I've read through as much as I could find on the subject but still can't decide between these two frames. I want a budget build HT that is just as good in climbing as it is for DH (also would like to jump it). I would be using it as my only bike so it has to be decent in both while being able to put up with my 220 lb body. I was thinking about putting on pikes with U-turn. I was also wondering how the blue pig would compare (even though I don't think I'd want to pay anything past the cost of the On-One). I live in Saint Andrews, Fife during the school year but I live in Seattle, WA during the summer so it has to put up with the mountains. Any advice?
My 456 seems pretty good. Never had a shot of the summer season though.
I've just built a single speed summer season up and i love it, running it with 140mm forks and everything feels just right i was amazed to how slack it actually feels, dropping the seat post on my 16 inch pratically gives you a jump bike, i wouldn't look back.
a jump bike should have quite a steep HA really and run short travel forks, slam the forks to 100mm and it'd be fairly close tho... 😉dropping the seat post on my 16 inch pratically gives you a jump bike
jump/4X hardtails generally descend very well and don't actually need a lot more than 100mm travel IMO.. a slack H/A alone is not as important as some people on forums these days seem to think, especially since it's the manouverability, ease of changing lines, sprinting out of corners and pumping/jumping through tight twisty sections where hardtails excell on DH tracks (and in some sections can be faster than a DH bike) but the slacker H/A of the summer season should feel a little more stable at high speed than the standard 456 and with the fork wound down to 95mm shouldn't feel too slack for hitting steep lipped dirt jumps. Without knowing where exactly it's to be used or how fast/skilled the rider is it's tricky to call but If I had to have one as my only bike it'd have to be the summer season but with a 100mm fork, short stem, long seatpost and QR clamp and in a smaller frame size than you would choose for XC. climbing will be more cramped but I'd always rather sacrifice that than have a bike that jumps/pumps/manuals badly.
No need to show off GW 😛
Cypher - I wouldn't beat yourself up too much over it and I like the fact you have to [i]put up[/i] with the mountains of Seattle in the summer 😆
Loads of discussion on this site eg. [url= http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/on-one-fanbois-how-does-a-summer-season-differ-from-a-regular-inbred-geometry ]HERE[/url]. I've had both and as long as you put an adjustable fork on it you can tune the handling to the terrain and your own preference.
My advice on whether to buy a 456 or Summer Season would be to get the colour you like best 😉
I loved my Summer Season but ruined it when I put Pikes on (409's - they heavy cheaper ones)
It was wicked with 130mm coil revelations but I don't think they're available any longer. Shame I sold them to fund the Pikes....
The frame turned me int a hooligan rider. Gave so much confidence it was unreal.
Now I have a 456 (ti) with 454 coil Pikes (the dear light ones) and its superb. As most folk argue about the difference between steel and ti on here being negligable, I guess my ti456 might be close enough for a comparison to be made.
456 with Pikes is great. Summer Season with 130mm coil revelations is great too. Summer Season at 120mm felt "right" to me I guess where as the 456 feels right at 140. Guess that probably gives the same head angle on both.
Summer Season did suffer terrible chain suck though, which the 456 never has. Not sure that's a frame thing though.
Either way, I think both bikes will be great. Summer Season will be a bit burlier as it uses plain gauge tubing (not slimmed out in the middle) like the 456.
I have an 18" 456 with Air U turn Pikes and a 16" 456SS with coil 456 Pikes. I'm 6'1 so the SS has to have a 400mm post at full extension but I like a small frame to whip about. I don't really used the 456 any more for trail centres but do use it for longer natural rides (Peaks etc) as it's lighter and more comfy.
456SS - Good for a few hours blasting but becomes a real ball breaker after a few hours. Brilliant fun though
456 - Good for 'all mountain' stuff and as an all dayer, almost as fun as a 456SS but just not quite..
If you get the Radley (1.5" HT) you can put a K9 cup kit in the head tube and have any head angle you want?
Wasn't the thinking behind the SS ... the very slack HA allowed you to run shorter forks than you would on a 456?
Much of what you read indicates that people are sticking long forks on SS, which is sort of missing the point 😉
Yes, apparently. Run 105mm MX Comps on my 456SS and it feels mint. Still loads slacker than many things out there and its LOADS quicker downhill than my old Soul with 130s on it. Such a fun bike, wasn't expecting much for £90 (second hand) but its brilliant. Wouldn't want one as a jump bike, as its been mentioned a steeper HA is better for jumping but for general messing around, short blasts around the woods and riding things that should be too steep, its brilliant.
Like coolhandluke I ran my Summer Season with 130mm coil U-turn Revs (great fork, don't know why they stopped making it) and it's a real hooligan's bike - great downhill and gives you a feeling of invincibility but heavy enough to make going uphill a real pain. I'm the same weight as the OP so gave it quite a hammering. I've heard about chain suck problems but never had it myself, I suspect it may be build-dependent.
Now have a 456ti also with the 130mm revs and that's much better for climbing, particularly with the forks wound down to 100mm, but not quite so good on the downhills - it feels a bit more delicate somehow although I suspect in reality it's just as strong. Standard 456 I would guess is likely to be a compromise between the 2 so may be perfect for what you're looking for. It's also cheap enough that if you don't get on with it it's not too much of a loss to ebay it, or keep as a spare frame in case of disasters!
btw whereabouts is there to ride in Seattle? Everywhere I looked round there seemed to be state or national parks so bikes where banned!
wow thanks for all of the responses 🙂 There are actually a fair ammount of trails around Washington you just have to look in the right places 🙂 I check the Cascade Bicycle Club (CBC) website for a fairly long list of trails. They have pretty good details on them and maintain/build them as well. I also can go with the Friends of Capitol Forest (FCOF) down in Olympia who do rides a few times a week and have shuttle runs on saturday and sunday. I'm also a 4 hr drive away from whistler and have family that lives near so I have a pretty good pick of trails over there. I'm in the process of building up a Bullit for freeride/dh duties but since I am going to school here and a Bullit is a bit overbuilt for the trails here, from what I've been told, I think that a HT would fit me best while helping me work on technique. I wanted the cheapest decent frame that I would be able to use for everything so I looked at on-one based on a friend's suggestion and bikeradar.
Oh and @ Woody: lol I love the mountains in WA, I don't "put up" with them, my bike just has to "put up" with my Clydesdale ass 😛
So from what I've read so far:
a slack HA acts sort of like a steering dampener on a motorcycle? Where it causes the bike to be less responsive to hits but makes the turning more difficult? Also I was planing on going with 454 pikes w/ uturn, not the lower model.
On-One 456
-Lighter/less durable
-More AM
-For longer travel forks (around 140mm)
-Less stable on fast/steep decents
-Faster/lighter turning
On-One 456 Summer Season
-heavier/more durable
-More DH
-For shorter travel forks (around 120mm)
-More stable on fast/steep decents
-heavier turning
I guess what I meant with jumps was less about DJ and more about freeride but I don't really want to lose that much climbing ability if the dh abilities only increase by a small ammount. I am changing from a Kona Coiler because it is a bit heavy/overbuilt for a lot of climbing but I do enjoy going down more than going up lol...idk what the trails are like around here too since I haven't had much time to explore them but I have heard there are a few around Fife and Edinburgh. Thanks for the help so far 🙂
The first batch of summer Seasons were plain guage tubing so slightly heavier but shouldn't be much stronger as the center of the tubes is only (well, mainly) loaded in compression/tension so doesn't need the extra material, hence nearly all frame tubes being butted on bikes. Not sure about newer models, they might be the same tubeset so maybe ask on-one directly. I wouldnt say either was stronger though, just one is lighter than the other.
I had 150mm Z1's (which are seriously long compared to pikes) on my standard 456 and it was ace, certainly fast enough for the back end to just feel like a brake over rough stuff, either I'd chicken out and brake or if just couldn't carry any more speed. But that was in Spain where there are propper mountains and rocks 🙂 In the UK it handles fine with 130mm menjas which I think are still almost overkill.
get an ns surge instead, better for DH, doesn't appear (in my experiance) to be very compromised uphill either 🙂
thanks for all of the replies 🙂 This has really helped me clear some things up 😀
I ride my SS in Ireland and:
- with a rigid fork it was fun,
- with a 29er front wheel and a rigid fork it was better,
- with a Manitou Black 120mm it felt low at the front (but I had no rise in the stem),
- with a Manitou Nixon 145mm it felt good (especially around Swinley) but the fork was underwhelming,
- with Fox 36 Talas R there was too much tinkering done to know what's best,
- with Bombers Z1SL 150mm it's fine unless climbing steep trails.
I also have some Pace forks, one day they might end up on the frame, who knows?
FAIW I bought the SS as I liked the looks better. I'm not good enough to worry about weight and the slacker angles work for me (steep ones too, I only ride 1 bike at a time so can't directly compare).
Considered one of the cheap Mmmbops that's still washing around?
a slack HA acts sort of like a steering dampener on a motorcycle? Where it causes the bike to be less responsive to hits but makes the turning more difficult? Also I was planing on going with 454 pikes w/ uturn, not the lower model
Where did you get this from?
The only thing that'd act like a motorcycle steering damper on a mountainbike would be a mountain bike steering damper.
A couple of degrees slacker H/A will not make the suspension less responsive.
slacker H/A bikes should be run with shorter stems and turning should not be more difficult, just different.
oh.. and IMO Coolhandluke is talking shite about the weight of his heavier Pike 409 ruining his. the difference in weight between the Pike 454 Air he's now running and a 409 coil is only around 200g.
Steering damper, not sure why you would need one,would think it would feel like an over tight headset [url= http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5125/5204146575_faa1d90b14.jp g" target="_blank">
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/stue1/5204146575/ ]011208hopey[/url]
"where is there to ride in Seattle"
There are the trails under the freeway http://evergreenmtb.org/colonnade/ which are super cool and stay dry year round and starting this summer there will be the new stevens pass bikepark which is going to be awesome! There is also a little place called Leavenworth that has some really cools trails around the town.
haha... I know that it wouldn't fully act like a steering dampener... the reason that I said that was because I read a few places that the slacker angle makes the front end more stable during higher speeds because it cuts out the movement caused by hitting smaller stuff. A moktorcycle steering dampener does the same thing by keeping the front end stable when you hit a pothole, big rock, etc. If I'm wrong than I want to make sure it's clear because I do hate misinformation. I just found it in a few places. I'm new to mtb but have a background in motorcycles so I might have made a big leap, but I was just trying to figure it all out lol.... I also might be jumping the spectrum to get the Evil Sovereign instead. What I was planning on doing was building up a cheap HT for XC/light DH/light FR/AM pretty much anything and then build up a Santa Cruz Bullit for FR/DH/shuttle runs for back home. But I am getting more convinced by my friend to pick up a new Evil instead of running both bikes. It's hard for me to choose the evil when I can spend $200 more to get a Bullit though. I also talked to the local club here and they said that it is mostly XC but I want it to be FR capeable for those days that I want to just screw around. I might have to put off the Bullit Build till summer 2012..lol...or I might just keep the coiler for FR and then transfer the parts to a Bullit frame when I have the spare cash after building up the evil. I'll be spending most of my year in scotland and only summers in Seattle for now so I might as well build a bike for the main part of the year no matter how nice that Bullit looks 😛