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People don’t give driving the attention it deserves. The amount of folk who are doing something else whilst driving is staggering.
This time of year is particularly bad for it - clocks gone back = lots of people driving in the dark for the first time since about March (bear in mind most driving is pretty local journeys - commute, school run, shopping etc). The number of cars with only one working headlight and the darkness also makes it very easy to see the glare of a mobile phone screen.
Saw one guy with his phone mounted in sat nav position except the screen didn't have a map on it, he was watching the football! And another guy today with his phone dead centre in the screen (this one was on map display but how the hell he could see the actual road is a mystery to me!)
Cities that don't work out how to encourage people onto bikes and public transport will need to live with ever increasing congestion and pollution.
Those city centres will suffer as people find that they don't want to sit in a traffic jam in order to cruise around a giant multi-storey looking for a spot and then go to a dying city centre.
Meanwhile cities that work out how to make it safe and enjoyable to cycle into will grow and thrive.
Cities that don’t work out how to encourage people onto bikes and public transport will need to live with ever increasing congestion and pollution.
Those city centres will suffer as people find that they don’t want to sit in a traffic jam in order to cruise around a giant multi-storey looking for a spot and then go to a dying city centre.
Meanwhile cities that work out how to make it safe and enjoyable to cycle into will grow and thrive.
Very well said!
I watched the programme and wasn't surprised by the content (I also regularly check out Near This Of The Day on road.cc) but actually think the title was, hopefully, quite clever, as in I hope it attracted the attention of enough motorists and that it will moderate some of their attitudes.
I was somewhat disappointed about the survey Panorama commissioned as there wasn't much detail of what other questions where asked
i.e. did they ask any questions such as, would motorists be happy to sit in denser traffic if all the bike commuters switched to (solo) car use instead?
Or questions about vulnerability of cyclists or pedestrians?
The guy taking photos and confronting road users was at the other extreme, I can’t see what he will really achieve long term and he may well meet someone that will do him harm.
Local to me. On a road i've ridden many times. This guy went out of his way to do something about it. He wasn't then killed intentionally by someone that knew who he was AFAIK, but when i stood toe to toe with a truck driver who nearly mowed me down he said that this guy was "a c*$t who got what he deserved"
Probably read this.
Cameron Frewer - The Most Pointless Cycling Death Of All Time
This article is pants. The 'journalist' (seriously he can't be a professional journalist).
That said, i do believe that I get given heaps of space by 99% of the drivers and that it's got better in the past few years - since Cameron died.
This article is pants. The ‘journalist’ (seriously he can’t be a professional journalist).
That entire site is a fine example of anti cyclist drivel. I would delete the link rather than use it as a source for anything.
Not watched it yet but like many have regular interactions that aren't too pleasant, including a very heated exchange at a friends house with a bast**d who proudly claimed he tired to drive us off the road! I was restrained in several ways.
But getting back to the what to do issue, yes we should refer to "people on bikes", build infrastructure, go to council meetings, create and participate in family orientated critical mass events and much more. Perhaps the BC relationship with Shell could be used to some advantage. An awareness campaign at every fuel station, warnings on receipts etc. Get a Top Gear episode where the presenters are riding bikes and passed by a few different vehicles at different speeds and judge there reaction.
I'm a helmet wearer but do remember some (Canadian I think) research that showed that riders who wore helmets and glasses weren't perceived as human (more robotic etc). Part of it also showed that those riders who had red beam/arms with flags on the back to increase visibility were driven closer to as it implied they had a safe space. This was twenty odd years ago but it always had a ring of truth to it for me. Following this I never wear glasses on the road as making eye contact at junctions does seem to have some effect.
The number of cars with only one working headlight and the darkness
The number of cars driving round with no headlights on is as bad, if not worse. The amount of cars with just DRLs on is unreal. One of the worst motoring innovations IMHO.
Edit: for balance all bar one motor vehicles gave me loads of room on my commute, waiting back at a distance til it was safe to pass or I turned off etc, but yep, still has a van pass within mm's of me and swerve back in front before slamming his brakes on.
Wishful thinking but I expect BC have all the Shell Money earmarked for wind tunnel time or buying jiffy bags.
Got four minutes in. Saw Rod Liddle’s face appear.
I assume Nigel Farage must have been busy that day? He is on every other BBC programme.
I had no idea who Rod Liddle is but he seems a bit of a dick.
He's a domestic abuswer who once wrote that he couldn't be a teacher as he wouldn't be able to restrain himself from shagging kids. Still, I'm sure his views on cycling are fascinating.
Following this I never wear glasses on the road as making eye contact at junctions does seem to have some effect.
I’m very wary of that since being taught as a learner motorcyclist to look at car wheels not drivers faces. The number of motorbike riders that get hit by cars and afterwards say “they looked straight at/through me then pulled out anyway”
Happened to me once on a push bike and I had my left leg off the pedal bracing for impact then heard the Abs activate.
I did eventually watch it, as expected it was mostly fluff IMO, half an hour of (mostly urban focussed in that there London) anecdotes and dash/helmet-cam rage baiting. There wasn't really much substance or solutions on offer and maybe it was a bit much to expect that.
That section with the partners of the two blokes that were killed was a hard watch.
Yes, but it wasn't given enough prominence either (IMO), the very real results of Automotive bellendery weren't really examined enough for me (can they ever be?)...
Liddle's contributions were clearly quite heavily edited down to keep the amount of vitriol in check I reckon...
He’s a domestic abuswer who once wrote that he couldn’t be a teacher as he wouldn’t be able to restrain himself from shagging kids. Still, I’m sure his views on cycling are fascinating.
😀 😀
His comments were sort of interesting, in so much as he effectively undermines much of the carefully curated narrative from the "Motoring Lobby's" cycling complaints department by illustrating that what really sits behind a lot of the hate as the sort of petty simmering resentment of generally angry, lazy people who project their own anxieties and perceived failings onto people on bicycles. He seems to have an issue with anyone displaying what he see's as Environmental or Fitness "Virtues" and of course by being on a bicycle you are apparently broadcasting a whole spectrum of implied messages, which Liddle (and I guess by extension lots of other people?) take issue with. It's not so much that he hates people on bicycles, he seems to hate everything for which he thinks they stand; the "green agenda", toxically positive health and fitness notions, the implied modern middle-classness of even owning a bicycle...
One of the other interviewees made an interesting point addressing the fella making the program, he noted that those angry at cyclist don't see someone pedalling to do the shops, or someone's teenage daughter, they see people like himself or the journo; MAMILs on posh bikes, clad in Lycra unintentionally projecting their middleclass privilege. That sort of tallies with Liddle's ranting and lots of other people I've spoken with over the years. I think a fair chunk of the "issue" isn't really anything to do with bicycles, it's the age-old British habit of seeing "Class" and all its derived inequalities and envy in just about everything...
It's interesting that they mostly spoke to relatively middleclass bicycle users, and their point of reference for the "Motoring perspective" seemed to mostly be Van drivers in busy Urban locations (Plus one rage baiting journalist, who doesn't really believe in anything other than directing his simmering hate towards everyone, so should maybe be disregarded)...
So Yeah, if there's one kernel of "truth" to be teased out of that half hour of telly-babble, it's that behind all of this confected conflict are the same old resentments and jealousy that fuel pretty much all other discord in our society... Thus following Rule 1 still seems to be the best available option...
Education goes so far. The ones who are willing to watch/listen and take it in will change. The rest need to be dealt with by enforcement.
Absolutely this. Nob ends will always be nob ends and there is no amount of education that will change that. I think what we need to see is more consequences to poor behaviour, sometimes people need more stick than carrot so proportionate fines and/or points on license should be used. Example - I often fail to notice that I am exceeding the speed limit in the car, earlier this year I got two speeding tickets within a month of each other, I now pay a lot more attention to my speed. I was of course outraged and blamed the police for profiteering as it was never my fault, but the reality is that my behaviour has changed for the better.
Edit: This should apply to cyclists as well as car drivers, for example a fine for jumping a red light. I know it’s almost impossible to police, but my point is that there needs to be balance otherwise there will be outrage.
Liddle (and I guess by extension lots of other people?) take issue with. It’s not so much that he hates people on bicycles, he seems to hate everything for which he thinks they stand; the “green agenda”, toxically positive health and fitness notions, the implied modern middle-classness of even owning a bicycle…
The health thing is just a projection of self-loathing, as is the whining about others having a social conscience. Man just doesn't like the implication that cyclists are fitter, happier or care about others, because it shines a light into his own soul.
I suppose in normal circumstances it would simply be pitiable, but he has a media platform to broadcast his personality flaws and allow his audience to justify behaving in a similar way.
Edit: This should apply to cyclists as well as car drivers, for example a fine for jumping a red light. I know it’s almost impossible to police, but my point is that there needs to be balance otherwise there will be outrage.
Should we also fine pedestrians for crossing before the green man comes on, would that be balanced?
When and where cyclists should be fined is up for debate, but let's not pretend they are equal to, or pose the same threat, as motorised traffic (which is the only reason those lights are there in the first place). Any punishment should be evidence based and reflect the danger posed by the crime (in this case, specifically in relation to bicycles).
Comparisons between people on 10kg bicycles and 2000kg vehicles capable of travelling 10x the speed are ridiculous, and reinforcing this idea of equality between two completely unequal groups is what perpetuates the outrage you speak of, imo.
Can anyone imagine this kind of debate goes on in the Netherlands? Does anyone know whether there’s a noisy Dutch pro-car lobby demanding exclusive access to our towns and cities and arguing that the quality of life would improve if they got rid of all those bloody cyclists?
I doubt it.
giving a platform to someone like Liddle was a mistake,he is a real piece of work.
Nasty nasty piece of work. Over the yrs penned many a dodgy opinion on everything from misoyny to racism to homophobia. An objective & informed view from him you will not get. Surprised he can even find work as a hack. For that reason alone I'm out!
I’ll never understand the thought process to nearly or attempt to kill / maim another human being purely because their mode of transport slows them down by a small % on their journey.
Probably the only thing I’d agree with on the whole programme was it can be a pain when stuck behind a group ride. And I say that as a roadie who rides in group rides on a Sunday. But most group rides try to keep to quiet roads and allow vehicles through when possible/safe for us to do so.
The people who do the ridiculous close passes or purposefully pull out on cyclists, they should have been interviewed and asked why they thought it appropriate that they kill a human being to save a few seconds.
I’d agree with an earlier comment that calling us cyclists automatically puts us into a category. We are human beings who opt for a different mode of transport, either for commuting or leisure purposes. The vast majority of us Mamils are considerate to other road users. This is in part due to us being incredibly aware of our vulnerability on the road.
The programme showed a bus close pass that was horrendous. The driver and the bus company should have been interviewed by the cyclist and their children. With the children saying “you where mm’s away from murdering my dad purely because he happened to be on a bike”. It’s absolutely insane that we have to even discuss this type of position.
Some people are scum. Over the years I’ve encountered a few on the road. I’ve actually had someone stop their car, get out, as I’m still clipped in on one foot, they then attempted to push me into oncoming (40/50 mph) traffic in the other lane, and yes he checked that there was oncoming traffic when he pushed me. I went to the police and nothing happened, but I had no reg details.
What I’ve always found bizarre is that most people don’t mind being delayed by folk on a horse, but a cyclist they have no qualms of killing or causing serious life changing injuries.
What I’ve always found bizarre is that most people don’t mind being delayed by folk on a horse
I think the sort of person who is upset by cyclist is also upset by horses. The difference though is stupid driving near a horse is highly liable to end in tears for both sides. They know the limits of their little steel and glass castles.
Can anyone imagine this kind of debate goes on in the Netherlands?
There was certainly debate when they started taking road space away from motor vehicles in the 70s. By all accounts there was some strong push back, even then (in a very different environment to what we have today).
The Netherlands isn't perfect by any means. Road cyclists are disliked in the same way they are here, and if you wander on to a road where somebody thinks you shouldn't be, you'll be punished - I've had some of my worst (very much deliberate) close passes there.
The difference is in the infrastructure and the cultivated attitude that everybody has the right to travel safely, regardless of transport.
I stopped riding on the road years ago following a hospitalisation from a guy who "just didnt see me" on a roundabout in broad daylight.
The thing that i really struggle with is why there is so much hate? It can't really bother people that someone in the city centre may jump a red light can it?? Can it really be envy as Cookea suggests? I feel it's as if we have been forced into this position by the media (yeah them again) and are now just acting as per some tribal box we never subscribed to.
The thing that i really struggle with is why there is so much hate? It can’t really bother people that someone in the city centre may jump a red light can it?? Can it really be envy as Cookea suggests?
I think part of it is "othering" - people are conditioned to hate/fear "others" who are not "them"
(see also, old people complaining about youngsters "hanging around" for example)
Part of it is jealousy - they've been sold this dream of freedom and power and status with their car (and even now adverts show crossover SUV things zipping around empty streets while pedestrians stop and stare). Reality is you're stuck in the same traffic as everyone else, your brand new SUV is no more capable than the battered old For Fiesta in front of you and there are Others who are going faster than you! Who haven't paid road tax! The freeloading bastards!
And part of it is just the generally selfish attitude that so many people here in the UK seem to have. Me me me, all these Others are in my way, doing better than me, not bound by the same laws as me, I'll show them...
Toxic mix in the wrong hands.
The thing that i really struggle with is why there is so much hate?
I don't really know either but it's not the roads that cause it imo, it's just where it comes out. I mean, driving is rarely any pleasure and rush hour traffic is miserable but it's just dull mainly.
One thing someone said that stuck with me is that in a society with a combination of so much to aspire to yet so many with little to no hope of much at all there's a lot of people lacking self worth or a reason to have pride in themselves, or having a feeling that others look down on them. One way to try to reclaim some self esteem is to put others down. The classroom bully mentality. Or tribalism - illogically polarised politics, racism, joining in with common low denominator attitudes etc. 'If I'm with these guys I must be ok'.
I expect it happens to some extent everywhere but I find it easy to see why the UK has this problem or why the roads become an outlet for it. A lot of the media and the current Govt make the most out of it.
The difference though is stupid driving near a horse is highly liable to end in tears for both sides.
Personally, I disagree. I don't think that much thought is going into it. Going slow and wide around horses is just a thing that is embedded in society, in exactly the same way as it should be for bikes. People watch their parents being careful around horses and close passing bikes for years before they start driving. Without any perspective from the other side then their actions would never have reason to be any different (one could argue the driving test should do this...)
I don’t really know either but it’s not the roads that cause it imo, it’s just where it comes out
for most people, its where they are going to meet the "others".
your family, neighbours, colleagues, school run, supermarket, pub, leisure shopping - all mean you spend time with people who are, in some way at least, like you. only on the roads do most encounter a true cross section of society.
I don’t really know either but it’s not the roads that cause it imo, it’s just where it comes out. I mean, driving is rarely any pleasure and rush hour traffic is miserable but it’s just dull mainly.
Disney did a film about it as far back as 1950!
Can anyone imagine this kind of debate goes on in the Netherlands? Does anyone know whether there’s a noisy Dutch pro-car lobby demanding exclusive access to our towns and cities and arguing that the quality of life would improve if they got rid of all those bloody cyclists?
I imagine there was in the 70s when they started the push to get people out of cars. Easy to forget that the Dutch cycling nirvana is a relatively recent thing.
Be interesting to know how they achieved the initial change in direction and mindsets.
Overtaking horses on the road is interesting because drivers will still 'close pass' a horse drawn vehicle, but very rarely a horse being ridden. I suspect it's because most large animals have a mind of their own and will maybe rear up or kick out at something passing at speed and too close.
As a pedestrian, cycling person, a driver and in the past a horse rider, by far the worst people on the road are motorised users.
Curious how many posters haven't or (proudly) won't watch the episode but feel qualified to post paragraphs about it. Spoiler: in making assumptions, you're part of the problem.
On the back of this thread I watched this at lunchtime. I was expecting the worst and honestly, it was as close to 'balanced' as I could have hoped for. There was lots of footage of bellendery whether two wheels or four.
I found it hard to sympathise with the lad midway who got taken out on a mini-roundabout. It looked a nasty collision but as far as I could tell both cyclist and motorist carved through on the wrong side of the road.
The anti-cyclist poster boy gammon they wheeled out could have been worse (or was heavily edited). He made a couple of reasonable points (eg, insurance) but overall he didn't come out of that looking well.
As a pedestrian, cycling person, a driver and in the past a horse rider, by far the worst people on the road are motorised users.
As a pedestrian, cycling person, a driver and in the past a motorbike rider, by far the worst people on the road are people.
Shitbags come in many forms. Their chosen form of transport is largely immaterial, potential for harm aside.
I found it hard to sympathise with the lad midway who got taken out on a mini-roundabout. It looked a nasty collision but as far as I could tell both cyclist and motorist carved through on the wrong side of the road.
Or a cyclist was trying to evade a car essentially coming the wrong way round a roundabout?
The point he made about "making eye contact" was the interesting bit for me.
I was originally taught that you eyeball the driver, but later that you look at the front wheel instead (far more logical), it's interesting that people still pickup these same flawed road survival techniques. At the same time, if you have ROW (as he did) you shouldn't need to have to second guess the stupidity levels of someone supposedly trained and licensed to drive a car on the roads...
Shitbags come in many forms. Their chosen form of transport is largely immaterial, potential for harm aside.
The potential for harm is a rather large factor for me. As previously mentioned in my opinion anyone who fails the test is likely to do it regardless of mode of transport and hence I go with wanting them on the least dangerous form. Ideally on foot but failing that cycling.
More cash
The point he made about “making eye contact” was the interesting bit for me.
I was originally taught that you eyeball the driver, but later that you look at the front wheel instead (far more logical), it’s interesting that people still pickup these same flawed road survival techniques.
Making eye contact isn't flawed, it can help you anticipate; if the driver hasn't looked they haven't seen you" watching wheels is a good idea but it can only tell you what the vehicle is doing not what it may do. Watching the wheels wouldn't have helped that cyclist one bit, the only thing that could have helped him was slowing and anticipating the car wouldn't stop. Mini roundabouts are a nightmare, I generally give way to everyone until I have seen them slow/stop.
A mini roundabout a week or so ago.
Which reminds me, need to change the timestamp after I put the new battery in
I was expecting the worst and honestly, it was as close to ‘balanced’ as I could have hoped for. There was lots of footage of bellendery whether two wheels or four.
The 3 minute piece on the national news tried to be balanced. They showed a person on a bike being knocked to the ground and his bike thrown several feet in the air. Another person was forced off the road into the verge. They then talked to family of two cyclists that had been killed. Finally we moved on to the bad cyclists and showed a rider cutting a junction making a car slow down slightly and another crossing the road quite close to lorry. The bellendery is no way equivalent.
your family, neighbours, colleagues, school run, supermarket, pub, leisure shopping – all mean you spend time with people who are, in some way at least, like you. only on the roads do most encounter a true cross section of society.
Or on the train/tube, people don't tend to get train rage though unless it's late at the weekend and they're drunk.
Agree there's a lot of social group stuff going on on the roads though, it's a good point. And it's the protective box and transitional thing in driving that makes cars such an outlet for people's pent up frustrations. Someone can vent then carry on with no consequences. So you know the ones who do get out of the car are either really slow thinkers or likely physical aggression sorts (or worst, both).
Thanks for that TJ
Mrs fazzini doesn't like me being on the bike on the road as she sees how other drivers behave towards other cyclists. I try to limit road-time as much as possible, but commuting its unavoidable for chunks of the journey. Door to door its 4 miles but all on road. I often purposefully ride twice that distance each way to avoid being on the road as much as I can. YMMV. Again, for balance, I had a pleasant door to door commute this morning with space given to me by all drivers.
Making eye contact isn’t flawed, it can help you anticipate; if the driver hasn’t looked they haven’t seen you” watching wheels is a good idea but it can only tell you what the vehicle is doing not what it may do.
Without getting into a debate of "road craft" staring at someone's eyeballs doesn't tell you anything about their intent or likely future actions, their head maybe pointing in your direction the photons bounced off you might be hitting their retina, people still mange to look right through people on bikes or on foot all the time.
You can tell a lot more about what a vehicle is likely to do next by looking at the vehicle not the operator's head, but nobody can see the into the future...
staring at someone’s eyeballs doesn’t tell you anything about their intent or likely future actions
It does, it tells you they have no chance of seeing you if they haven't looked in your direction, of course it doesn't tell you if they have seen you. It certainly provides information.
One of the very interesting things on my recent european tour was seeing the different attitudes to cyclists in different countries.
Ireland - -on narrow roads car drivers coming the other way would move over as much as possible but not stop giving you the choice to go thru the gap or throw yourself into the hedge. Several cars overtaking nearly had head on collisions with cars coming the other way but no overtaking cars came too close
Low countries - you had priority and of course good cycle infrastructure
France and Spain - - lots of space given on the road
Not one single aggressive close pass in 3000 miles in Ireland and Europe, plenty in a few hundred miles in the UK
I think the UK issues stem from 2 things mainly:
1: Cars are sold and seen as tools to give you freedom but the reality is congestion and frustration. Car drivers then see bikes sailing past when they are stuck in traffic and hate the cyclists for having for "free" what they are told they will have but actually do not have - ie freedom
2: - classic "othering" Decades long attacks on cyclists as a pest on the road. "cyclists" are not seen as human and thus its psycologically easier to ignore them. This leads to poor behaviour from cyclists as when you feel you are not a part of society then you feel less bound by its laws and thats creats a negative feedback loop. cyclists become a target for frustration
I actually believe the usage of helmets in the UK does not help - you are not seen as a human but as a pesky cyclist. I get less agrro from car drivers when not wearing a helmet
In much of Europe ( but not ireland) far more people have cycled and / or know someone who cycles so cyclists are not seen as a separate group. In Ireland I put it down to a generally less angry and hurried population
Making eye contact also makes them realise you are human and its much harder psychologically to threaten someone who has made eye contact
I actually believe the usage of helmets in the UK does not help – you are not seen as a human but as a pesky cyclist. I get less agrro from car drivers when not wearing a helmet
I think there's some truth in that when helmets go along with lycra and all the gear. There's research on passing distances with or without a helmet but I wonder what the difference is with roadie kit and race bike Vs casual clothing/average bike, both with helmets?
I remember some stats about drivers seeing the more 'Pro looking' riders as more skilled/experienced so not needing as much space but I think that was related to helmets also, the perception of the rider being safer whatever happened. Wrong but the effect is there.
Jamso - it was a very limited piece of research - pointing the direction for further investigation but not enough to draw conclusions. It could either be " they are more skilled so need less space" or " they are not human"
7 of us rode off a ferry in Zeebrugge, we then cycled across Belgium on a week long trip. Absolutely no problems. Every driver was considerate and careful around us. Fantastic cycling infrastructure.
A week later We're sitting at the ferry terminal, the border guy comes up and ushers us forward to get passports checked and be ready to embark for the homeward ferry. The British chap sitting in his suv at the front of the queue has a fit at us 'pushing in'. We were not holding him up, we weren't in his way and we weren't taking space on the ferry from any driver in that queue. I thought this driver was going to have a heart attack. There is a long way to go to change the attitude of many.
Interesting that the RAC chap (who is a recreational cyclist) says their RAC driving instructors teach learner drivers about the highway code rules around cycling.
Attitudes can be changed. When I first started cycling in Edinburgh buses were a real menace. Now they are some of the best behaved drivers towards cyclists.
they received training on interacting with cyclists and what happened was that being kinder to cyclists also worked to reduce their frustrations and make it easier and nicer for them so it became a positive feedback cycle.
this is the training video