[Closed] Niche? You can't handle the niche!! (Packrafting content)

Looks great!
*looks up weight limits for pack rafts

How quick are those rafts? Just wondering whether it's actualy any quicker than riding to the end of the lake and back up the other side?

The river bit doeas appeal though, although would you not end up with the opposite problem, only riding short distances between rivers that go in the right direction?

now that would make the west highland way a lot more fun (i walked it in 6 days, i do remember keeping my spirits up by pretending to rail corners and holding invisible handle bars, i noticed several bits that could be done by raft too - basically anything but walk, obviously by loch Lomond but further north too).

Looks good

geoffj - you'll be pleased to hear that the rafts come in a variety of sizes. There are even two-man rafts.

tinas - I'm not sure I understand your question about what is quicker. Paddling is pretty slow compared to riding. However, you're not using your imagination enough. Think about cross-country trips where you might be doing a big circuit or a point-to-point over multiple days....

Have a look at a map of NW Scotland and you'll get a feel for what is possible and how making those blue bits part of the "path" could open up a lot of route options.

I am with you on this druidh - too often a bit of water is in the way of a great route.

How heavy are the rafts and kit? How much will that weight spoil the cycling?

YES!
🙂
Where can I get one of those?

fat bike inner tube and some week old energy bar for a paddle is all you need. 😀

Nice write up druidh 😀
I've not seen Jim or Dave yet but they're certainly raving about it.

You'll find all the specifications [url= http://www.alpackaraft.com/ ]here[/url] and [url= http://www.packrafting-store.de/index.php ]here[/url].

As I wrote in the blog, the whole kit list is easily carried backpack style. It could, of course, be attached to the bike instead. You'd have to weigh up the pros and cons of carrying it either way and what sort of luggage capability you bike had. It's the usual debate around how comfortable you feel carrying a small pack and how much you want to weigh down your bike. This would be even more of a consideration on multi-day journeys when tent etc. would have to be carried too. I can also see the potential for "hike-rafting".

We carried a full-sized PFD. Lighter gear is available (at cost) and I'm sure that some will even do without (see the STW preview video). Personally, I think you'd be have to be certifiable to consider going out on a raft without that safety aid.

Ta druidh - Not bad at all weight wise

Remember that you'll need a paddle too - and lightweight costs 🙂

We carried everything on one of these harnesses

[img] [/img]

druidh - Member

However, you're not using your imagination enough.

Well said!

These questions/attitudes always seem to be coming from a point of view that says you only HAVE to use the pack raft so you can get where you are going while you are on the bike. If you are going to do it then surely the rafting element is just as much part of the experience as the riding element. Why would you spend £500+ on the gear and carry it all when you could just pick a different route.
I really don't understand the attitude towards it?? Is it because this is mostly a cycling forum and not an adventuring one??

I'm not questioning the concept of a portable boat to make getting around easier, that idea's been used with Canadian canoes (and european coracles, and the rest of the world) for millennia. I just thought it seemed odd combining it with a bike, which kinda does the same job in making long distances easy, you could probably ride around the lake quicker than the raft could get across.

Packrafting makes sense, say if you were doing C2C, just walk inland until you get to the first river heading to the opposite coast, but then so does riding a bike along the same route?

tinas - have a look at the map - some of these might be 100 yds in a boat for 50 miles by bike and / or there might not be any trails.

Here's a photo of me with all the gear in the backpack/harness. The bulkiest bit of kit is the PFD. I've actually got the raft wrapped up inside it.

[url= http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7241/7309180770_e9f6ac3673_z.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7241/7309180770_e9f6ac3673_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/25104421@N03/7309180770/ ]DSCF1319[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/25104421@N03/ ]dodoumbungo[/url], on Flickr

get a really fat bike and it could act as a raft 🙂

It's this "making sense" part that is exactly my point. Why does it have to "make sense"? Why does spending 3 days riding the C2C make sense when you could get in car and do it in a few hours. It's about the doing it and enjoying it, it's not about getting from A to B. 🙂

I can think of routes that would be improved by a short water crossing

Here's a reservoir we were discussing at the weekend.

[img] [/img]

There are at least 5 tracks converging on it - mostly because the valley would once have been passable and it was then flooded when the dam was built. The shores of the reservoir are now almost impassable - even on foot - due to the rough terrain and heather. However, add a boat into the equation and all of those tracks become valid routes for getting across this part of the country.

I love it. What sort of times did it take to inflate/deflate the boats? I've done rafting before (my step dad holds a raft guide qual. and has a small raft) and also open canoe paddling/racing. Which brings me to Q2. Are they similar to a kayak in the way they paddle?

http://www.angusadventures.com/rowedtrip/boats.html

These are what you want if you want to go a bit further on the water

shedbrewed - inflation with the nylon bag is pretty rapid, in the order of 4-5 minutes. Total "transformation" time is more dictated by your desire to get the load nice and secure and well balanced.

Deflation is pretty quick - there's a nice wide "valve" for the air to escape through.

As regards paddling, I found it to be quite a bit different. On the loch, the raft is pretty difficult to keep in a straight line. Having said that, I had an older model. The newer ones have a more pronounced stern which seems to help. If anything, it was easier once the bike was loaded. On the river, it's just a question of remembering that you are more at the mercy of the flow. Obstacles you might opt to shoot past on a kayak need to be taken a bit more gingerly and things like branches will cause a lot more damage to the raft.

I too can think of all sorts of fun trips to be had via these things.
I need to try one - colleagues in general seem negative about them, but I wonder how much is canoe snobbery....

Eat my pond-weed paddlers

[url] http://www.shuttlebike.com/ [/url]

druidh, thank for the answer. I'm a kack-handed kayak paddler but do fine in an open canoe, hence my question.
It does look rather jolly and a good way to have an interesting trip.

Oh and IanMunro, you look very lovely in those boots my dear...

Great blog post Druidh, though you did not mention the cost of them! 😀

Their not cheap at £500 so deft need to get good use out of them.
I went for the budget option dingy for £25 off ebay

Deft not going anywhere crazy with it incase i snag and rip it but it does has two inflation hoops + base.
The pump is useless so mailed Alpacaraft for a inflation bag, cheap at $15 and uses the same standard valve, but they said postage more than bag cost and they do not do paypal 😥 UK dealer needed!
so waiting on a Kite pump, which can go in my frame bag.

Paddle looks naff but at £25 for the kit + £15 for the floatation vest i can have a play in our Bays here at high tides and decide if shelling out the money for the real deal is worth it. Will be out for a play in next few days...
least my bikes float if i need to abandon ship 😆
Will take the Go Pro 🙂

coastkid... http://www.packrafting-store.de/Extras/Alpacka-Raft-Inflation-Bag::153.html

Great blog post and great company at the weekend. I love the comment about "making sense" the nail on the head and all that.
When you start thinking less about riding your bike in the traditional sense and having an adventure by bike a packraft works.
Oh and I'm not saying you can't pin it and shred it and jump it and drop it far far because you can...... Just a little differently

Andy

Andy

Could you please weigh a complete system (Yak, paddle, inflator & PFD)?

Yep would you like nice paddle or not? And would you like me to include the paragon pack?
Oh talking of PFD's google Baltic softshell buoyancy aid. Gillet or hooded jacket?
Andy

OK - what we were lugging. Cheap paddle and the pack too.

http://www.mailspeedmarine.com/buoyancy-aid/baltic/soft-shell-flotation-jacket.bhtml

Automatic [b]reaming[/b] requires 10grams CO2 cylinder

Just back from a 9 day bikepackraft trip in the North West highlands... great trip, my biggest crossing so far 14 km from Plockton to Toscaig on the Applecross peninsula! Some vid + pics etc soon.

As some of you know, I have been packrafting for a couple of years now. It's great, but there is a lot to learn, everything about boats and rivers, lochs, currents, winds, loads of things to consider for keeping things safe.

I'd be interested in how the cheep dingies compare to the expensive Alpacka boats. I have to say I love my Alpacka, but it is a lot of money to commit if you are only going to use it occasionally. They are quite bombproof though. If the cheep boats are safe enough for simple short crossings and mild river floats, and it gets more people into the bikerafting, that is only a good thing.

If anyone in the Edinburgh area is interested, I'd be happy to give you a shot in the Alpacka. Maybe we could organise a get together down at the Musselburgh lagoon one evening?

nikk - I'm already looking forward to your trip report. One question right away though - do you usually travel alone? That's one aspect that worries me and, as no one else I know has as much free time as me, night limit the use I would get of a raft.

druidh - very sensible question. I do these trips alone because no one else I know has a packraft or the time and cash to commit to it. Staying safe is really important to me, as things can go very very badly wrong in seconds on the water. I bought a McMurdo Fast Find 210 personal location beacon for my trip last year, I wouldn't have done it without it. More money to spend unfortunately, but considering you could be close to dead in 30 mins immersed in a cold Scottish loch, I'd consider it essential. Of course, the plan is to never need to use it. It's not like mountain biking where if you get a puncture, you can stop and sort it out in your own time!

Also, I use the raft on rivers, but only with others. I hooked up with the Edinburgh Kayak Club, and they do loads of trips a years, with different skill levels. The packraft does well and can run with kayaks on rivers no problem. Getting into problems certainly on fast flowing water and big rapids, is not something to mess with at all, you need experienced people there to help right away if a problem happens. I don't have to spell out the consequences of getting snagged or pinned underwater. I haven't bikerafted on a river yet, I'd imagine grade 1 / 2 river floats would be good fun with all the kit, but I don't think rapids of higher grades would be much fun with a bike on the front.

Great thread, I really fancy giving this a go sometime.

Interesting to see you picked up on the Orrin res druidh, that's a loop I've had in my sights for this summer.
I can leave my house (Beauly) and meander up the singletrack roads to pick up the track to Orrin from the path which ends past farley (NH 450 466) (This part I've done before)

Then I'd hikeabike clockwise round the west end of the loch and along the north shore to pick up the path over to scatwell then an easy road spin back to Muir of Ord and back to Beauly on more singletrack road.

Packrafting across the loch would be great as the hike round the loch looks horrible even on a map, marshy with loads of burn crossings.

*wanders over to backcountrybiking site*

Would the beacon really make much difference if you are in cold water? would rescue get to you in time?

My thought would be like climbing mountains or cycling - if you are on your own make sure your safety margins are high

bedmaker - any chat I've seen about the shores of Loch Orrin has commented on how rough it is for walking, let alone taking a bike.

TandemJeremy - Member
Would the beacon really make much difference if you are in cold water? would rescue get to you in time?

Ah

If you were immersed, the beacon would help a lot I think. No guarantee, but considering it sends your GPS coordinates directly to search and rescue, plus a homing beacon, your chances of being plucked out the water alive are reasonable, at least in the warmer months.

A lot of it depends on the water temp, your body makeup, what you are wearing etc. Nevertheless, I am usually quite wary of being further offshore than I think I could swim. I have got into swimming since last year and am taking weekly lessons plus swimming another twice a week, every week, and am really enjoying that as something in it's own right, as well as a skill to fall back on should I get in difficulty.

Still, the main thing is to avoid having to be rescued in the first place. As Jeremy says, keeping safely margins high is key. For me, that means lots of practice in much bigger water than I would be going solo / bikerafting in. For example, surfing in 4 foot plus waves, running bigger grade 3 and poss 4 rapids, and testing full self rescue (full dummy kit on the boat, turn upside down, release kit on line, right boat, climb in, pull in and repack kit).

The PLB would work fine for being blown offshore, stranded etc. Not situations I want to find myself in though.

Nikk
I would be interested in your thoughts And experiences with this releasing kit to right the boat and then repacking.

It's one of the scariest things we think about and have practiced every which way we Could think of to rescue ourselves. With a buddy it's all fine. On your own your potentially in serious trouble.

I totally agree with your comment on good decision making and route choices that is the thing that'll keep you safe and sound.
Andy

Hi backcountrybiking. Self rescue should be fairly easy on a packraft. If you end up upside down, you fall out the boat, and are then left swimming beside it. Spin the boat so you are at one of the ends, then twist it to upright it. Then go to the side, and pill yourself in in the same way you pull yourself out the side of a swimming pool.

Now, with a load on the front, it is different. You need to release the load first, then right the boat. This means you need to pack the load in a certain way, using certain things.

First thing is to attach the bike frame to the boat with a 'Packtach' system https://www.alpackaraft.com/index.cfm/store.catalog?CategoryID=52&ProductID=111 (this looks different to the one I have, I presume it works in a similar way).

For flat water, I tie the paddle to the release cord for the Packtach. This means that a) I retain the paddle in a spill, and b) I can find and easily pull the release cord.

Once the frame is secured using this system, all other bits get laid on / secured to the frame.

The important bit if you want to recover your stuff in a spill is to then have a second line attached to the boat, then to each item in packing order (frame, wheels, packs) with some slack between items. When you release the load, this line holds it all under the boat, and stops it sinking to the depths. When everything is dangling on the line, you can easily right the boat, get in, and haul everything back on, one piece at a time.

I use additional compression straps to hold the wheels to the frame when packing the boat. I think these would have to be removed / cut off in case of a spill / self rescue, as it makes it too hard to pull stuff in if there is too much of it.

I use an old knacked bike to practice this routine, and dry bags filled with old clothes / plastic bottles of water etc to simulate a load.

Hi Nikk

That sounds interesting I would love to see it some time. If your ever in the Aviemore area it would be good to meet up and swap ideas.

What length of cord is used to tether the gear? (iis it tied to one or more of the tie downs?
Doesn't the weight of the gear still pull the boat back over ? ( even though it's not on the boat it's still hanging beneath the boat)

Cheers
Andy