[Closed] Nicolai UK, Nicolai warranty experience, read on..

I dont know much about Nicolai, but it seems they are not being unreasonable based on their assumption you bent it.
Just remember you dont necessarily have to have crashed to bend something.
You are in a difficult situation as it would seem that after nearly a year of use the damage developed, so it would not appear to be a manufacturing fault, or a crack which would suggest a defect on manufacture, so in UK law you wuold have to prove that it is a fault that was there from new. Which I dont know how you would do.

You may not have any idea how you damaged it, but it appears you damaged it.
so you may have to accept the repair of the damaged part.

does sound like crush rather than impact caused it?

You say it's not been ridden much could it have been damaged in storage?

Crush damage seems the obvious answer, except when it is in storage it is hung by the front wheel. I tried to ascertain what level of load would be required to deform the strut without leaving a visble impact mark (in my mind the only thing that could do this is being run over by a car in a RTC) but this was not answered and I was told to ask Germany. They didn't answer it either.

I haven't been trying to pull a fast one, if I stack a bike and its mangled, fair enough I'll pay to have it repaired. But in this case I bought two bikes from Nicolai UK (one for Mrs Soulwood) and as such I would have expected a "benefit of the doubt" to be applied rather than the "Its been hit pay up" response. I can't help but think that if I had bought a Trek or some other brand then they would have weighed up the customer service/satisfaction side first.

Oh and not take nearly 3 months to resolve it and not expect you to pay to send it to the manufacturers for them to inspect as well.

I agree, you should have had to pay to ship to UK distributer, not Germany.

What a bunch of rsoles.

Not exactly a glowing review of the warrenty support from the UK distributer or the german manufacturer for a supposedly prestige frame.
That ignoring the actual fault and just going by your description of the responses from both when try to make a claim. If you buy from a UK distributer why are "you" expected to send it back to Germany?

I thought these Nicolia were supposed to be bombproof.
Going by this and the "ex-demo" nicolia thread (what happened with that in the end?), it would seem very much not.

Be interested to see what Nicolia UK have to say on the matter...

Yeah - "take it to 18 bikes" and "send it back to Germany" aren't really acceptable responses from the UK Distributor.

What reason did the UK importer give for making you deal directly with Germany and paying to post it there yourself?

Sounds a bit out of order I agree, but did you point out that you shouldn't have to?

You are forgetting you are dealing with a German company.

they dont do benefit of the doubt etc.

They would analyse the damage, review the timeline and make a decision.
Seems like they arent being totally unfair, however, Id be more unhappy with whoever you bought it from, surely its their responsibility to follow this up as your warranty claim is with them not the manufacturer.

I felt bad for 18 bikes, it was those guys that pointed me towards the Nicolai brand in the first place as they had just become dealers. I was limited to a frame that could match a 100mm fork as I couldn't afford a new fork as well. I went on the Nicolai UK website and saw the CC's for £1250 (usually at 2K with shock). I contacted them expecting that they would send it to 18 bikes for me to buy. But it was sold to me directly, and then I was told to take it to them to inspect for a possible warranty issue!

I usually start off any query with companies in a co-operative manner, and then if I have to get stroppy I can use such facts in the final case. However in this instance I just cannot be a***d to waste my time on this shower anymore.

Anyone interested in a large black & white Helius CC, due to arrive in the UK soon? Complete with a 4 yr warranty?!?

You dont need to cause damage to bend something, a mate crashed and bent his DMR frame (you could see the mis alignment between the headtube and the seattube). Looking over it there were no marks anywhere that we could attribute to the crash.

I'm not a lawyer but.....

If you mark the payment as being made under protest (i.e. you don't think it's right but you have to pay it to get things sorted) you could then go back through the small claims court to reclaim it if it genuinly was a warrnety issue?

Sancho, I agree that the quoted repair costs are reasonable, something I said to Nicolai UK from the beginning. However the bike while in my possession never received an impact to the right strut and has never been crushed while in storage or transport with a load that I would consider would have to be substantial to deform it. My question was could the tubing be at fault? Just because it didn't fail catastrophically on day one of riding it doesn't rule it out. Simon at Nicolai even admitted that he had never seen such an issue with any of the frames he had sold, but still refused to accept that it may be faulty!

Problem for you Soulwood is that for you to get a warranty replacement you would have to prove the fault.

Which is going to be difficult and may be very time consuming and expensive in itself.
In the eyes of Nicolai, you had the frame for a reasonable period of time before the problem arose, so to them it would not have been a manufacturing defect, so again it might be possible to prove but at what cost.

Sancho, fully aware of these facts, and also aware of the fact that Nicolai UK have used this knowledge to their (short term) benefit. I for one would not recommend the customer service from Nicolai UK.

you had the frame for a reasonable period of time before the problem arose, so to them it would not have been a manufacturing defect

This!

If it was wrong from new, then it should not have taken over a year for you to notice it. Metal tubes don't just bend, either it was defective from new, or something has happened to it since.

Whats happened to it in that year, only you know, and its more than reasonable for Nicolai to put "we've never seen that before" "well, in the experience of our workshop guys, its been damaged" and "he's had it for over a year" together as 2 plus 2 plus 2 equalling six.

The difficulty is in assessing bike usage in pure terms of how long you have owned it. How many people use their FS every day? every weekend? especially when you have family and work commitments? I estimated that I had ridden the Helius less than 10 times in the 12 months I owned it, due to factors mentioned above and an illness over the winter. I have a rigid 29er for commuting duties and for rides where the FS was "over biked" so the Helius didn't get used that much. But its just my word against theirs isn't it? It's for a business owner to weigh up whether they think its worth giving the benefit of the doubt to a (valued?)customer or to treat him like a child.

Zulu-Eleven - Member
If it was wrong from new, then it should not have taken over a year for you to notice it. Metal tubes don't just bend, either it was defective from new, or something has happened to it since.

Whats happened to it in that year, only you know, and its more than reasonable for Nicolai to put "we've never seen that before" "well, in the experience of our workshop guys, its been damaged" and "he's had it

I don't think Nicolai Germany's response is an unfair one. But the OP having to drag the frame around to a bike shop he didn't buy from, and send the frame to Germany isn't OK. Distributor should have taken care of all that.

No, I don't think how many times you've used it is an issue really, either it was damaged from new or it wasn't. I cannot see how an alloy tube is supposed to have warped of its own accord.

If it was, then it shouldnt have taken you a year to notice, the fact that it did, is your problem, not theirs, and they shouldnt have to give the benefit of the doubt if the delay was down to you rather than them.

But the OP having to drag the frame around to a bike shop he didn't buy from, and send the frame to Germany isn't OK. Distributor should have taken care of all that.

I got the impression they were reasonable in asking a dealer to take a look first, and clearly the dealer was very good and deserves kudos for being willing to take on the extra work despite having not made the sale - but in the end he did buy direct from Nicolai, and got a significantly reduced price in return... what the lord giveth, the lord taketh away.

I wouls mention, I've dealt with the guys at Nicolai UK myself, and found them to be professional and very keen to build and protect the brand, I'd be suprised if they had not considered things very carefully before refusing a warranty.

I'm trying to be impartial and sympathetic, but I'm in the trade workign for another company, and see a fair number of warranty claims where people are just being unreasonable in their expectations of what a company should do, where ultimatley, its down to the customers own incompetence. I see my own companies warranty cases, and we certianly very rarely refuse, and generally give the benefit of the doubt, but you have to draw a line somewhere, and frequently those people on the wrong side of that line shout very loudly about how hard done by they are.

somehow we see bikes as special, but if you had a TV for a year before taking it back saying the case was cracked from new, then you would be laughed at.

If I had a claim, whether a valid one or not, I'd expect to be able to send the frame to the distributor, and get a response one way or the other from them. If the claim is invalid, fair enough, I'll pay for a repair.

I would't be happy with being sent around to a shop, nor being hit with the cost of sending the frame to the manufacturer. It should be the distributor's call to make.

That said, if the distributor made the call and said it wasn't a valid claim, and the OP didn't accept that and demanded that it be investigated further, then that's possibly a different story.

Z11, thats a black and white answer to a matter of varying shades of grey. Mrs Soulwood received her Helius CC one week before she came down with mycoplasma pneumonia. One year on and she can manage a 30 min walk. So by your reasoning, if on her first ride it developed a fault then she's had it has she? Customer service is about dealing with people, not robots.

Sounds like it was a fun winter round your house, SW...

Sounds like you should have bought an Orange to me.

"but in the end he did buy direct from Nicolai, and got a significantly reduced price in return... what the lord giveth, the lord taketh away."

Ultimately is this the answer? Don't buy direct from Nicolai UK? What about any warranty issues stemming from purchases from dealers?

Yes, absolutley its about dealing with people.

but like anything, you have to draw a line between what is "reasonable" and "not reasonable" somewhere - I happen to think that in this case, it sounds like they have, and whilst I have every sympathy for Mrs Soulwoods situation healthwise, I cannot see that as being Nicolai's responsibility.

What about any warranty issues stemming from purchases from dealers?

Again, I don't see it as unreasonable asking you to pay for the return to the factory for inspection in a case where it was so far out of the ordinary by being a year old - I would consider it differently if it were a couple of weeks old, in which case a return to UK distributor would be a fair request.

Ultimately though this whole matter has been a learning experience. Recently watched Batman Begins "Why do we fall Master Wayne? To learn how to get up" I bought a frame that even without the shock was easily three times the cost a a Cotic Soul. I owned a Soul for 6 yrs without incident, and was for the most part my only bike. Did it develop an unusual deformation with no obvious sign of impact? No.

Did I really enjoy my biking to the power of 3 when I rode this bike? Occasionally yes. Was it worth it for the grief of this after less than a year? No.

Will I be returning to purchase 2K frames to pedal around the Peak district when a £500 HT is sufficient? I don't know.

Z11, you are not STW version of Jeremy Paxman. You are a troll. Get back under your bridge.

The problem here surely lies with Nicolai UK. I agree with Z11 re the damage and given that the evidence points to you bending it (whether you say so or not) then the deal for a new rear end sounds very reasonable. However since you bought the frame from Nicolai UK it should have been a case of return it to us and we'll sort it from here, not the option they offered which was very poor. If that is the case then you may as well just buy from Nicolai in Germany direct and the UK guys can all go find new jobs.

What - because someone who works in the industry (for another company) disagrees with you, and thinks you're being a bit unreasonable in what you expect from them, they're a troll?

Again, I don't see it as unreasonable asking you to pay for the return to the factory for inspection in a case where it was so far out of the ordinary by being a year old - I would consider it differently if it were a couple of weeks old, in which case a return to UK distributor would probably be a fair request.

Warranty on those bikes is five years. So whether it's returned after a few woeks or a year should make little difference.

Gotama regardless why did the OP have to pay carriage costs?

could it be it was always bent, but only showed up once the bushings etc wore? I don't know whether that'd cause the symptoms as described?

Just buy a Turner. Ask Hora about his experience with their CS.

Hora - Errm i think i agree with you but may not have been clear. Shouldn't have had to pay for the cost to return the frame to Nicolai in Germany, that's daft. OP pays to send back to the distributor in the UK (£25?) and they take it from there re getting it back to Germany. If it had been a warranty job then they also offer a refund of the postage cost as well as a new rear. Given that it appears the OP has damaged the frame then a new rear end at a significant reduction seems fair enough. Nicolai in Germany then either send the frame direct to the OP or via the UK distributor.

I'm a firm believer in customer service. Not make a sale and ignore unless the punter comes back with a wad of cash.

Gotama, the lengthy delay is ridiculous though.

Why not 'oh that doesn't sound right, as you bought it direct using the mail order/regs we'll get it collected asap and will comeback to you as soon as we've discovered the issue'.

MerlinCycles cameback to me within two hours with a solution.

Considering I'd bought a frame at cost price in the sale that was bloody good customer service.

Bent without damage - Badly packed bike bag on a flight?

By the way i sympathise with the OP but can see why Nicolai refuse to replace as a warranty.

Agree- sounds feasible but why the long delay in resolution?

Length of delay open to interpretation as you don't know how long the OP took to respond to Nicolai given he had more important things going on in his life and ultimately it will all have been dragged out due to arguing over cost. It went back to Nicolai in August, when did they first reply is prob a better way to judge them.

I have no idea how a bike factory works but i presume they have a quality control system that checks everything is straight before leaving the factory hence why they will believe its the OPs fault. Now it could have been bent by the UK distributor, bent in shipping to the OP or bent by him but unless someone owns up to it then the evidence points to the user bending it.

Anyone interested in a large black and white Helius CC, due to arrive in the UK soon? Complete with a 4 yr warranty?!?

I am, if that's a serious question.

I struggle to see how you bent it without knowing as the rear triangle on the CC is built out of extruded box section!

It sounds like the type of damage most likely to occur at the hands of a courier stacking heavy stuff on top of the frame box when it was enroute from Germany to Nicolai UK or from them to you. Sadly that's almost impossible to determine now and it would seem strange that it didn't exhibit the problems from new if that was the case.

Don't cut of your nose to spite your face though by selling it. Too good a bike to sell just because you're angry with the distributor/manufacturer.

How did you pay for it? cash or cc?

The first port of call for any queries about a frame is our dealer network. They have experience of servicing and adjustment of the frames and, in most cases, can solve any problems an owner is having. For most people this is far easier, and cheaper, than shipping a bike to us.

The frame was sold direct as it was end-of-line but, given Phil was Sheffield based, it made more sense for him to visit 18Bikes than ship it to us in London, especially if it might have been a simple fix.

The warranty on the frame is with the manufacturer not with the distributor. They are the only one who can make a decision on whether a frame is warranty or not – it makes no difference who you purchase from.

I don’t know why the Phil paid so much to ship the frame – checking again today £1000 insurance cover is available for <£50 today using the carrier we suggested in the box size in which we ship frames.

Delays were not all due to us. Germany did take 3 weeks to examine the frame but the owner took 3 weeks to ship the frame to Germany. Phil's emails to me were, I believe, always responded to within 48 hours but then sometimes met with > 2 weeks of silence.

The factory assessment was that this was NOT a warranty issue and that this damage could not have occurred in normal use.

Phil demanded “evidence that clearly shows that the deformation of the strut could realistically be caused by the owner in normal everyday applications. I would expect that this would take the form of information providing answers to the following questions. 1) What measurable load would the strut have to be subjected to in order to cause that deformation? 2) How could that kind of load/stress have to be applied to that strut so as not to leave a visible impact mark?”. We could no more ‘prove’ this than he could prove that nothing had ever happened to the frame.

We had discussed this with Germany and Phil, and offered him a choice of a) realignment b) replacement of the struts or c) a discount against a new frame. After a number of emails we were at stalemate. Nicolai had told us that they did not consider this a warranty issue and the owner was not prepared to accept their decision. We had done as much as we could do, short of taking the hit ourselves, so passed him on to Germany.

Great response Simon.
Loving the CC.
Richard