[Closed] New trail bike: The options narrow but still no clue.

If it weren't for the travel issue, I'd have said take the fork out to 150 and get the Bird AM9.

Recently demo'd the Stage 4 and really liked it. The BB didn't feel that low in truth and the geometry was bang on, wasn't overly impressed impressed by the suspension, it was OK but nothing to write home about. Even so it was so much fun to ride, it (along with a few other 29ers I rode) made me think that if 29ers can be that fun, agile and playful why wouldn't you have them over 27.5 wheels given the additional benefits of 29ers? The only thing that really puts me off the Stage 4 is lack of a bottle cage mount, but other wise it ticked an awful lot of boxes.

Orbea Occam frame? 120 rear/130 front.

https://www.orbea.com/gb-en/bicycles/mountain/occam-tr

How about the old FlareMax- frames come up now and again. It's got more conservative geo, but still all the Cotic plus points.

I'd also consider a Whyte T129 frame only ('17 is boost). 120mm rear, but certainly feels like more than that. Great all rounder.

There's an 'old' FlareMax in the classifieds 😉 But I think you wanted a large? Anyway having only ridden one of those in your list of choices, obviously I'm going to recommend it. The 'old' version just feels right in terms of how it rides. I've not had chance to ride a new one yet, but mine was a classic case of 'rider not getting anywhere near limits of bike'.

If you do find a FM in your size, 130mm at the front is perfect.  On 29s I ran MM/Hans Damf combo and they worked everywhere.

My mate has a stage 5 and it's a great bike. If I wasn't actively considering selling a child to buy a robotbike, a 4 would be on the list. Another mate has the Hightower which he bought after riding my (chubby) flare max having decided he wanted to go that way. Again he absolutely loves it and it definitely suits his riding.

Oh and you're right you shouldn't have sold your smuggler 🙂 That's why my flaremax didn't get ridden. I preferred the Mojo3 on Chubbies and the Smuggler on 29s. It's marginal tho, they are all brilliant bikes.

@idiotdogbrain - I haven't totally ruled out the AM9. I can imagine it would be huge fun on the descents, but I spend the vast majority of my rides going up and I can't help thinking something a bit shorter would be less tiring in the long run.

@Clink - Thanks, I've not looked seriously at Orbea, but I know they get great reviews.

@lawman91 - Good to hear the low BB didn't cause you problems on the Stage 4. It's probably only that which puts me off these. Well that and the fact that the new geometry is basically identical to the Smuggler that I sold, which is embarrassing. But I've always got on well with Orange bikes, which probably explains why I wasn't sold on the VPP. I sold a 2013 Five to make way for the new bike and loved that (just think bigger wheels and a longer reach might suit me better). I prefer to have water in the pack, so the bottle doesn't bother me either.

@cokie - An older FlareMax might do the job. Didn't know you could get a T129 as a frame.

@Alex - Yes, it's a large I'm after I'm afraid. Also, I know it's shallow but I wasn't too taken by the colour of the older model. Maybe it looks better in the flesh though. You are probably right about the Smuggler as well, but what's done is done and anyway, it's all part of the fun. Looking forward to hearing how you get on with the Robot.

@roverpig - you didn't like the colour! Heresy!

[url= https://farm1.staticflickr.com/795/39398149730_05da516be7_b.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm1.staticflickr.com/795/39398149730_05da516be7_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/232tPiC ]Cotic FlareMax for Sale- Full bike[/url]

The Champagne colour is really good tho. I didn't like it in the pics, but saw a Solaris Max built up with black components. Then changed my mind.

The Robot project is in its early stages. I'm considering the best way to present it as part of my grand bike buying strategy to the responsible adult in our family 🙂

Anyway not to hijack your post- let me throw in the option of a 2nd Hand Ibis Ripley. Brilliant climber, light, fast and not shabby downhill.. Not sure when they went boost tho.

Carbon Smuggler - you liked the original so a lighter, stiffer one with a tad more travel sounds like a winner to me....

I haven’t totally ruled out the AM9. I can imagine it would be huge fun on the descents, but I spend the vast majority of my rides going up and I can’t help thinking something a bit shorter would be less tiring in the long run.

Watching this thread with interest, I suspect that if the AM9 was a 130mm bike or the Calibre Bossnut was a 29er I'd probably own one or the other.

If you're not keen on the old FlareMax colour why not go for the blood red RocketMax? (i'm assuming the £500 off applies here too? If not wait a few months til the newer one gets released). It bimbles just fine and when you're in the mood to push on, it'll do that too. Not only is it a great bike you'll be able to tell everyone you ride the same bike as me 😀

Carbon Smuggler – you liked the original so a lighter, stiffer one with a tad more travel sounds like a winner to me….

Well, I can't have liked it that much given that I sold it 🙂

Actually I have been trying to think honestly about why I sold it. Part of it may have been a preference for the feel of the single pivot. I went back to riding my older Five. But I suspect a lot was down to not being able to ride it properly. I struggled to weight the front enough to make it work. Since selling it I've had a couple of days of skills coaching, which has resulted in me changing my basic position on the bike and I'm now riding the front wheel much more.

I'm not too keen on the fantastic plastic for a bike to be honest. I do have a carbon fatbike and it does make it a bit easier to carry, but I think I chop and change too much to want to sink that much cash into a frame.

@Euro - I did seriously consider the (discounted) RocketMax (in green though) for a while. Still not totally ruled it out, but as with the AM9, I can't help thinking that shorter travel will suit me better over a long day out.

Fair enough. I know what you mean about the low BB on the Smuggler too...

I changed from an older Smuggler to an Orbea Rallon - bigger bike, more travel etc so not really a direct comparison but I'm happy so far.

Orange Stage 5 worth a look - an updated, better version of the original 5 from what I hear.

That new Carbon Smuggler looks fantastic. Shame they didn't increase the rear tyre clearance tho. A 2.3 will go but it's not great in mud.

Rover, your money, your choice etc but i can't see 10mm extra travel making any significant difference over a days riding. And in the unlikely event it did, i'd console myself with the fact it was £500 off 😛

One upside of more travel is you can adjust the geometry and feel more by varying the shock sag and spacers.

Yes, I guess just because you have the travel doesn't mean you have to use it all.

I'm trying to remember what it was that put me off buying the discounted RocketMax. I think it's the fact that the frame is a bit heavier than the FlareMax, which is hardly a lightweight. Not that I'm too bothered by weight, but no point dragging more around if I'm never going to need the extra strength.

It sounds like you need to get some test rides in to see what you actually enjoy. Make sure you test ride on terrain as similar as possible to what you ride.

I had it in my mind I was going to buy an Airdrop Edit but in riding it back to back with a Bird Aeris 145 I just chuckled a lot more on the Aeris. I rode both on fairly easy trail centres which makes up a chunk of my riding - but both handle much tougher terrain really well too.

transition sentinel

I might try to arrange some demo rides while I try to make my mind up, but just because they are fun and it fills the time really. My track record with demo rides is terrible. After last time, when I spent months testing loads of options and still bought the wrong one, I swore that next time I'd just buy something I liked the look of and learn to ride it.

Hats off to anybody who can be objective on a demo ride, but I'm far too strongly influenced by my own preconceptions of the bike, the attitude of the person doing the demo, the conditions on the day (trails, weather, company or not). Even the colour of the test bike! That's before we even get into suspension setup, tyres and whether all the contact points are right where I'd want them. Then we get to the main problem, which is that the bike that feels best to me on a demo is usually just the one that feels most like the bike I've already got. I don't know whether something long and slack (like the FlareMax) would really suit me, but I do know that it would probably take me months before I really understood all the strengths and weaknesses. I guess if I tested it and it felt "normal", I'd know not to bother, which is something 🙂

Pretty sure Roverpig doesn't need a Sentinel, based on his previous postings.

I just built up a 2017 Smuggler with a 140mm pike and -1deg headset and I have been absolutely amazed with how well it rides and how capable and FUN it is.

http://unduro.co.uk/mtb/first-impressions-transition-smuggler/

TBH I got it as a cheaper alternative to the new FlareMAX, as I was starting to crumble WRT one of those. But this is so good that I expect to be happy with it as my trail bike for a long time.

Oh great, another reminder that I probably shouldn't have sold my Smuggler 🙁

Bike looks great @chakaping. Well assuming you've sorted that dropper cable that is 🙂  Hope you have lots of fun on it. I think, with the short rear end, it would feel a fair bit different to the FlareMax, but I guess Alex is the best person to comment on that as he's owned both (albeit the older FlareMax).

Well as you can tell from my review I'm very much in the honeymoon period, but I just did two rides on it in the Tweed Valley - Glentress on and off-piste and it was even more impressive once I'd got the rebound settings right.

The rear end is 436mm so more "mid-length" than short, though the new ones are 430mm (a backward step IMO).

I've ridden both a medium and large older FlareMax and found them less playful, slightly more stable and possibly better pedaling. Both the Cotic and Tranny are in the top five bikes I've ridden TBH.

I’ve ridden both a medium and large older FlareMax and found them less playful, slightly more stable and possibly better pedaling. Both the Cotic and Tranny are in the top five bikes I’ve ridden TBH.

I’d agree with that. I was surprised how good the FlareMax was at BPW and Antur.  I only bought the smuggler as I’d wanted one for ages and a frame came up for sale. The day before the smuggler was built up, I took the FlareMax around the Forest on 29er wheels. At the end of which I couldn’t work out why I’d bought another bike.

They are very different considering they look similar (dimensions, geometry). I’d be happy with either but I don’t need both. The other thing is while there’s this perception sometimes steel is heavy, the Smuggler is a heavier frame.

I’ve ridden both a medium and large older FlareMax and found them less playful, slightly more stable and possibly better pedaling

I guess that would all fit with the longer chainstays.

The playfull/stable thing is one that I don't think I'd ever be able to make my mind up on and probably just want a bit more of whichever I have less of at the time 🙂 My fatbike is the epitome of stable. Really planted and gives huge amounts of confidence, but I get frustrated that it's hard to move about. My old 26" Five on the other hand was playful enough that I could easily loop out if I got carried away, but wasn't nearly as stable when I really wanted it to be.

I do think weight is one of the least interesting parameters of a bike and only gets so much prominence because it is so easy to measure and to feel in a car park. Other than lifting the bike over fences or the odd bit of hike-a-bike it's almost irrelevant (within limits). I've certainly had heavier bikes that climbed better than lighter ones. I'm not sure what my Smuggler weighed. I probably weighed it when I first built it, then never bothered again. It certainly never felt heavy, but I dare say it was. Mind you, most of my PRs on climbs are held by the 35lb fully rigid steel fatbike, which I replaced because it was too heavy 😮

I am kind of in a similar position. I have done a lot of fat biking this winter and have a 2009 Five in the garage as my main bike.

Realizing I would like to refresh the forks and have a dropper I know my old five with it’s straight steerer and 27.2 post isn’t ideal.

My quandry is to build my bits into a 2011-2013 five which fixes the immediate problem and will ride the same as the bike I still enjoy after the last nine years of riding.  Much like yourself

Other option is to look at a Four that will cost considerably more but is good value at the deal I can get.   (Not counting flying to the UK to get it)

Similar geometry to the five in terms of angles and length but lighter newer and shinier. Unsure of the future of 27.5 and don’t want to be caught out after only nine years on my outdated five.

Sticking with Orange as I live in the US and like to fly the Union Jack when possible.

The 2011-13 Five is a bit different to the 2009 (I've had both) and a decent upgrade in my opinion. The new Four is lovely, but as you've spotted the geometry is really just a copy of the 11-13 Five. Should climb a bit better (stiffer) but obviously a lot more expensive. I'm looking at the Stage 4 which, with 29er wheels should at least be a bit different to my '13 Five. I did love that bike though. More of an all-rounder than the current Five and always fun.

Been looking at some very similar bikes (frames) myself. Smuggler, Stage Four, FlareMAX, all 2018 models.

Had a look at some Transitions today and they seem sorted but nothing really to grab me. Had a go on a Stage five instead of a Stage Four, loved it, reckon a Stage Four would be fantastically fast and lively feeling, but, and its a ridiculous big BUT - no bottle bosses! I genuinely think I would have ordered on today had that not been the case. The Cotic I love the idea of, loved my old Bfe, but I'm concerned it might feel a bit industrial, chunky, and maybe *too* long!?

and maybe *too* long!?

Try a smaller (shorter) size then?

Starting to think bike buying is getting a bit like dress buying…

"I'm a large/10 but this brand's large/10 is too long/tight, but I couldn't possible try a medium/12… I'm not a medium/12."

For ages now, people have been sizing up to get reach, and living with less standover… now the option to size down for a shorter bike is becoming a real option… but the psychology of that is a bit weird… that should in time change I suppose…

(and I apologise for the analogy… thinking about it, women tend to take a few sizes of an item into the changing room to try… they're wise to fit being variable and only taking the size descriptions as a guide… if anything it's men who get more fixated on buying something with a consistent sIze name/number on the label)

Seen a lot of posts about bottle bosses recently, is that the new thing?   What happened to packs?

i took a bottle on a fat bike ride today and for the first time since about 1994 (Ringle on Alpinestars almega) put it in a cage on the bike.  It got covered in mud and tasted horrible. Unlikely to use a bottle cage again for the next 24 years.

Four/stage 4 still top of the list then.

(also in the interest of internet pedantry my 2009 Five has the same geometry as the 2013 and the Reynolds tubing, just not a tapered headset or fat seat tube)

I think one answer might be on the front page (didn’t notice it mentioned yet) ...........

https://singletrackworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/it-doesnt-get-much-more-rare-than-this-steel-full-suspension-bike-from-swarf-cycles/

@snotrag Interesting that you tested a Stage 5 and loved it, but would buy the Stage 4. Are they really so similar? It is hard to find anybody who has a negative word to say about the way either of them ride though.

I've never put a bottle on a mountain bike and have no interest in doing so, but each to their own.

@kelvin I see what you are saying, but if the manufacturer (after testing) thinks the large works better with 30mm longer reach, who am I to say that they are wrong? Also stack heights are getting very low and I like high bars, so I'd need comedy spacers on a medium.

@ivantate You are quite right about the Five, my mistake. It was the one with the straight top tube that I had. So I think that would be a 2006 not a 2009. My how time flies 🙂

@genesiscore502011 That Swarf is lovely. Not sure I've got the patience to wait until the summer though.

“ I see what you are saying, but if the manufacturer (after testing) thinks the large works better with 30mm longer reach, who am I to say that they are wrong? Also stack heights are getting very low and I like high bars, so I’d need comedy spacers on a medium.”

30mm longer reach for who though?

Why is height the right way to size a MTB? Leg length (and crank choice) determines saddle height when pedalling - that bit’s easy. But what determines the correct reach and perceived top tube length? Is it hip joint to shoulder distance? It certainly isn’t full height because the neck, head and legs have little or no influence. Does it depend on the hip hinge angle that best suits your anatomy to generate pump power? Does it depend on arm length? Stem length? Bar width? Fork length?

I have a test ride booked with Cotic, to try the new BFe (and maybe the Solaris). I’m 5’11 (179cm to be precise) with 34” legs and a 6’2” arm span. I’ll try all three sizes of BFe but I’m expecting to find the small the best fit for me, my riding style and my trails.

I've got a large orange segment for sale.

Sounds like that's what you need- a stage 4 but with a higher bb 😉

<span style="text-decoration: underline;"> https://m.pinkbike.com/buysell/2334787/</span>

@tall_martin Thanks. I've looked at the Segment. Even had a demo on one, but it wasn't quite right. The shorter chainstays on the Stage 4 should improve things though. Just a pity about that BB height. I'd probably keep my Pike at 130 though, which would help a bit. Although possibly invalidate the warranty, which would be annoying.

The fact that nobody has snapped that frame up (at that price) is a sobering reminder that whatever I go for I need to plan on keeping for a while as the only Orange that seems to sell easily is the Five.

When I started this thread I had pretty much ruled out the Stage 4. The geometry is basically identical to my Smuggler, just with a lower BB. Since the low BB in the Smuggler was one of the few things that annoyed me, getting something the same, but lower, seems daft. But I do think they look great (shallow) and nobody whose ridden one seems to have a bad word to say about the ride. It would be a ten hour round trip to demo one, so I don't think I'd bother with that, but I guess it's back on the list.

I ordered a Stage Four last night after getting to the point where I think I was over-analyzing things. I'll be fitting 170mm cranks to try add a little bit of mitigation to the low BB.

 ordered a Stage Four last night after getting to the point where I think I was over-analyzing things

Quite right, that’s my domain 🙂 Looking forward to hearing how you get on with it. I may follow you in a week or two. Just got some more over-analyzing to do first.

I had a similar dilema the other day. I was looking for a tin of beans and after considerable soul searching i finally decided ASDA had what i was looking for. Alas it wasn't as simple as i'd hoped. They had several tins (and multi-packs!!!) to choose from. After spending several hours carefully examinating the calorific vaule, ingredients, water, sugar and fat values i narrowed my choice down to two - Heinz and the more niche Branston (im a bit of a niche whore). I'm not a snob though, but the "own brand" didn't appeal to me in the slightest. I've had Heinz before, many times in fact. I like the taste and especially like the look of the tin and the easy opening, in-built can opener. The Branstons i've also had before and although i can't really tell the difference over the Heinz once i've heated them up and mixed them with cheese, egg (runny natch), waffles etc, they do have 1% more water content and a slightly lower energy content (3kj). And of course i'd need to open the tin myself (don't get me started on the plethora of can opening tools - i'm still undecided and have been using a rock for the last few years until i can come to a definitive conclusion on which instrument to buy). Despite the store being open 24/7 the staff security eventually asked me to leave on the grounds that i was wasting their time. Idiots!

Anyway, in the end i couldn't decide which to go for so just got some peas and scurried off home. They were lovely by the way 😀

🙂

I also ordered a stage four a couple of weeks back and it’s currently in the process of being built, hoping to give it a good shakedown at the weekend. No reviews out there at all but lots of seemingly glowing real world reviews.

Great. Let us know how you get on with it please.

weighed my xl stage 4 frame today before building it and it came in at 6.14lb with shock, lighter than i expected.

A quick bump in case anybody has ridden the Stage 4 or FlareMax in the last week or so and cares to chip in.

I noticed a blog online about the new FlareMax. Lots of pictures of it in the box and stuff about the build. Even a picture of it on the trails from a month ago, but nothing about how it rides. I guess either he crashed it or he hates it.