[Closed] Orange Bikes - no more DH bikes 🙁

IMO SDH had a couple of overly zealous moderators who took a dislike to anything if it was a bit left field.

Whereas half the people on here come on to chat shite rather than discuss shock tuning.

Maybe people are just more focused on sticker price these days. It could just be my failing memory, but it seems to me that we used to think more about value for money whereas now it just seems to be about price, which is very different.

Any mountain bike that gets ridden lots for many years is good value. Any bike that just hangs in your shed is poor value, regardless of how cheap you thought it was when you bought it. So things like longevity, resale value etc are just as important as the initial purchase price, yet all I ever seem to hear about Orange bikes is that they are expensive to buy.

Had some time out of the sport due to young family so had not been of SDH for a few years, went back and found a distinct lack of activity so left it alone. Only consistent that remained was Archie posting pics of another 'new' warm hatch.

222 was my first DH bike, it is still missed, though not in the same way as my old M1.

So things like longevity, resale value etc are just as important as the initial purchase price, yet all I ever seem to hear about Orange bikes is that they are expensive to buy.

Your argument might hold some water regarding Orange's trail bikes (if they had a longer warranty), but the DH frame was way too costly tbh.

Only consistent that remained was Archie posting pics of another 'new' warm hatch.

😀

roverpig - Member

So things like longevity, resale value etc are just as important as the initial purchase price, yet all I ever seem to hear about Orange bikes is that they are expensive to buy.

Longevity and resale of a 224 was never that good, though- not the most durable of frames. (mine is a rarity, it's got the same number of welds it left the factory with 😉 )

I always found SDH to be a lot like this place used to be. An impenetrable nest of spineless, pedantic, willy-waving, argumentative, tossers.

But anyway, this was my last Orange;
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Perfect in size, geometry and spec but rode like a donkey. The rear suspension and back brake won't work at the same time so it bucks around all over the place. Got it for trade price and immediately wish I'd bought a Demo or Session which I could have got from the same shop.

[quote=sharkattack]I always found SDH to be a lot like this place [s]used to be[/s]. An impenetrable nest of spineless, pedantic, willy-waving, argumentative, tossers.

Fixed.

Only consistent that remained was Archie posting pics of another 'new' warm hatch.

That and pics of spotless downhill bikes leant against picnic tables in the grounds of mummy and daddies house.

SDH used to be ok. Rebranding it? Huge mistake! I went on the other week to see if there were any forks for sale. I remember when a post in the classifieds dropped off the front page in a matter of hours and there was stuff there from the week before when I looked last week.

I always found SDH to be a lot like this place used to be. An impenetrable nest of spineless, pedantic, willy-waving, argumentative, tossers

Find me an internet forum that isn't like that. I just try to find ones which keep this to a bear minimum of 95% bulls@&t content.

The rebrand kinda made sense, I met some SDH members at fort william and they all said, more or less, "why are you on Southern Downhill when you're so very not southern?" It'd gone national but still had a regional name. But who calls it ride.io? That's one of those meaningless teflon brand names that you can't really attach anything to. Still SDH to most folks I think.

SDH demise was strange, like everyone had decided to stop using it on one particular day.....that happened to coincide with their rebrand 🙄

I'm a SDH refugee, ended up here, it's ok I guess. There were a few dicks, but seemingly way less than there are here. I pop back now and then to see the same thread sat exactly where it was before, no new replies.

DH doesn't really make much sense in the UK. Our big hills are mostly in protected areas, uplifts are slow, expensive and, damage bikes (looking at you, Innerliethen) and often the scene is full of smug pyjama boys sneering because you missed the high line. It's one big willy waving session that's hardly inviting to new folks. Enduro does make sense. More race time, friendly atmosphere, can compete on any bike. It's still expensive mind. I don't think anyone can be to surprised by the decline of DH in the UK.

I've had numerous long travel Orange:

Patriot LT
2x Patriot 66 (mk1)
Patriot -2008 version right before they cancelled it
Original 224

I found that each one had perfect (for me) geometry, robust and predictable handling and suspension characteristics. The 224 was an amazing DH bike in 2006, with virtually pioneering slack head angle and low BB that made it a hoot. Coupled with the Swinger 4-way shock it seemed to make speed out of every rock root and trail feature; I'd pop over a stump or big root and it seemed to fire me forward; I'd hit a berm quicker on this than the Norco A-line it replaced, the suspension would squat into the berm and seemingly dig in until it was time to shoot you out the other side. Everything else I rode felt dead yet still nervous in comparison.

All that said, I would now agree that despite Orange big travel bikes having something a little special, they're just too expensive. When I can buy a Taiwanese made frame, assembled in Germany with mostly top drawer parts, that will perform just as well as the Orange with an identical build kit, for less than the price of the Orange frame alone, then basic economics dictates where my money will go.

I also think their seemingly wholesale move to 27.5 wheels is a mistake. I've tried both 27.5 & 29" bikes and neither made me think "this is loads better than 26" - rather I was left wondering about all the fuss. I wouldn't be surprised if Orange slowly disappear.

Does this mean my 224 EVO is now a collectors item?

No, its the Citroen Saxo of the mountain bike world now.

Our big hills are mostly in protected areas, uplifts are slow, expensive and, damage bikes (looking at you, Innerliethen) and often the scene is full of smug pyjama boys sneering because you missed the high line. It's one big willy waving session that's hardly inviting to new folks.

I dont agree, I've been into riding DH and local timed events for the last 2 years, never had anything but good folks at uplifts and tracks and got to know some really good riders who are totally sound, some kids drink too much Monster get a bit excited but thats it. Pearce events where an eye opener for me, amazing setup and dedication and very welcoming.

DH doesn't really make much sense in the UK. Our big hills are mostly in protected areas, uplifts are slow, expensive and, damage bikes (looking at you, Innerliethen) and often the scene is full of smug pyjama boys sneering because you missed the high line. It's one big willy waving session that's hardly inviting to new folks. Enduro does make sense. More race time, friendly atmosphere, can compete on any bike. It's still expensive mind. I don't think anyone can be to surprised by the decline of DH in the UK.

Does the success of Antur Stiniog and Bike Park Wales not kind of suggest otherwise?

I've been to a few DH places and found everyone very friendly. I agree about the lack of decent uplifts though.

often the scene is full of smug pyjama boys sneering because you missed the high line. It's one big willy waving session that's hardly inviting to new folks.

I don't think this is a DH specific issue. Any of the more extreme sports (or sides of sports) have their fair share of idiots who sneer at the lack of Gnar/latest kit/ability to send huge gap/trick etc and give the rest of the community a bad name. Seen it is skating, snowboarding, dirt jumping and so on. Sad thing is a lot of them are the all the gear no idea brigade. We used to call them Groms when we skated back in the day.

The 224 was an amazing DH bike in 2006, with virtually pioneering slack head angle and low BB that made it a hoot.

Replace 224 with IH Sunday and you might be on to something there

Yeah, they are popular, I specifically meant a racing scenario though. Sorry, I didn't make that too clear. I think possibly people are finally realising that they don't [i]reeaaaally[/i] need full DH bikes to enjoy places like that.

Descent world was the other forum that got "rebranded".

Descent world was the other forum that got "rebranded"

Did that combine with SDH in a sort of North/South coming together?

Nope D-W still exists. Iirc the server got fried, so they went for the backup - which was on the same server - doh! Combined with mods who were being absolute Nazis for a while, it was doomed

I don't think this is a DH specific issue. Any of the more extreme sports (or sides of sports) have their fair share of idiots who sneer at the lack of Gnar/latest kit/ability to send huge gap/trick etc and give the rest of the community a bad name. Seen it is skating, snowboarding, dirt jumping and so on. Sad thing is a lot of them are the all the gear no idea brigade. We used to call them Groms when we skated back in the day.

I thought groms was a surfing term used for kids?!?

The worst 'sport' for upyourownarsedness for me was climbing. Climbing is great but full of ****ers who don't like people entering their sport.

Oh and Golf, golfers really are twunts!!

Fractured my Acetabular at Bringewood on an Orange 222, loved that bike, up until that crash anyway.

I thought groms was a surfing term used for kids?!?

I think it's one of those terms which has been passed on between 'extreme' sports.

thing is a lot of them are the all the gear no idea brigade. We used to call them

......serps you call them 😆

Anyway I'd say that quote applies to the 99.9% of folks on here tbh! 😉

thing is a lot of them are the all the gear no idea brigade. We used to call them

......serps you call them 😆

Anyway I'd say that quote applies to the 99.9% of folks on here tbh! 😉

Did someone say something?
Edit: Pussy use one of your other logins if you want a reply to whatever BS you intend spouting today.

Does the success of Antur Stiniog and Bike Park Wales not kind of suggest otherwise?

No, because the target market for them isn't DH, it's the middle ground. People on trail & AM bikes who want to have a concentrated hit of gravity biased trails

Wellll... Is that true? I mean, yes Antur and BPW are pitched to be appealing to all riders not just dhers but it's not really any different to innerleithen or similiar older venues when you ride there- it's always been fine to do dh on a little bike, just that most people didn't.

Maybe enduro racing's helped with that as people end up dipping their toes, maybe it's normal bikes getting better... I think maybe we're just finally getting over that "not for us" mentality that saw loads of riders happy to do uplifts on holiday but never do them in the uk.

I think the quality of the suspension these days has a lot to do with it, I mean how many of us can actually ride a modern DH bike to anywhere near it limits, or would even want to for that matter? I'm not athletic, skilled or brave enough, which means that riding a DH bike these days is less fun than a really sorted 160mm travel bike. I can go pretty quick still and have more fun and have a more versatile bike. I used to own a DH bike but I don't any more.

I can go pretty quick still and have more fun and have a more versatile bike.

This.

My 150mm F 140mm R bike does everything I need it to do reasonably well. Its only got 25% less travel than most of my old DH bikes had, it weights around 30lb, pedals well, goes uphill quickly, is fun on the downs, nails single track, stops without fuss, the seat goes up and down at the push of a button and it does not fall apart after a bit of abuse.

As has been mentioned, with slacker angles and longer suss the norm on 'standard' bikes the All Mountain Patriot and DH only 322 had no where to go and had their toes stepped on by the Alpine 160 and to some degree the 5 and 5 29. Does anyone sell many DH bikes anymore?

It's just like the P7 or 26" HT bikes. If the demand in the market returns I'm sure Orange will respond.

Apologies if this has already been mentioned above, but with Jared Graves riding a Yeti SB66 to 3rd place at the recent downhill World Champs, there must be a few bike companies nervously looking at their downhill bikes and wondering if the market is big enough for them.

Think that was more representative of the course than the bike tbh. Most of the bigger bike companies have a dh bike and push it strongly, there'll be a bit of the old "race on sunday, buy on monday" involved with that but I don't think many worry if it's a worthwhile market.

With Orange, personally I suspect it's just their limited capacity at work, they can't make enough Fives so they're focusing on the most popular models. It doesn't have to be hard to sell a 322 or Patriot, just harder than a Five.

Well it must be fairly hard to sell, otherwise they'd use the demand for the 5 to expand.

Can't actualy remember the last time I saw a new patriot in the flesh, they used to be common in the Peaks but everyones migrated to fives since the 6.6

Think that was more representative of the course than the bike tbh

I'm sure that's what the makers of downhill bikes will want us all to believe. However, Graves himself had the following to say:

It seems to be the people who have never seen the course who have the most negative things to say about it. In person, it was certainly far rougher and more of a “real DH track” than it looks from some helmet cam run that was put on the Internet. Throw in multiple 45-60ft jumps, and there was plenty to make it a worthy World Championship DH track.

Of course he's bound to say that 🙂 but the point is that the marketing machine is pushing hard against the boundaries of what "one-bike-to-rule-them-all" can do, which will impact on downhill bikes as much as it does on race-bred XC machines.

funny how he missed out mentioning the long, flat pedal in the middle where the SB was always going to make up a bucket load of time. When he'll rocks up to Val Di Sole and gets 3rd on the SB, then I'll believe.

I don't buy the "not proper dh" thing but I don't think many people would claim it was a typical dh course. Like Legend says, if he takes it to a wider variety of tracks and performs, then it'll be interesting but I can't see it.

With Orange, personally I suspect it's just their limited capacity at work, they can't make enough Fives so they're focusing on the most popular models. It doesn't have to be hard to sell a 322 or Patriot, just harder than a Five.

Think you're right Northwind, sell what makes the most money! As for expanding, why take the risk when the market can turn on itself so quickly and you're obviously doing alright as it is. MTB's seem to be standing still at best while road bikes are on the up. They know the market better then us so the direction they take says a lot.

legend, from the same Graves' blog ([url= http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Jared-Graves-Rider-Journal-World-Championships-2013.html ]link[/url]):

The track was more or less the same as it was last year with only a few minor changes at the bottom and a whole lot more jumps on the pedaling section in the middle (to reduce the pedaling). I wasn't sure how the track changes would fit the smaller bike, as I needed the pedaling to make the most of the smaller bike’s strengths. But, I would also carry better speed through the jumps and it would probably even out.

It doesn't detract from my point which is that - as bike purchasers - we like to see evidence of these bold marketing claims and here it is. I no more expect Graves to win VdS on an SB66 than I expect Nino Schurter to win a XC race on a Genius LT, but you can't deny that the boundaries in which these super bikes are performing are getting wider. If 99% of bike buyers can have their needs served well by one Holy Grail bike, that's less money to spend on the more specialist bikes.

Loathe as I am to make this a wheel size thread, but we all know that's why the bike companies needed the new next best thing, since the last best thing was actually more than good enough for most of us.

It seems to be the people who have never seen the course who have the most negative things to say about it. In person, it was certainly far rougher and more of a “real DH track” than it looks from some helmet cam run that was put on the Internet. Throw in multiple 45-60ft jumps, and there was plenty to make it a worthy World Championship DH track.

Funny that he chose to ride a 303 at fort bill though......

Funny that he chose to ride a 303 at fort bill though......

No. It's not. He chose what he thought was the right bike for the job at Fort Bill much like he did in South Africa. The reference to PMB is that an "all-mountain" bike is now good enough for a professional downhiller to get third place in a World Championship DOWNHILL race. I wouldn't have thought that a year ago.

I'm obviously doing a very poor job at making my point and now the thread's gone off at a tangent. Forget I said anything and I'll tiptoe back out of this 😆

No. It's not.He chose what he thought was the right bike for the job at Fort Bill much like he did in South Africa.