After releasing the new drivetrain concept, protecting mechs Here The mentioned bike manufacturer has jumped in and it appears to be Nicolai, who aren’t strangers to left field drivetrain options.
No, I haven’t, before you ask. Would love a go though.
I'm just not breaking derailleurs often enough to justify such an ugly bike.
Not sure it’s that dissimilar from other idler bikes, I don’t mind the looks. Nicolais have always had an ‘industrial’ look.
All that faff and bother and still not all wheel drive. Shakes head.
All that faff and bother and still not all wheel drive. Shakes head.
Unicycles FTW.
That seat mast/top tube arrangement ruins the look.
Intrigued, I'm conscious that there seems to be more drivetrain parts that will need replacing...
But if anyone can convince me it's Kalle.
Would like to see Mr Porters thoughts as well 😀
Intrigued, I’m conscious that there seems to be more drivetrain parts that will need replacing…
No more than any of the current idler set ups. The ‘mech’ is proprietary, but that’s well out of harms way.
It's not the Nicolai look that I mind. I'd love another Geometron.
It just looks like a hideously complicated solution to an infrequent problem. I know regular derailleurs have a lot of critics but they've been refined to perfection and personally I have no complaints anymore. You'd have to really despise them to buy into this.
If I was going down the unconventional drivetrain route I'd choose a Pinion every time. I could even get one from the same brand and it would much cleaner than this.
Pinions are far from perfect (drag, engagement, shifter) This is a much closer to a derailleur set up, but with fewer issues.
If I was going down the unconventional drivetrain route I’d choose a Pinion every time. I could even get one from the same brand and it would much cleaner than this
I'm not so worried about the "clean" look, it's the "that'll take my leg off" look that concerns me.
This is a much closer to a derailleur set up, but with fewer issues
Isn't the only issue with a Derailleur "I crashed and it broke"?
Pinions are far from perfect (drag, engagement, shifter) This is a much closer to a derailleur set up, but with fewer issues.
But I'm not planning to switch, just saying that if I had to choose something else I'd go for a gearbox before this. I know the drawbacks of a Pinion and I'm sticking with Eagle anyway.
sharkattack
It’s not the Nicolai look that I mind. I’d love another Geometron.
It just looks like a hideously complicated solution to an infrequent problem. I know regular derailleurs have a lot of critics but they’ve been refined to perfection and personally I have no complaints anymore. You’d have to really despise them to buy into this.
If you did really despise derailleurs, then you'd wouldn't have this - it still has a derailleur, just moved about a bit.
– it still has a derailleur, just moved about a bit.
And chopped in half. The functions of chain tension and gear selection are split.
I'm not in the habit of smashing mechs all that often despite the bike media telling me for decades now that they're flimsy little things that I should be breaking on a weekly basis but in essence, the simplicity of rotating a modified mech further around and protecting it by the swingarm is such a simple idea. Unfortunately the need for additional pulleys and the potential maintenance etc that comes with it may offset the fact you may smash a mech every now and then but its a pretty cool idea...
tomhoward
And chopped in half. The functions of chain tension and gear selection are split.
Is it actually proprietary, or just a modified shimano?
Unfortunately the need for additional pulleys and the potential maintenance etc that comes with it
‘All’ he’s done is move the lower mech pulley wheel to next to the chainring. No more than any other high pivot/idler setup.
Is it actually proprietary, or just a modified shimano?
I think the way it mounts to the frame are the unique bits.
DaveyBoyWonder
Unfortunately the need for additional pulleys and the potential maintenance etc
The extra pulleys are in a large part relared to it being high pivot though - hard to draw a line between the high pivot and the drive - there's a tensioner pulley replacing the mech cage, other than that, it's sort of a "normal" high pivot
tomhoward
I think the way it mounts to the frame are the unique bits.
You can see it in this pic, hard to tell, looks like an XT but the outer pieces look custom.
Mostly curious as to whether they have gone deep enough into the design to build their own mech.
There a lot of extra metal in that - not going to be light.
Compared to any other high pivot, I don't think there is much extra metal
Isn’t the only issue with a Derailleur “I crashed and it broke”?
Is the truth. I'm not certain going back to designs pre-derailleur represents a massive break through. I admire the work the fella has put into it all, but I'll not be queuing up to buy a bike with it on.
I like the idea and the execution. It's not unlike the Brompton approach, but with the tensioner at the front.
It looks incredibly over-complicated but maybe we’re too conditioned to accepting conventional rear mechs?
I wonder the shifting is more precise with that single moving jockey wheel close to the cassette and no tensioner pulling/swinging about below it?
I’ve seen their tests which show it’s a higher efficiency drivetrain than a high pivot with a normal rear mech.
It's not particularly complicated, but it is considerably more heavily built than a standard derailleur. The spring and damper for chain tension probably weighs 25x as much as the same components from a rear mech.
Whole system is heavier than a conventional setup, ~200g iirc, but still lighter than a gearbox system.
I like it a lot and think it deserves to do really well. I have to admit I'd rather have a cassette in a box a la Honda but I doubt that would be anywhere near this level of efficiency and you'd still need the tensioner.
There's a lot og good engineering gone into it already and it can only improve as it gets more refined. I believe that they're going into full production and whilst the prototypes will obviously have featured some Shimano/SRAM parts for expediency, they're intending to manufacture ad assemble 100% of it themselves or with their suppliers.
I'm not sure this is the most attractive of bikes but I'd love a go on one.
Props to Nicolai for creating this so quickly too, both from the point of view of acknowledging the concept and putting a bike together around it. Even for a company as well sorted as them, it's a big investment, in time if nothing else.
I like the way they've decided to spec Hope kit as an option on their bikes.
Isn’t the only issue with a Derailleur “I crashed and it broke”?
Nope
Wear
Dropped chains
Missed shifts
High maintenance
Noisey
Expenisve to replace wearing parts
Not able to shift when stationary
Rapid wear
This design does not eliminate all of these
Rohloff, alfine or pinion does
I wilĺ never go back to derailliers.
Interesting, I like it - enough to buy one over a G1, maybe not - cost being one factor.
Rohloff, alfine or pinion does
But introduces others. About 20 years ago, bike media were singing the virtues of hub gears like the Rohloff with the caveat that they became lighter and cheaper, neither of which has happened because as above, a normal rear mech just works very well, is light and cheap to replace.
I had an Alfine on a commuter bike and it was one of the worst bike components I've ever used. Gave the whole wheel away free on here about 6 years ago after advertising it as a boat anchor.
What others davyboy?
I have done tens of thousands of miles on igh bikes. It just so much better.
Cheaper and more reliable. Yes chesper over the long term
IHG adds weight to the rear wheel. Not so much of an issue for a touring bike, unbalances and adds unsprung weight to a full sus. Plus drag, not a lot, but it’s there. A nexus hub I had was very vague to shift too
Pinion adds drag, crap engagement, limited shifting under power and gripshift. Fine if you get on with it, (and there are trigger options available, but they’re expensive and have their own issues (one hit, one shift, complicates dropper lever placement and you have no way of knowing what gear you are in)) but I don’t. Fine on a winch and plummet bike, not ideal on a trail bike, IME. Not tried an effigear, so Would be keen to hear about how they go.
The drag of an IGH will be higher than this exploded derailleur. And this has a lower sprung and rotating weight too
How do you get the back wheel out?
De tension the pulley behind the chainring, I presume.
I’m just not breaking derailleurs often enough to justify such an ugly bike
In world occupied by Santa Cruz Mega/Hightowers I don't think that statement really has the impact you thought it would.
In world occupied by Santa Cruz Mega/Hightowers I don’t think that statement really has the impact you thought it would.
I don't know what you're getting at.
Doesn’t the Lal design have a damper mounted in the down tube as well? Added complication
nickc
Doesn’t the Lal design have a damper mounted in the down tube as well? Added complication
Just as a tensioner, the tensioner is removed from the mech, and the middle pulley tensions the chain instead, using a little strut thing not unlike the one that holds up your car boot. Not that complex, really.
“Doesn’t the Lal design have a damper mounted in the down tube as well?”
I believe it’s just a replacement for the friction damper in a clutch mech. Bigger and heavier but apparently works better. And judging by how mechs flail about when you see a huck to flat slo-mo, it’s something that could well be improved!
Hmmm, I'm not sold on the idea...I appreciate the innovation of the design and that Nicola have taken it up, and I'd love to have a go on one, owning it though..? Not sure
I don’t know what you’re getting at.
That High/Megatowers fell out the ugly helicopter, bounced down the ugly mountain hitting every ugly tree on the way and finally landed in the ugly lake where they were used as anchors for ugly boats.
Nicolai's have always had the benefit of being functionally ugly rather than just gopping because the designer had a hangover the size of a small moon.
nickc
Hmmm, I’m not sold on the idea…I appreciate the innovation of the design and that Nicola have taken it up, and I’d love to have a go on one, owning it though..? Not sure
Having owned four Nicolais, I'd be pretty confident it's really well made, I'd have few worries on that score. And I think it's a clever idea, but I'm in that group of people who really doesn't have that much of a problem with derailleurs, last one I broke was one of the exploding zees, which exploded. I do wonder how quiet is is, does the damper and the high pivot go some way to eliminating chain slap.
Yeah me neither, It's just not something that I'd buy a bike because of (not having a derailleur). But I love new stuff that comes out of folk's heads for mountain biking development. It's ace. I mean lots of it is not for me necessarily, but stuff like 1x, Boost, dropper posts, all that has just made such a difference (to me, obviously, you might have different priorities)
However you want to build a bike now, someone somewhere will have made a part that can do it, from belt drive to gearboxes to solutions like this.
It's all cool.
'kin love everything Nicolai do, including/particularly that seat mast layout.
honourablegeorge
I’m in that group of people who really doesn’t have that much of a problem with derailleurs
So, guess who tore his mech clean off this weekend? 🙂
Yeah been following Mick for a while. Very clever chap.