[Closed] No one on here would be as stupid.....

Hopefully not, but I've spoken to plenty students where I work who have done just that. Even with a map and compass when the visibility goes it can be easy to lose your bearings. I have one friend who even if he isn't leading the walk / ride will still take his own map and compass and check frequently, his philosophy being 'don't trust anyone else'.

“The 18 individuals involved all appear to have been attempting to navigate within the Cairngorms using smartphone-type technology.

“Whilst all were traced safe and well, it is disappointing to both the police and the mountain rescue teams that there appeared to be a complete reliance on a navigation technology which we would consider unsuitable for the terrain these groups are traversing.

Are they saying there is something inherently inadequate about using 'smartphone-type technology' to navigate in these mountains, or is it just that people rely too much on it and don't have the backup of an OS map and even basic navigation skills?

I know a guy in mountain rescue who does navigation training and he uses MM on an iPhone quite a bit.

Going up with no skillz at all is a bit silly regardless of what equipment you take but I don't think it's fair to pick on the phones per se.

... Unless he means tomtom or something, then they're total fools. If it was a OS-based mappy thing then I'd guess it'd be more useful in thick fog than a map, and generally no worse other than not being able to overview large areas in detail all at once

I imagine they were trying to walk by google maps. Probably no signal for raster downloads and even then google isnt much cop for detail 🙂

Doesn't surprise me, frequently get people in here want to go off over the moors but will not by a map.

I wish we had wolves...

From the CI's comments...

while technology can and does play an important part in raising the alarm or assisting navigation, it appears we may be about to witness a marked increase in the [b]complete reliance[/b] of smartphone apps to navigate some of the UK’s highest mountains.

“What is particularly concerning is that the individuals who are relying on this apparently inappropriate technology often [b]do not possess even rudimentary mountain navigation skills[/b].

Doesn't surprise me in the slightest

Back in the day people were climbing Ben Nevis with their lunch in a carrier bag nothing changes

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/sailor-using-road-map-to-navigate-is-rescued-710914.html ]A solo yachtsman who uses an AA road map to navigate was warned yesterday by the coastguard to seek advice before setting out to sea after he was rescued nine times in a year.[/url]

Sounds like a problem with the user, not the equipment. Smartphone is always my primary (with OS maps pre loaded and a back-up battery), much better than a paper map in many ways, IMHO.

I'm summer and Winter ML qualified (although a long time ago) but did have to resort to iPhone GPS after wandering off the path and realising I was descending steep cliffs, in poor visibility in snow last year in the Lakes. Quite embarrassed about it to be honest...

there appeared to be a complete reliance on a navigation technology which we would consider unsuitable for the terrain these groups are traversing.

guns don't kill people, people kill people

I always take a map and GPS. Always both.

GPS can fail (although not often).

Sometimes it's hard for me to get an accurate compass bearing in bad weather, or i want to double check something before setting off with limited daylight left etc.

There's a whole school of thought that you shouldn't ever rely on GPS, however my own map reading skills have let me down more often than GPS! 🙂

I'm going on a night navigation course this winter to brush up on my blind nav.

Map reading is an essential skill in the mountains, that's for sure. But GPS is a valuable back up/confirmation.

Map reading is an essential skill in the mountains, that's for sure. But GPS is a valuable back up/confirmation.

This +1

BikePawl - Member

I'm really struggling to get my head round this, I understand the error of having a complete reliance on one system, but are they saying that the smartphone technology is unsuitable for this terrain. If so why?

the battery in a smartphone doesn't last long when the gps widget is turned on...

^^^^I know, carry a recharging battery unit or only switch it on when you need it. Hence why I said they should explain the errors not just blame smart phone technology.

There's a whole school of thought that you shouldn't ever rely on GPS, however my own map reading skills have let me down more often than GPS!

Yep!

Personally I'd put a lot more faith in the grid ref provided by my phone than one I've vaguely worked out by taking rough compass bearings off a few landmarks that I think I can identify correctly through fog. 😀

Nowt wrong with using technology. It's [i]complete reliance[/i] that's bad, as the bloke says.

the battery in a smartphone doesn't last long when the gps widget is turned on...

I can get 5 hours on my iPhone recording a GPS track. More if I turn off the other guff.
And double that if I stick a battery pack on (which I would if I needed it).

I suppose it depends on the situation. There's one fundamental difference, though - with a map and compass, if you're using them properly, then you always know where you are. With a GPS, if you're just following the instructions, then the GPS knows where you are but you don't.

This is assuming they weren't doing something really daft like relying on the iPhone map app which needs a net connection to get data...

Back in the day people were climbing Ben Nevis with their lunch in a carrier bag nothing changes

There isn't actually anything wrong with that though. Its not very convenient, but not dangerous in itself

Two years ago we had a bloke and his son turn up on our Club Beach in Chichester Harbour.

He'd bought an ex fishing boat off ebay from a guy in Falmouth and was planning to take it back home to Newcastle..

Only nav on board was a road map too.. He got into difficulty when he hit the submarine barrier off Southsea and it started to sink.. fair play he made it another 7Nm to the Harbour entrance before his feet got wet and the engine cut out.

It remained on the beach for 2 weeks whilst the MCA started prosecutions and eventually sold for scrap to pay the fine off.

We put the bloke and his son up in the Club accomodation and he bought us all drinks.
Nice chap, but nieve.

With a GPS, if you're just following the instructions, then [s]the GPS knows where you are but you don't.[/s] you're an idiot

FTFY 😀

True 🙂

[url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/8648011.stm ]more of what "maps" can achieve[/url]

Rocketman

Folk were walking up Ben Nevis on Saturday with carrier bags so nowt has changed. A couple of dafties also carried their bikes up to ride down. Who would be so silly as to do that eh? ....... (cue an eerie silence save for a light wind and tumbleweed rolling across the screen)

Folk will always do daft things on the mountains. As long as they learn from the experience and no one is hurt rescuing them, it's not the end of the world.

Most of the time, being lucky and not clever works. 😀

cupra - Member

Map reading is an essential skill in the mountains, that's for sure. But GPS is a valuable back up/confirmation.

This +1

Maps are equally valid as a backup to GPS. I assume in this case they had inadequate mapping of some sort. A proper GPS with good mapping is more than adequate. After all most of the display ones these days are just an OS map with an arrow on it which is fine under most circumstances.

I'm not sure I agree with the "having a map is essential as is knowing how to use it" statements these days. Having a suitable gps mapping system and knowing how to use it is just as good if not better.

IIRC gps is the primary means of navigation for ships and boats and the paper map is just a backup.

What do the army use these days?

The armed forces are trained to use maps. In fact, GPS signal is often disabled in training areas.

I'm not sure I agree with the "having a map is essential as is knowing how to use it" statements these days. Having a suitable gps mapping system and knowing how to use it is just as good if not better.

I'd say in most cases it's better and I only take a map as backup - but if you're only taking a smartphone with mapping, what happens if you fall over and smash it on a rock?

I'd say in most cases it's better and I only take a map as backup - but if you're only taking a smartphone with mapping, what happens if you fall over and smash it on a rock?

Granted, I did say proper gps which will probably withstand the odd knock and a bit of rain.

What happens if your map blows away in a storm?

I was pretty gutted when mountain rescue plucked me off the top of the mountains i was on a strava run an forgot to turn my phone off in the helicopter so some bloke flagged my kom an its been wiped, it was foggy up there mind

[quote=grum ]I'd say in most cases it's better and I only take a map as backup That's my current position. I am somewhat worried I'm losing my micro-navigation skills though. I should make a point of practising.

I navigated up and down Cairngorm in a white out once with Google Maps on a blackberry. It was very useful for knowing exactly where the cornice was. Of course we were also using a map & compass but the blackberry was much more accurate. If you can get a signal then why not use the phone?

I've also been mislead by maps in the past so they're not infallible. I had a sobering lesson in the inaccuracies of OS maps when navigating off Beinn Alligin in bad weather with a 5-month pregnant Mrs Daz. What clearly looked like a nice (but steep) grassy slope with a stream running down it on the map turned into a near vertical rocky gully and a maze of sandstone terraces and 20-30ft crags 🙁

In fact, GPS signal is often disabled in training areas.

You can't selectively disable GPS....

EDIT you can jam it locally, but it's very difficult to jam it over a wide area as you need a *lot* of power...

Surely old technolgies eventually become redundant?
Anyone here use the sun to tell the time and rubs sticks to light their Trangia?