[Closed] STW Engineers - anyone know anything about oil/viscocity etc etc? (Forks)

Why not just use lighter fork oil? And it won't make it better, there'll just be less of it (damping)

I was thinking use slightly more volume (and finer oil) for smoother operation?

I rate this thread 10 out of 10 so far.

Thinner oil reduces damping - both rebound and compre4ssion. More oil will increase "ramp up" as the air gap is reduced. How much depends on how big the air gap is and the design of the forks

How can I improve the damping on my Pikes (coil) then? Shim stack etc?

Chucking £170 (PUSHd) at the forks would mean I might as well get a set of Fox 36 floats.

What exactly is the problem with the fork?

Veg oil will polymerise when exposed to heat/oxygen- and make your fork sticky. At least get the proper stuff for the job.

I think (well, I know!) he's got some pretty radical ideas floating about with regard those forks right now! 😉 😀

What exactly is the problem with the fork?

I like tinkering. See if I can improve the performance of the Pikes. Surely the fork designers will have found an oil that works better (but they found the forks need tearing down/oil changing more frequently?)- I wouldnt mind that as a trade off for better performance.

First question, are you still running them with the wrong spring like you was a few weeks ago? If you spring rate is wrong for your weight you cant make up for that with oils and damping.

Second question.
When you say improve, what are you looking to do?

Faster, slower, soft at the start, hard at the end of the stroke? you have to know what your after first.

In my opinion there will be very marginal imrpovements by throwing lots of time and effort & £££ at them and unless you really rock on the bike the biggest effect you will get is a mental one.

To answer the question of what oil.
You cant use any other oil in forks other than fork oil (ok automatic transmission fluid is similar) as other oils aeriate too much and will **** everything up.

First question, are you still running them with the wrong spring like you was a few weeks ago?

Well, I've just sent him a firm spring to replace his X-firm, but I doubt he's had chance to try it yet.....

First question, are you still running them with the wrong spring like you was a few weeks ago? If you spring rate is wrong for your weight you cant make up for that with oils and damping.

Second question.
When you say improve, what are you looking to do?

Faster, slower, soft at the start, hard at the end of the stroke? you have to know what your after first.

Improve them on fast successive hits/stop them being overwhelmed.

In my opinion there will be very marginal imrpovements by throwing lots of time and effort & £££ at them and unless you really rock on the bike the biggest effect you will get is a mental one.

I know PUSHd will ultimately make me 'think' the forks are vastly better but I dont believe they will be for that much money.

as other oils aeriate too much and will **** everything up.

Then he needs to try that before messing about with anything else, first trick of tuning anything is 1 thing at a time so you know where you are.

My bet is once the spring rate is right, the rest will fall into place without resorting to using Jojoba & Walnut oil in the fork. 🙂

Aeriate, means the oil will have microscopic air bubbles in it instead of remaining a constant fluid. Just stick to proper fork oil, Motorbike stuff is fine and cuts costs.

Despite what the book sugests as the right spring for your weight we assertained last time that x firm was too stiff and medium was too soft for you and your riding, give PP's firm one a try (intended) before you mess with anything else.

Note to self: Do not buy 2nd hand forks from Hora...

Note to self: Do not buy 2nd hand forks from Hora...

😆 I haven't touched them yet.

Saying that I removed the lowers, inspected, cleaned and re lubed the Lyriks that are on their way to Peter Poddy..That was circa 2-3months ago and they've been spot on since 😛

as other oils aeriate too much and will **** everything up.

You mean get passed the seals? Ah.

No that means the oil will foam/froth up and not stay where it's supposed to be.

I've been using fully synth motor oil lately on the forks I've worked on and they all feel realy slick, was recommended by the Enduro fork seals people.

Improve them on fast successive hits/stop them being overwhelmed.

Honest you shouldnt mess with the damping until your spring rate is right.

Aerating oil turns to foam not liquid and stops damping so your fork turns into a pogo stick

Improve them on fast successive hits/stop them being overwhelmed.

Still not clear what you mean - are they packing down thus becoming less sensitive or becoming bouncy?

Get the right spring for you first. Then once you have the correct sag and the correct travel set up the damping. Many of the bikes I see being ridden have badly set up damping. Turn the poplock off completely as you set up the damping - you want IMO the minimum damping that controls the fork. However a lot of this is about feel and preference.

If you cannot get enough damping with the stock oil then go to a heavier oil. thicker oil will increase all damping - compression as well as rebound and high speed as well as low speed

I think the pikes are a bit crude - my old ones are anyway. If you want more sophisticated damping then you need an expert to reshim them.

i'll take tinsy's wise words then I'll investigate the fully synthetic route of schrickvr6's. What weight have you been using and have you worked on Pikes yet?

Note to self: Do not buy 2nd hand forks from Hora...

PLEASE don't say that! 😉

Bound to be a mash up of stuff from the kitchen held together with an assortment of rounded out bolts... Nice. 😉

Yeah I've used it in a few Pikes, Rebas and my 36/32s. 15wt in the lowers and either 5wt in the MoCo or a blend of the two.

schrickvr6 could I send my Pikes to you next Monday for a fee?

You can get changes in damping by running thinner oil and the adjusters further towards closed, or thicker oil and the adjusters fully open. The ammoutn and type of change would be dependant on how the adjuster works. Is it a orifice that bypasses a shim stack, or a shim stack that bypasses an orifice, or a variable sized orifice, or a shim stack above an orifice and the adjuster is controling its height etc.

Don't think allong the lines of 'I want a less wollowy mid stroke" etc etc, try and think of a specific situation the forks are struggling in, is it in a corner? A very fast set of braking bumps? A drop?

For example the push upgrade reduces the high speed (i.e. when the forks almost fully compresed) rebound, making it more like a pogo stick over repeated hits, but still with enough low speed rebound damping to stop it toping out. Only relavent if your current fork is incapable of rebounding fast enough without topping out.

I've heard of folk modifying the moco cart to a shimmed damper over on ridemonkey. If you're into that stuff then it could be nice to play with some shims. At your weight im guessing the damper will need more damping.
The problem with pikes is its very hard to adjust the damping with the stock controls. The blue knob is hard to set at a constant setting (unlike boxxer) as it just seems to flap around or get knocked, and the gold adjustor simply sets the point at which the fork blows into the pre-set hsc circuit. You could knock up something to keep the blue dial where it should be and then tinker with the hsc circuit?
Oh and oil viscosity is an interesting one as rockshox 5wt is rebranded Torco 7wt oil. In suspension fluid it would seem not all manufactures are reading from the same page...ie viscosity shouldnt be judged by the oil wt, but by the cSt@40 value. RS 5wt has a cSt of 16...pretty light. I use silkolene pro rsf oils, so to get that i would have to mix 82% 2.5wt/18% 5wt.

STOP.

Do not put veggy oil, 3 in 1 or any other random oils in your forks, you might as well throw in warm butter for the good it will do.

Use proper fork oil, its about £7 a litre from mx shops and you will use about an 8th of that.

Keep the levels (as in the amount) of oil pretty much exactly as the manual says... too little and you will have no damping at all for part of the stroke. too much and you may cause hydraulic lock out, which wont have any blow off valve like your normal lockout and could potentially bugger your forks good and proper.

if you want your forks to be less wooden try lowering the oil weight a notch or two, this should speed things up. you can mix oils from the same company normally... to make a 10wt for example out of a 5 and a bit of 15. i really wouldnt recommend mixing different brands.

go a small amount at a time. swapping from 15 to 5 wt straight off is likely to feel shite.

hope this helps ya mate.

stuartanicholson- I cant find that thread using the search function

Just found her...
http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166577
(assuming its the same for a pike as ive never stripped the damper down in a pike)

schrickvr6 could I send my Pikes to you next Monday for a fee?

Nothing helps Hora he just does not listen, I have given up now I wont post on another of your threads Hora.

He hasnt even ridden them with the right spring yet. ❓

What does 'wooden' mean in this context? Compression damping too firm?

pypdjl - Member
Note to self: Do not buy 2nd hand [s]forks[/s] from Hora...

On 'another forum' there was a sticky with that exact message 😕

What does 'wooden' mean in this context? Compression damping too firm?

Stiff, lifeless, unreactive. Not plush. This is using the compression at full anti-clockwise and with the floodgate both off and on/open.

tinsy- I am listening. I am trying to run before I can walk though.

I'll put the right spring in first 🙂 Oils is a later mod..

I'll put the right spring in first

what spring are you on then?

Also, how much sag do you get when standing on the pedals with legs and elbows bent in the 'attack' position as if you were about to hit some big rocks?

Over 90kg you almost certainly want to be on x-firm unless you ride a chopper and have no weight on the bars

100kg- On a Blur 4x or 456. I tend be over the BB/rear.

In motocross circles in the 80's and early nineties which is when I had a passing involvement in this there was a drive to have the softest springs you dare, I think people always make the mistake of going too stiff.

In motocross circles in the 80's and early nineties which is when I had a passing involvement in this there was a drive to have the softest springs you dare, I think people always make the mistake of going too stiff.

Ok ok Tinsy! 🙂

Is this a ploy to drag me back onto the thread?

toys19 has naff all to do with me, though I did race then, but certainly never heard of that one.

Its always been about setting sag, and if you cant acheive that with the std spring then you need a different one. No rocket science in it.

Here is a true story about suspension and all the guff that can be associated with it.

I remeber a day probably about 82-3 when Aragosta shocks were becoming quite popular and their was a small crowd all boinging an RM up and down in the paddock and saying the age old things like plush, smooth, progressive bla blah blah, we was parked quite close by and my dad said OH thats nothing you want to try our bike we had a blacksmith temper the spring for us, next thing you know we got the same crowed OOHING and AHHING over a bog stock but well setup standard shock 😀

Improve them on fast successive hits/stop them being overwhelmed.

Whether its worth it to you, well, stick some Tesco Sunflower Oil in and see how you go. Got to be Tesco though, ASDA stuff breaks down to fast and the Morrisons stuff is inconsistant.

tinsy - Member

Is this a ploy to drag me back onto the thread?

toys19 has naff all to do with me, though I did race then, but certainly never heard of that one.

Its always been about setting sag, and if you cant acheive that with the std spring then you need a different one. No rocket science in it.

Here is a true story about suspension and all the guff that can be associated with it.

I remeber a day probably about 82-3 when Aragosta shocks were becoming quite popular and their was a small crowd all boinging an RM up and down in the paddock and saying the age old things like plush, smooth, progressive bla blah blah, we was parked quite close by and my dad said OH thats nothing you want to try our bike we had a blacksmith temper the spring for us, next thing you know we got the same crowed OOHING and AHHING over a bog stock but well setup standard shock

Come on Tinsy tell the truth, we are lovers... Or are you denying me?

denied.. your spelling is better and you use upper case and punctuation in the right place, I dont know anyone like that!!! 🙂

Thats what PUSH does for a Pike.

As a bogo-standard rider with no special skill or talent if cheaper fettling can get me similar results I'd rather go down that route.

If the PUSHd system would actually make me think 'WOW'! these are better than any Fox's'..then I would buy into £170 additional cost.

I was recommended the xfirm spring- its too stiff. Back a weight.

Whether its worth it to you, well, stick some Tesco Sunflower Oil in and see how you go. Got to be Tesco though, ASDA stuff breaks down to fast and the Morrisons stuff is inconsistant.

Thats what you call a free-thinking mind that is willing to think laterally 😉

tinsy - Member

denied.. your spelling is better and you use upper case and punctuation in the right place, I dont know anyone like that!!!

I'm crying into my keyboard!!

Hora, you didn't answer my question regarding sag when standing...

Thats what PUSH does for a Pike.

Whether its worth it to you, well, stick some Tesco Sunflower Oil in and see how you go. Got to be Tesco though, ASDA stuff breaks down to fast and the Morrisons stuff is inconsistant.

Yes, but only on the rebound damper, adjustment on the LSC&floodgate is used to tune this on the compression stroke.

BTW Olive oil works better than sunflower 😉

This is the ride when it came to a head. That (tbh) is probably the most travel I got out of these forks ( they finally hydro lockedout):

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mrsnbt/4298693236/sizes/o/

(thanks to nbt for the picture).

When they are back fully working to me- spring swapped and sag set. Sorted. Then I'll take it from there.

I'm crying into my keyboard!!

I am always doing that on Hora's threads...

I am always doing that on Hora's threads...

🙄

Crying Hora, crying!!! 😯

The picture has really made my day, you will have that tongue off you know!!

One thing I noticed with my Pikes was that the standard spring sagged about right for me at 15.5 stone, and was actually usable on most trails, but gave it's travel too easily otherwise. Technically I should have had an X-firm I suppose, but I already knew RS spring weights are a bit pessemistic and bought a firm. That, to my mind, didn't really give enough sag, but felt bang on when riding. TBH I wish RS would give the option of U-turn or preload on their springs, it would make tuning them a lot more accurate.
I thought mine were pretty much spot on, even giving them a pasing in Morzine they were OK. You do get a bit of spiking on repeated hits, but it doesn't detract from the ride for me. I only really notice the difference when I swap bikes and ride my Vanillas. Which are undoubtedly better damped. There's not much in it, IMO, but it is there.

My ideal fork - A 150mm Pike with U-turn, preload, Fox damping, Magura colours and double arch, with the longevity of an older Marzocchi. That said, RS are worth it on price and for the Maxle alone. Maxle is a thing of genius, IMO 🙂

When were the forks last serviced...lowers and damping oil?

stuartanicholson- the forks were <1 month old at that point.

I'd be using Lyriks are my first choice as they felt so bloody awful.

that all the travel you got all day in that pic? if so dont go any firmer on the spring...

Hora, I'm assuming you've had a good faff with the rebound damping?

Hora, I'm assuming you've had a good faff with the rebound damping?

Yep. There was no sweet spot. Anyway threads labouring abit. They should comeback repaired and will be de-springed shortly... does ton want to buy an extra-firm spring? 🙄

hora - Member

This is the ride when it came to a head. That (tbh) is probably the most travel I got out of these forks ( they finally hydro lockedout):

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mrsnbt/4298693236/sizes/o/

(thanks to nbt for the picture).

When they are back fully working to me- spring swapped and sag set. Sorted. Then I'll take it from there.

What length stem is that out of interest?

Seeing as x-firms seem to be almost universally dismissed as 'too firm' by people 15kg+ heavier than me I'm thinking that I might be too far over the front.

So did we determine whether the fork is packing down (massive rebound damping) or locking up (massive compression damping)? Assuming its the first just get a lighter weight oil, the oil needs to be either a fork oil or an engine oil with anti-foaming content (many engine oils have this as standard). I can't think of any other fluids I'd want in my forks. Fork oil is as cheap as chips, like £3 a litre at bike shops and available in a range of weights (you can even mix your own!) and is chemically designed for the task, why would you think putting veg oil in it would make more sense than an oil designed for the task? That's like thinking that sticking two sticks of bamboo up front would work better than your pikes because the designers must have felt an overwhelming need to use metal instead of the clearly better bamboo.

What length stem is that out of interest?

If its on the 456 - 70mm Thomson.

coffeeking- it was an open question on viscosity of oil etc.

Ok they are back from Fisher- Hydraulocked and rebound cart replaced.

Im not going to bother with fettling/fine tuning them (as above) as Ive already bought a new set of Lyriks.

Hora, i'm suprised it took so long. If you need help setting up Lyriks some good info can be found here: -

[url= http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=285230 ]Lyrik Setup[/url]

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Vid[/url]

Thanks for that but I bought 2-step air Lyriks!

Thanks for that but I bought 2-step air Lyriks!

Following the descent to Edale from Jacobs Ladder this week, yes I do need it. I could barely hold onto the bars (think trying to shake themselves silly out of my admittably strong hands/grip).

Why do I break forks? Seriously. I'm SHIT at riding but always seem to find the particular forks Nemesis.