I'd love a single pivot bike with about 110mm travel. Perfect for most of the uk. I had a cannondale rush which was great, but had a 27.2 seatpost.
Not sure of the reasons why, maybe it would take away from 5 sales, or not enough demand?
I think they found with the Sub 3 that the reduction in travel didn;t result in much of a reduction in weight.
Most people with 'short' travel bikes probably perceive single pivot as too 'bobby' for the type of riding that they want to do (rightly or wrongly).
Try the Gyro. 120mm, which is about 110mm plus 10mm.
It would be VERY HEAVY?
Gyro ?? 110mm at the rear and 120mm at the front. 30.9mm seatpost and guides for a dropper post too.
Oh yes, no wagon wheels, 26" only.
Because chances are you'd have more fun on a Five for practically no weight gain.
I have a Five and an Anthem and sort of see your point, but if I only needed one bike it'd be the Five with a lighter build.
They did build the ST4, Mr XC and Sub 3 and no one bought them, so there's not much point in them investing in that sort of thing again.
I had a couple of ST4s that were just like that. Not much lighter than a 5 I guess but very different to ride. Pretty sure the Gyro killed it off.
Because chances are you'd have more fun on a Five for practically no weight gain.
Not a chance. I have much more fun on a short travel bike.
"140mm is fine" they said. "You might as well have the extra 30mm" they said. And a thousand authors of "overbiked" threads felt a shiver down their spines and knew that something was wrong in the world.
Not a chance. I have much more fun on a short travel bike.
You need better trails.
Because chances are you'd have more fun on a Five for practically no weight gain.
Is that another way of saying they can't make a light XC bike?
Hmm, My experience of the ST4 in the Malverns/FoD/Yat/Pyrenees/Quantocks/Peaks/etc was that you could definitely find the limits on big rocky stuff but you had a heck of a lot of fun getting there. It was a very poppy bike, a compromise yes but just lots of fun to ride anywhere and most (and I mean most) of the time, rider was the high water mark.
My mate on his 5 was faster on the very rocky descents but when I rode that 5, I didn't like it. Probably as I wasn't prepared to go fast enough to make it fun like the ST4.
I rode 2 ST4s (first one broke and ended up with the 2010 version with top tube mounted shock) over 3500kms. Probably wanted a bigger bike about 5% of that.
Still I've got the rocket now so I'm overbiked all the time to make up.
A 100mmish "5" with a slack head angle and steep seat angle would rock!
Dropper seat post, maxles, big tyres, big bars and a 1 by. Perfect!
Is that another way of saying they can't make a light XC bike?
The Elite frame was about 2.5lbs.
But no, they couldn't make a light full suspension bike for toffee. I didn't envy Hannah Barnes doing the Transvesubienne on 29lbs of Gyro.
A 100mmish "5" with a slack head angle and steep seat angle would rock!Dropper seat post, maxles, big tyres, big bars and a 1 by. Perfect
This is exactly what I'm after. I guess there is no market for this as most people prefer longer travel.
You can't blame Orange for not making a short travel 26" bike. Does anybody make a short travel bike with small wheels any more?
Cy was canvassing opinions on whether to go for a 130mm Soulalike to run alongside the Rocket or to go for somethign with similar geometry but with 100mm or travel that woudl take 120mm forks.
He's now developing a 130mm FS Soul which shows where he thinks his commercial interests lie.
I do think it would be an intersting project to give someone like 18bikes if I had the cash...
There's no market because of all of the huge mountains to launch their Fives down in Surrey.
Not a chance. I have much more fun on a short travel bike.
The problem is the 5's downtube is what makes the pivot stiff. Making it a 4" bike wouldn't reduce the weight as you'd probably need the same downtube, swingarm, etc.
You could probably get there with a bit more air in the shock, offset bushes (or just a short shock), slackset and short forks.
You can't blame Orange for not making a short travel 26" bike. Does anybody make a short travel bike with small wheels any more?
Not really, because it's a dead market now.
Niche manufacturers like Cotic can get away with it, because their production runs would be minute, even compared to smaller manufacturers like Orange.
They simply would't sell in a volume high enough to make it an economically viable option.
I had a Sub3 and later on a 5.
The Sub 3 was too heavy and the pivot point produced terrible kickback up rocky stuff . It was very strong frame though.
The ST4 was produced as some people at Orange felt they were losing sales due to the growing popularity of multi pivots.The ST4 frame was no lighter than the 5 but was solely brought in to fill a perceived gap.
Orange did produce prototypes with a mind to replacing the 5.
I rode one for about 18 months and felt it was a far superior bike to the 5 but was not a traditional Orange folded and welded type of design.This may have put off traditionalists.
If you're going to make something shorter travel buyers also expect it to be lighter but in my experience Orange design for toughness and reliability first rather than cutting weight down to the bone.
I've always thought their design gets better the bigger the bike? The shortcomings don't seem as big an issue and the simplicity works well.
roverpig - MemberDoes anybody make a short travel bike with small wheels any more?
Loads tbh... Anthem X 26 is still the best selling Giant full suss apparently. But fork inflation means 120mm or even 130mm is seen as short travel now.
The Sub-5 had around 110mm travel.
I still love my Sub-5.
As no-one buys 29ers any more and 650b is 'everywhere' but I've only ever seen 1, then short travel nimble 26'' bikes could be the next big thing.
Anthem X 26 is still the best selling Giant full suss apparently.
I didn't realise they still made the Anthem in 26", I assumed with all the fluff about 29ers that they'd stopped making it. Thank god for that- I was wondering what I'd do when mine died.
not any more, I think giant is a 29 only company these days.
OK, here's a plan:
Buy an older (~2006) Five frame from ebay. Send it to Orange, who will replace the bearings and paint it so that it looks like a new bike.
Fit a Works Components 1 degree headset and some offset bushings. Add a nice light 120mm fork and the lightest wheels and kit you can afford.
That should get you a (relatively) light single pivot with 120mm travel and slack angles.
@Northwind: I'm surprised that the 26" Anthem is still Giant's best seller. I wonder if that is just in some markets? It's hard to believe that they sell many in the States.
I didn't envy Hannah Barnes doing the Transvesubienne on 29lbs of Gyro.
Did hers really weight that? Mine's 29lb (real and verified) with a Hans Dampf/Nobby Nic combo and a dropper (1x10 admittedly). Racier wheels and tyres and it's 27lb…
I did the Wales Coast to Coast non-stop on 28.5lb of Superfly and the bike weight was the last thing on my mind…
Regarding a shorter travel 26er Orange – as mentioned, the ST4 was exactly that. It was brilliant and much like the Commencal Meta 4. Problem is, it was barely any lighter and most people didn't get it.
It seem to have worked in 29" guise as there's a decent weight diff and enough of a geo difference between the Five29 and the Gyro (Five29 is a good 2-3lb heavier)
Although I wouldn't be surprised to see the Gyro go the way of the ST4 as everyone buys Five29s regardless of whether they'd have more fun on a Gyro…
Mike- there are three models of the Anthem X in 26" on the Giant UK site. And they're doing 650b hardtails next year.
I still don't see many 29ers on the trails and I suspect your average bike buyer is still someone who doesn't read many magazines and doesn't ride very hard. And likes to stick to what they know- so end up with a 26" Anthem. They're used to the wheel size and it'll handle Sherwood Pines (or Cannock/Swinley/insert relatively tame local trail name here) nicely.
Already done something similar with a giant trance x.
Getting a bit off-topic, but I'd love to know what Hannah really thought of her Gyro on that event. She's light enough and fit enough for weight to matter. I, on the other hand, am not. I could probably lose another 10 lb before I counted as underweight and even a modest training programme would probably give me a 10% increase in power to weight ratio. So, I'm certainly not going to worry about a couple of pound here or there (as it's only 1% of the total weight).
I still don't see many 29ers on the trails and I suspect your average bike buyer is still someone who doesn't read many magazines and doesn't ride very hard.
I think there's an element of truth there.
But I'd put it down to most people buy a bike, and ride iut untill it's compeltley busted (or never ride it enough to completely bust it). So there's a 4-5 year delay between "29ers are outselling everying" and "29ers are all you see on the trails", so that's proabbly at least another 3-4 years off. Even on STW the number of people buying a new bike every year is probably only a small minority. i probably do, but most are cheep flings and borderline disposable (2nd hand singlespeeds etc), the big £2k+ purchases are probably every 4-5 years at least.
Ditto it'll probably be another 8 years before 650b becomes the default small wheel option (if it happens at all).
I have a commencal super 4 which I run with 120mm rebas [originally 100mm] and 100mm rear travel which is more or less what you describe. It is an excellent bike, weighs 27lb in current spec and can deal with a lot more than I can. However I have only seen 2 others in the 4 years I have had it and I notice that when they come up 2nd hand there isn't a rush of posts demanding them. Even taking into account Crackencals reputation nobody seems to want this style of bike even though I suspect they would suit a lot more people than would admit it.
When the time comes to replace I will be looking for whatever shorter travel FS Cotic come up with as I am very happy with my Soul.
No-one makes short travel bikes for 26" wheels any more, because it's a dead market now - except Transition, Banshee, Pivot, Specialized, to name a few.... 🙂
mikewsmith - MemberI think giant is a 29 only company these days.
Nah, they still do most of their lynchpin models in 26- Anthem, Trance, Talon, Reign, even the XTC Composite race bike surprisingly. Just had a quick look and I don't think they have a single 29er only model. Though they've dropped the Anthem X for the US, it's a big deal in the rest of the world (and Giant don't seem to do that Specialized thing of "The USA is EVERTHING")
http://www.giant-bicycles.com/en-au/bike-finder/everyone/offroad/?level=all
apart from the kids & reign it's 29 only for Oz
When the time comes to replace I will be looking for whatever shorter travel FS Cotic come up with as I am very happy with my Soul.
Didn't Cy say that if it did happen it'd be no lighter or better pedaling than the Rocket?
Effectively it'd be worse for the sake of it.
Personaly I prefer short travel bikes to be steep angles and long stem. If the trails smooth enough not to need more travel then it's smooth enough no to need such stable angles.
Im after a short travel FS aswell, having ridden a 5 and an St4 I preferred the overall ride of the St, the 5 was ace going down but a bit of a slog on the ups, the St was not much slower going down for me but noticeably quicker up and along.. Felt like riding a hardtail. So If anybody had a 16" Orange St4 or Commencal Meta 4 let me know.
Mikedonald@hotmaildotcom.
Merci.
The Sub-5 had around 110mm travel.I still love my Sub-5.
*high fives ex Sub-5 owner and lover*
I also had an ST4 (the first one) until I snapped it a few times.
I have also ridden on '5's a lot.
I am a fan of quality of travel and enough to help but not a skills compensator / just an excuse to go uber fast beyond my skills limit.
I suspect that most of the market would see amount of travel is directly related to how 'good' a bike is.
However a fun bike is not just down to mm's of travel, in my view.
No-one makes short travel bikes for 26" wheels any more, because it's a dead market now - except Transition, Banshee, Pivot, Specialized, to name a few....
3 of whom manufacture less bikes in total than Specialized do of one line of a sub model. What do Specialized do with less travel than an SJ in 26"?
People are buying & selling bikes that were designed & spec'd 18/24 months ago. Once this lot are gone that's it. There was an article on the home page about wave of changing wheel size which is very close to the truth.
I've said before on here I work for a large manufacturer. We arn't designing ANY 26" wheeled bikes now. Right or wrong, everyone is in the same boat.
For the record, I love my 26 bike!
Any shorter travel than 140mm and you might as well move to better trails or pick a hardtail, of which Orange do plenty.
Any shorter travel than 140mm and you might as well move to better trails or pick a hardtail, of which Orange do plenty.
Have you just started riding mountain bikes?
Any shorter travel than 140mm and you might as well move to better trails or pick a hardtail, of which Orange do plenty.
Oranges Are Not the Only Fruit
i just bought a 4" 26er frame. low bb, slackish head angle
its 2005 vintage. its great. why do you need a *new* frame?
I run a banshee rampant, 100m of pure fun...and quick as you like..
perfect for surrey loam....
Any shorter travel than 140mm and you might as well move to better trails or pick a hardtail, of which Orange do plenty
ballshit right there, I'd rather be riding surrey everyday rather than vast parts of the UK...lots of rocks don't always make for good trails.
Peak district springs to mind
ballshit right there, I'd rather be riding surrey everyday rather than vast parts of the UK...lots of rocks don't always make for good trails.
Peak district springs to mind
Er, WTF?
Rocks make good trails. Always. The Peak would be nothing without them.
The Peak would be nothing without them
exactly, there is zero flow...
Don't get me wrong, I love rocks but in the right context on a trail.
You aren't riding fast enough. Batter over them and there's flow. I'm not an especially good rider and I can get over them with something resembling flow.
not really my bag..!
by flow I mean loamy turns
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typical surrey riding and why a 100mm short travel 4x type bike is perfect.
I have to agree a bit with that, while I love the peak all my fave trails are the ones with more flow less rocks.
I'm currently trying to work out how to mix the front end geo of a reign with the forks of a trance & the rear of an anthem. I keep getting close but there is always a comprise & it's working out which is best when nothing is quite right
Flux
I can floe the Peak on a HT if I try, same with the lakes, 150mm for the rest. Short travel for some trail centre stuff but in the end HT (with 150mm up front) or 150mm for me in the UK. Works fine, though so did 125mm
typical surrey riding and why a 100mm short travel 4x type bike is perfect.
Wouldn't agree re Surrey. There are loads of rocky & rooty trails, I guess you just need to know where to look. The one in the video isn't bad, but I guess thinking about it I can see why trails involving loads of pedalling such as Barry knows best might give Surrey that sort of reputation.
olie - Member
A 100mmish "5" with a slack head angle and steep seat angle would rock!Dropper seat post, maxles, big tyres, big bars and a 1 by. Perfect!
this works for me, pivot m4x
very low, very slack. r 100 f 120, 12.7/66 ish longish front/short rear
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Look at 4X bikes. Some are very short in the top tube but not all - slack, strong, short travel.
Nicolai developed the Helius TB as a shorter travel trail bike - c120mm front or rear (you can run a little more or less). Looks like it would be ideal for trail centre riding. Not selling at all though - the interest is all at the 140mm level or above and has been for some years now.
As others have pointed out, you don't save a lot of weight reducing the travel on the frame - most of the weight saving comes from lighter parts. 150mm forks etc got lighter. An air shock weighs the same on a 100mm bike or a 150mm bike at 200mm eye to eye (which will cope with both).
Wouldn't agree re Surrey. There are loads of rocky & rooty trails, I guess you just need to know where to look. The one in the video isn't bad, but I guess thinking about it I can see why trails involving loads of pedalling such as Barry knows best might give Surrey that sort of reputation
rocks, really where...the odd stone but rocks no!
That Nicolai ticks a lot of the right boxes, just way out of my price range.
There are a few 4x frames that look good too but I want them at trail bike weights, I know weight is a minimal issue but its a selling point
its not all about weight. my banshee is about 29lbs but accelerates so quick when you put the power down as there is minimal bob.
I know its not about weight but I think that does put some people off some of the 4x frames
Has anyone said SC superlight yet?
SC superlight? I've got one and it's great 😀
🙂
I had one in my pre Nicolai days. 100mm on the back, 85mm set of Bombers on the front. I rode that all round the same natural trails in the Lakes and Peaks I ride now on my 150mm F+R Helius AC...
Certainly slower and would have been with more dabs but it coped...
As others have said, a lot of manufacturers are starting to feel the 26 short travel bike overlaps too much with a 29 inch hardtail/ 26 5 inch travel bike. Yeti would be another example doing away with the ASR-SL C.
For short travel single pivot currently being made I can only really think of the Santa Cruz Superlight and Morewood Zula...
I'm sure I had seen Cy say somewhere that if they weren't looking for hardcore big bike strength, they could use a lighter tube set which should lead to an overall reduction in weight compared to the rocket.
Another vote for the Santa Cruz super light here, love mine.
Look at 4X bikes. Some are very short in the top tube but not all - slack, strong, short travel.
No good. I am 6'3 and need a 17.5" seat tube minimum.
161037315288
Put that number into ebay job done 8)
That's it 💡 , I'm getting my Turner Burner down from the loft & fitting it with a set of 120mm Reba's this weekend, should be interesting ❓
The Hemlock came with 100mm rocker and a reasonably slack headangle.
this works for me, pivot m4x
very low, very slack. r 100 f 120, 12.7/66 ish longish front/short rear
Past caring
Got one coming for a test ride to replace my 5 🙂
Hmmm... That St4 looks familiar on eBay...
The superlight isn't particularly slack is it?
I always thought the Saracen Ariel should have gone to 120 not 160
rocks don't always make for good trails.
Peak district springs to mind.......... there is zero flow...
There's plenty of flow, you just need to ride them quicker.
Can be difficult when the trails are clogged with out-of townees minceing down them complaining about a lack of 'flow' though. :p
Orange used to make the Blood - 127mm rear travel, slack, low, tough.
Best bike I owned up to the point it got nicked....
OOOhh look a thread for the same old names to spout the same old bollocks.
How very STW.
Just maybe some one wants to ride a bike that you don't.
No need to try and make yourself look big by trying to shoot them down in flames because you can't see a use for what they want. 😐
Though i'm sure there are a few bikes out there that aren't made out of old filing cabintets that fit your bill OP. 🙂
I have a Superlight with 120 Reba's full XT and Hope hubs and Stan's rims 70 degrees headtube and 25.5 lbs. Just brilliant cope's with all the UK mud and all the trails and singletrack I ride and totally bullet proof a real classic they always say in the mags.
Morewood Zula - soon to be available in 650b as well.
Well I built my old Turner Burner up (although obviously not a single pivot) & It's not as slack as I would like, it also has a very high bb & not much stand over height. I have only given it a spin but I don't think it will be a bike I will enjoy, but a low travel FS is on the wish list, I'm just undecided if it should be a 26, 650 or 29er, this choice malarkey just isn't fun considering the money involved 🙁