Dressed in black at night?Is he running at 500 miles an hour, or invisible?
You're right, it could become a dangerous maneuvre should night unexpectedly fall midway through.
People do things every day that are illegal and seem inconsequential and you'll rarely persuade them to do otherwise. The important point is that if they take the decision to do <whatever> and it goes wrong they stand by that decision and face whatever consequences come their way.Can anybody give a proper valid reason for RLJing that would stand up in a court of law?
I RLJ when I think it is safe to do so and like to think my judgement is good enough to ensure nothing bad happens when I do but if it did I'd happily accept responsibility.
piedi di formaggio - Member
If people can honestly not imagine a situation where this is safe [...] you shouldn't be on road.Who's saying this?
My post wasn't really aiming at you, CheesyFeet* but actually I thought you did:
piedi di formaggio - Member
Personally I don't see any reason that a red light should be jumped
There was no mention of whether RLJ was right or wrong in your OP, just whether there was a reason for it. Conversely, I didn't say it was right or wrong, I thought I was just illustrating a possible reason.
We're no going to agree though and I've got a glass of wine and this weeks MCN to read, so I think I'll just...
EDIT: I know this isn't the translation: it's just I always think that's what it sounds like... 🙂
Can anybody give a proper valid reason for RLJing that would stand up in a court of law?
I RLJ when I think it is safe to do so and like to think my judgement is good enough to ensure nothing bad happens when I do but if it did I'd happily accept responsibility.
So that's a no, then?
The argument based on 'sometimes there is no need to obey the law' is kak. The law is a blanket set of rules that are designed to make things best for most people - usually as a result of evidence and case law. There are plenty of times I stop at a red light light, both on a bike and in a car, and think - I can *see* there is nothing coming/no one crossing, but I don't go. I think this boils down to me wanting to comply with a system I broadly agree with and although it frustrates I realise is in my general interest. Maybe in 100 years time, probably in the Netherlands, we will have evolved enough to update the law to say 'when approaching a junction, or seeing someone wanting to cross the road, it would generally be a good thing to slow down/let them cross etc' and reply on peoples' nice-ness. But whilst there are 70 million of us all trying to squeeze ourselves onto the same overloaded infrastructure, a simple set of rules is fine. Red light jumping boils down to the same thing no matter who does it - selfishness.
I commute through a city centre most days and frankly I jump red lights to make sure I'm clear of a junction before the traffic starts to move.
If people can honestly not imagine a situation where this is safe and even sensible then frankly the skills you lack in anticipation make me nervous and I'd suggest you shouldn't be on road.
Personally, I wouldn't have thought commuting through a city centre on a bike was that situation.
CaptainFlashheart - Member
Can anybody give a proper valid reason for RLJing that would stand up in a court of law?
I RLJ when I think it is safe to do so and like to think my judgement is good enough to ensure nothing bad happens when I do but if it did I'd happily accept responsibility.
So that's a no, then?
Of course it's a no. In the same way jumping a red light covering a pedestrian crossing on an empty dual carriageway at 4am in the morning when you have 500m visibility is still breaking the law.
LONG LIVE SANCTIMONEY!
If people can honestly not imagine a situation where this is safe and even sensible then frankly the skills you lack in anticipation make me nervous and I'd suggest you shouldn't be on road.
Personally, I wouldn't have thought commuting through a city centre on a bike was that situation.
I wonder if you've ever commuted through a city centre then? Imagine, you're in a left hand lane which goes left and straight ahead and you're at the head of the queue, the first three of four cars are turning left. The lights turn green and you'll find yourself cut up on more than the odd occasion by traffic turning left as it out accelerates you.
Not sure if this is as clear in type as it is in my head...
I think the trouble with red light jumping 'safely' is that you set up a grey area in your own mind. This will range from the 'perfectly safe' (you are the only creature alive after some type of apocalypse) to the perfectly unsafe, where the child's face is on the tarmac in front of you.
There is a limit to what is safe, which will invariably be different for each person, depending on their risk/hazard perception.
A single instance of RLJ may well be 'safe', but saying it is 'safe' to RLJ is completely wrong. All in my opinion.
Matt
Yes it's no, did you read the rest of my post? I'm not saying it's legal, I'm saying I make a judgement call and am happy to stand by that decision.So that's a no, then?
Do you never ever break the law in some way? I doubt it very much.
+1 It's the STW way innit.LONG LIVE SANCTIMONEY!
Clear to me, I've been in that same situation many times and would do exactly the same.Not sure if this is as clear in type as it is in my head...
Hands up who ever had an alcoholic drink in a pub before they turned 18, or bought some cigarettes before 16. That was illegal you know.
matt_bl - MemberA single instance of RLJ may well be 'safe', but saying it is 'safe' to RLJ is completely wrong
I don't see that [i]anyone[/i]'s said it's inherently safe- that'd be nuts; only that it can be done safely.
I commuted by bike into Leeds for 15 years.
I choose to obey laws because I know how few obeyed them or respected them when I was cycling to work.
Have you ever thought that folk like me who choose to stop and not go through on amber, choose to not close down gaps close to the kerb, leave 5 seconds before setting off to make sure cyclist are clear, are the ones who keep you safe?
I frequently commute late at night by bike and encounter red lights. Are you supposed to wait like a fool at the intersection for a car to come along and trigger the sensors, or do you check and ride through if clear? I do the latter.
Alternately you could hop onto the footpath, breaking the law again and push the pedestrian button.
Traffic lights were actually dangerous in many middle eastern cities and were removed. It seems many arabs thought only fools would take orders from inanimate lights and many disregarded their apparent authority.
Now they just toot their horns whenever approaching intersections at night and its a much safer place.
Busy intersections are controlled by armed policeman which assume much greater authority than an automated light. I think they're onto something personally.
Ben, just because someone admits to RLJing, they are a dangerous driver?
Life is neither polarized nor black and white.
Have you ever thought that folk like me who choose to stop and not go through on amber, choose to not close down gaps close to the kerb, leave 5 seconds before setting off to make sure cyclist are clear, are the ones who keep you safe?
No. What keeps me safe is knowing how to ride safely for the conditions and traffic, trying to anticipate other users and safe appropriate speed. But thanks anyway, Batman. 🙂
But thanks anyway, Batman.
😆
No problem citizen!
But seriously, unless you really are the resurrection, what keeps you safe on a bike is other road users being considerate and vice versa.
While I applaud your consideration for cyclists and wish more people would do the same, they don't. To assume that everyone is as considerate as you could be equally dangerous for a cyclist.Have you ever thought that folk like me who choose to stop and not go through on amber, choose to not close down gaps close to the kerb, leave 5 seconds before setting off to make sure cyclist are clear, are the ones who keep you safe?
<tongue in cheek>
If the more argumentative on the forum hadn't already taken up the opposite stance, no doubt someone would have pointed out that by driving in this manner you might actually be putting cyclists in more danger.
Bad/inconsiderate drivers don't just get frustrated with cyclists, they get frustrated if you don't pull away from the lights immediately they change and so could drive more erratically in a rush to get past that bothersome cyclist.
If out of consideration you wait "too long" to safely pass a moving cyclist on a busy road a bad/inconsiderate driver is more likely to try to nip through behind you only to be confronted by oncoming traffic and forcing the cyclist into a ditch.
</tongue in cheek>
Is TJ on a ban at the moment or something ?
I understand that a red light can be jumped safely but surely stopping for every red light is far safer?
Far safer than what?
Jumping thd odd one safely?
like Hugor I sometimes ride across a couple of intersections at night
theres one in particular which has to be triggered by a car and my weight doesnt do it...
so do i wait for a car or run the light?
in a traffic system which is designed for cars cyclists have to make their own decisions. I ve talked to coppers who agree on this...
Cyclists RLJing.
Cars RLJing.
Pedestrians crossing without looking.
I see lots of this every day.
All stupid things to do, some more stupid than others.
cynic-al - Member
Far safer than what?
Jumping thd odd one safely?
I was stating an obvious point that it's safer to stop at a red light than go through, surely waiting a light to safe to go makes more sense?
Bad/inconsiderate drivers don't just get frustrated with cyclists, they get frustrated if you don't pull away from the lights immediately they change
And not from Amber to Green, from Red to Amber. Amber is the new Green. Certainly on my commute in Central London. Pretty much everybody: buses, cyclists, cars, scooters, motorcycles, taxis, lorries; goes on amber.
All of them are breaking the law. Wrong or right, safe or unsafe, it's as illegal as murder.
Red light jumping is wrong whatever the circumstances, there's no excuse for it. To say there's a safe way to jump a red light is utter twaddle, the same as saying there's a safe way to stick your hand in front of a revolving circular saw.
What really hacks me off about red light jumpers is that they are showing [b]contempt[/b] for the laws that most of us obey. Their actions are utterly selfish and without any consideration for fellow citizens. I hope the victim sues the balls off the RLJer in the case linked.
To say there's a safe way to jump a red light is utter twaddle
What if you can clearly see that there's no traffic from either direction?
Rlj-ing can be done safely but its still not "right" if you get caught doing it you can give your reasons in mitigation and see if it gets you out of trouble. if you actually hit/injure someone then you obviously weren't doing it safely and will get the book thrown at you, as you should. would kinda suck if you got jail time for breaking someones arm/leg while so many drivers get away with killing people due to innatention tho
And when a say suck i mean it'd be a ****ing travesty of justice, of which seem to be quite common
I give up.
I'm dumbfounded at the idiocy, sanctimoney and inflexibility shown here.
What if you can clearly see that there's no traffic from either direction?
This is where the grey area appears, what if someone who comes out from a shop/side street etc see's green and runs to cross.
getting up to a full sprint while he's still in the shop, bursting out the door and throwing himself at your front wheel?
FFS Al, learn to spell the big words !LONG LIVE SANCTIMONEY!
Excellent.
Another thread full of self-righteous cyclists defending their choice of deliberately breaking the law and jumping red lights.
Then in another breath the same riders probably bemoan motorists not treating cyclists with respect etc etc
🙄
go on then how many were defending it? Plenty saying it could be done safely but that that in itself doesn't make it a good idea. Plenty more saying it's a bad thing. Full?Another thread full of self-righteous cyclists defending their choice of deliberately breaking the law and jumping red lights.
edit and most motorists treat us with disrespect coz we are different, not the norm, freaky, basically they hate us coz we're in a different gang, basic human behaviour. It's very little to do with how we behave, they just bring up RLJing as a rentaquote, loads of motorists RLJ too.
It's very little to do with how we behave
If only that were true! Was the irony intentional?
Looks like another "Me, myself, I" debate....
Who says the pedestrian didn't look ? He may have done so but not seen the cyclist.
The judge didn't award larger damages as a civil action will follow. I don't understand how the cyclist has stayed out of prison.
I hope the cyclist get's taken to the cleaners financially.
seriously?If only that were true! Was the irony intentional?Looks like another "Me, myself, I" debate....
Surely the whole point of traffic lights is that it presents a uniform language or system that all understand and are expected to abide by.
Red light = stop
green light = go
It presents an objective control - everyone abides by the rules/language, minimal chance of things going wrong/people getting hurt.
If you RLJ in a car/bike/lorry/by foot/spaceship, you're making a subjective judgement call and are acting without informing other road users of your intentions = you're not following the common rules/system/language.
If no-one else is expecting what you're going to do, accidents are more likely to happen.
Why is the cyclist always the bad guy in this? Pedestrians are constantly crossing roads when their light is green (or at places where there is no light at all) and no-one ever says they shouldn't be doing it.
red lights are there because there is deemed to be a significant risk at that junction
No they aren't. It's just to give everyone a turn and keep the traffic flowing. Risk has bugger all to do with it. Look at a countryside crossroads with high hedges etc. It's tricky to see what's coming, but there are no lights as there is little traffic flow to control.
---------------------------------
Anyway. I jump red lights all the time. I really, honestly don't give the slightest toss what anyone thinks of it.
Why do I do it?
Mostly, just becasue I can, and I know I can get away with it. (Lets be honest here....!)
Otherwise, becasue I get from A to B faster. Simple
.
