[Closed] Orange 5/Alpine - Coil vs Air

Different shock length on those two if that influences you at all. RP23'ed Alpine here and it is plusher than the RP23'ed Five I used to have - but I haven't tried the CCDB.

I kept my RP23 thinking I'd swap it back for longer XC days but I haven't felt the need to and it's at the bottom of my spares box. Need to get round to selling it. And as said above the Five and Alpine take different shock lengths.

I have a five with a van rc on, does everything I need inc DH as I went to a lyrik coil fork too.

DHX coil on my alpine, sold my RP23.

Got a CCDB on my '08 Patriot and it's great - it's my only shock but it climbs amazingly, so I do big rides with it as well as messing around. On descents it feels mint most of the time, but occasionally a bit disappointing. My theory is that any shock that's as tuneable as a CCDB will inevitably feel less than perfect on certain trails - you can't have it set up to be brilliant on absolutely everything - simply not possible.

TF can resize the CCDB if you need it for a different i2i. The 5 is a 190x50 & the Alpine is a 215x63. Worth bearing in mind as it's not cheap to do (up to £180 from memory?).

I have a Van RC on my 5, as I wanted to see what a coil was like on the bike. It was a vast improvement on the RP23 that it came with. I tried fiddling with the settings, various air pressures and the spacer kits for the air can as I couldn't find a good balance between sag & the bike blowing through it's travel. All in it weighs about 500g more than the air shock it replaced, but it's so much better i'm prepared to accept the extra weight.

I'd like to try a Double Barrel on it, but i'm not sure it's going to be 4 times as good as the shock i've got on there (difference in values). I'm just keeping an eye out for a second hand one instead.

I put the Van RC on my 5. The following in a nut shell...

Climbing:
No noticeable difference compared to the RP23. Pedal bob no worse and don't notice the weight in the saddle.

Singletrack:
Again, no noticeable difference except less pedal strikes.

Fast, bumpy downhill:
Huge difference. Back end now tracks the ground and doesn't 'skip' like the RP23 did. This means I can brake later and have much better control overall. Landing off jumps and drops is just brilliant.

If I just did XC and simple trails I'm not sure it would be worth it but if you push your bike harder than some then you won't be disappointed! My RP23 now gathering dust in the cupboard. Don't think I'll ever put it back on.

id 100% agree with dorkingtrailpixie above.

Great summary.

Cheers guys, was thinking of using the CCDB for uplifts and the alps, but it seems like the rp23 would just sit around gathering dust.

Just note the comments from 'wi' about constant fiddling with the CCDB. I know a couple of people who use them and they can't leave the bloody things alone! The almost limitless ability to fine tune them seems to be their downfall in my opinion.

Older Fox Van RC over here - used an RP2 for a while, but preferred the coil...

I have a CCDB on my Transition Covert, I love it to bits but it's HEAVY! I have used an rp23 and Monarch Plus on the same bike, the rp23 was good, the Monarch was great, the CCDB is even better (less bob, plush, stable) but heavy.

The Covert is also 190x50 (same shock dimensions as the Five) and you will be lucky to find a titanium spring if you want to lighten up the shock (Nuke Proof do 2, but I need a 500lb spring, if anyone knows about one then please contact me!) you could fit a 2.25" but that's 6mm longer and it'd be a squeeze.

I still need to mess with the rebound to get the poppy feeling I like, but for tracking both up and downhill, the CCDB is great. You just have to decide when to say enough is enough on the whole sacrificing weight for performance issue.

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No titanium springs for the 5 unfortunately!

Yes there is - Nukeproof Ti springs as I have one..

Weight difference is only 400g with a Ti spring too (with my 400lb spring)

That's CCDB vs RP23 weight difference on a Five 50x190 shock

if youre considering an Alpine the extra weight of the coil is inconsequential as the rest of the bike is a sled. What size is your CCDB and which Orange frame will it fit? CCDB's are sought after second hand if you ended up selling that (worth selling separately from a frame as it is a premium upgrade).

CCDB on Alpine. Bought with it fitted from new so cant compare with other shocks, havent fiddled too much with it after first few rides.

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[i]Yes there is - Nukeproof Ti springs as I have one..[/i]

Rik - is that a Ti spring for the CCDB or the Van RC? I thought there was no Ti spring for the Van RC - cheers

A 2.25" fits a 190 shock fine 🙂

Hob Nob - is that speaking from experience?

The free length of a 2.25 is 6mm longer than a 2" iirc (look on Nuke Proofs site anyway), I haven't measured it but it doesn't look like there's much more room on my shock as I'm not running much preload.

Yep - i've got a 550x2.25" on my 5 at the moment (Nuke Proof).

It's not a tight fit at all!

That is reassuring! What's the shock?

Edit: nevermind, just noticed you said it was a Van earlier on.

Currently my shock is 200x50mm. I spoke to TFT and apparently it is cheaper to down than up in size (machining rather than new parts) about 120 vs 200.

Is the weight difference between the Alpine and 5 really so massive? I have relatively light but strong parts (crossmax, hope, x0 etc) and would like to only be changing tyres for a DH day. I thought the difference in weights for the frames was ~200g?

I guess the question is then, how much is a second hand CCDB worth?? 200x50mm and the 2008 model (nitrided body). I guess that could work out cheaper than a mod from TFT.

I've got both the RP23 that came with my Alpine and a custom tuned Pushed DHX5. Depends what I'm riding but 90% of the time I prefer the RP23 - seems to pedal way better and easier to push into corners - I guess there's the small weight advantage too. The only time it seems to struggle is repeated big hits particularly if it's warm (think Pila tracks at the height of summer) - performance is fine to start but seems to get very inconsistent as it warms up. RP23 also seems to need a service fairly regularly - perhaps smaller oil volumes and not as good heat management means that the oil breaks down quicker?
Granted the DHX is way plusher and great for fast, rough and sustained tracks but that plushness makes the bike harder (for me!) to jump and manual.
Cheers,
Simon.

search here and fleabay, but when I'd considered selling mine and did a bit of research they didn't seem to go for less than £300.

Dont know difference in frame weights, was getting more at the build ethos of an Alpine (more DH oriented) than the 5. Mine has a GD, flatboys (>500grms should be called Fatboys) and the rest of the kit was chosen with weight not a consideration. If you'd be putting identical kit onto either then it might be a consideration, but I chose my kit on the basis only of functionality and durability and the CCDB fits in with that (as do the fatboys, my fave flat pedal and Ive tried a few).

There isn't much out there regarding the weights of the bare frames. However I weighed my '11 18" 5 & it was 7lbs on the nose with the RP23. I seem to remember the Alpine is 7lbs without shock.

Not a huge amount in it, but the Alpine is a bit slacker & a bit longer too. However, with the 5 as it is and the option of running 140-160 forks on it you have more options than the Alpine. A 5 works out just as slack as an Alpine with 160 forks on it anyway.

With a little bit of ingenuity (200x57 shock & offset bushes) you can run a 5 with the same amount of travel as the Alpine, and it 'should' just about be stock geometry. There is plenty of space to run the extra shock stroke too.

For me, I thought about the Alpine for a while, but for 99% of the riding I do, the bigger bike would have been overkill. I'm not even convinced on the 1% (Megavalanche) I would have been any quicker on it either.

Alpine is 1 lb heavier than the Five frame with the same shock.

CCDB will be heavier on the Alpine due to longer damper and heavier spring

Don't expect a lighter build than 33lb on a Five if you go for coil front and rear suspension

my five with wide bars, flats, dh tubes, Flows + van rc (steel spring) and lyrik coils is 33.33 lbs

its kind of killed the singletrack swiftness but it suits for where i ride and the odd uplift day.

I reckon it would be fine in the Alps with some burlier tyres.

Was going to use my old 36 vans either way, because 1: I like them a lot, and 2: a new fork will cost me the thick end of 1k!!

Guess coil on both ends will make the difference in frame weight negligible?

Have a CCDB on my 5 and had the intention of getting a rp23 for longer xc rides.The bike with 36 talas forks weighs around 32 lbs but the CCDB is so good that it feels lighter. I think you're right, the rp23 would just gather dust.

You can still build them light, even with a coil on the back. Mine came in 30lbs dead on the LBS Park scales.

Rough spec being; 36 Floats, Van RC (steel spring), Reverb, 1x10 XTR, Formula The One & new Easton Havoc wheelset tubeless with single ply Maxxis 2.35" Minions.

Hob Nob, are you using the 200x57 shock with offset bushings? sounds like a cool way to get around the slightly long rear end of the alpine while keeping the same travel. Do you know what the warranty situation is with a mod like this?

I'm not running it no, but I have tried it out of curiosity, borrowing a shock of my Mrs's bike.

The trouble is there isn't quite enough meat on the bushes to 'gain' the extra 5mm you need each end to make it perfectly stock in terms of BB height/HA. I got some offset ones made up at work at pretty much the max offset you could (Burgtec/Steamer would only do 2mm each end from memory) and it was still a little short, so raised the BB about 4mm & a negligible HA difference.

I think if I put a bit of thought into it, I could make it stock, but i'm not sure it needs it really, the bike rides pretty well IMO with a 150 front & 140 mm rear.

Warranty - well, I seem to remember reading unless is stock shock, they don't like it...

I managed to find a CCDB 2nd hand, I was in the same situation with my NP mega, air shock was good for XC but lacking everywhere else.

Fitted my CCDB and haven't looked back. First thing I noticed was how soft it felt! Which worried me a lot. Adjusted the shock a little and still felt soft, thought I best go for a ride and take a couple of spanners to adjust it. Did 15 miles with a couple of steep climbs and was amazed no bobbing but it was tracking the ground so much better. It feels like its always keeps the wheel on the floor.

The shock is so sensitive to small bumps an air shock just can't match it at all, it also feels like it never runs out of travel. I would recommend one too anyone!

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