Dont get me wrong - theres amazing riding here, but bang for buck, parkamoor is not among them.
However you view it, it'll be back to normal in a couple of years - in the meantime, try something else!
my view is the same mate, live here and hardley ever ride any of those you mention as there is so much other better stuff to ride. also like you say parkamoor will soon be back to normal, that stuff wont last long.
Parkamoor was one of my first lakes descents, around 2011, aye it's not techy, but it's one of those that are a nice transition for some, an introduction to lakes type riding, I'd say the same about garburn and castle crag to be honest.
I've a certain fondness for it because of that.
@fizzer
Yes, this afternoon. Rode up it, it's totally shit. Harder to ride up than the bedrock it's covered. It's not graded stone like a path, it's quarry spoil that ranges from dinner plate size down and moves all over the place when you're on it. Shit for biking on, shit for walking on. The farmer uses the track over bethecar, why the **** would he drop down to Nibthwaite and climb back up again? If it is kankku who've kicked this off then they're total knobbers and if they've knackered the fox too then they're dodeca knobbers. Quite a few local riders, who use it as a good way in and out of the forest are pissed off about it and quite rightly.
Why are you on a mountain biking forum if you clearly don’t actually enjoy or go mountain biking? And no, gravel isn’t mountain biking. Neither is riding your turbo trainer.
Ooh, the trolls are out today 🙂 I'd show you my Strava if I gave a shit what you think 😉
A good trail has fast corners in it. We have loads of strips of rock down hillsides in South Wales, and to me they are a chore and a waste of altitude. Give me a sinuous singletrack ribbon any day.
pissed off about it and quite rightly
Every reason to be disappointed, no reason to be pissed off.
As far as Kankku go I do wonder if some pissed up idiot on a stag do* has caused a bit too much trouble with a land owner and this is their penance/way of making it go away.
@molgrips one of the best bits on the track was a section of zigzags with drops, that's gone
Quite a few local riders, who use it as a good way in and out of the forest are pissed off about it and quite rightly.
And quite a few are not.
Ive never ridden the trail in question but surely if its a bridleway then it should be suitable for a horse to use without breaking a leg.