[Closed] New SantaCruz Chameleon 29'' & 650b+; 142mm single speed, but 148mm geared. Argh

I see where they are coming from though, no need for boost spacing with a singlespeed rear hub which will already have the potential to build a stronger wheel than a regular hub.

Thats assuming we all agree that moving the flange out by 3mm on either side of the hub results in such a massive change in wheel strength

Many people, including about half my riding group, run gears for summer and SS for winter. They don't ride either exclusively. There isn't anything wrong with 142, and as they are getting the clearance with 142, why even bother with 148? Is it to appease the fashionisters who believe the hyperbole of 1000% increased stiffness from that extra 6mm?

Also, as it's available frame only many riders will be using existing parts, most likely 142mm, meaning they need a new rear wheel to run gears. That's why I'm annoyed. I've got a nice Pro4 build on 135/142 that I can't use.

Yeah when I said I can see where they're coming from what I really I meant was 148 is pretty daft but 148 for singlespeed would be royally taking the piss.

Edit - ignore me please 🙁

Argh, it gets worse! Different drop outs for the different wheelsizes...

Santa Cruz developed a modular Swappable Dropout system for the back of the Chameleon frame. These bolt-on dropouts are available in four different versions. There are 27.5+ and 29in dropouts, and each version is available in geared (148x12mm Boost) and singlespeed (142x12mm) versions.

So a potential 4 dropouts and 4 wheels I need to purchase.. instead of 2 dropouts and 2 wheels. Other manufacturers have managed just fine to combine 2 wheel sizes into the 1 dropout, Stanton & Cotic, yet the mighty SC have failed.

Nobody said owning a Santa Cruz was gonna be cheap!

Nothing to stop you running the boost version singlespeed with spacers, is there?

I don't see the problem, I run a separate wheel for singlespeed on my 29er anyway, so I'd still have 2 wheels. Do you use the same wheel and swap the cassette with spacers?

Isn't all this rather academic.

The truth of the matter is that riding a Chameleon for more than an hour will result in you feeling like Mr Big has had you in the showers

Pretty sure you can adjust the chainstay length with either set of drop outs.

Just add a bunch of cassete spacers and cog.

Yeah there is a mech hanger sitting there all unused but still...

Cool, theyve made a Kona Honzo , with expensive dropouts 😉

For me the new Chameleon was looking quite promising until I saw that the XL frame has a 19.3" seat tube. As I [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/dear-bike-designers ]mentioned[/url] earlier in the week, sub 20" seat tubes on XL frames are not good for taller riders, even in these days of long seatposts.

kimbers - Member
Cool, theyve made a Kona Honzo[s] , with expensive dropouts [/s]

The truth of the matter is that riding a Chameleon for more than an hour will result in you feeling like Mr Big has had you in the showers

Quote of the week!

What's the word on price? It's 750 dollars frame only so I'm fearing £750

Eddie, sounds about right. They need to up the price to recover the tooling costs for those 4 dropouts..

What's the word on price? It's 750 dollars frame only so I'm fearing £750

Ah once you're paying the Santa Cruz tax a buying spare wheel won't make a difference! 😈

( just throwing stones from my VW taxed glass house....)

So a potential 4 dropouts and 4 wheels I need to purchase..

As above it looks like the 'geared' dropouts are adjustable, and in any case would you really be likely to want to run all four combinations?

Santa Cruz's UK web site lists the frame only price as £549, as does the STW article that's available from the sidebar on the right.

What's the word on price? It's 750 dollars frame only so I'm fearing £750

£549 according to an update to the article.

Update! Thank you. Version I scoured was price free.

they're very similar to my 2013 dropouts. as someone said, choose your hub, live with the the hanger. hardly the end of the world.
the frame only on mine was 600, so they've actually come down in price. 8)

Cool, theyve made a Kona Honzo , with expensive dropouts

except they've fitted adjustable dropouts to a frame that's made from today's materials, rather than one better suited to anchoring a cruise liner. 😛

except they've fitted adjustable dropouts to a frame that's made from today's materials, rather than one better suited to anchoring a cruise liner.

Carbon or Ti?

There's no good reason not to make a 142 geared dropout for that.

cokie - Member

Other manufacturers have managed just fine to combine 2 wheel sizes into the 1 dropout, Stanton & Cotic, yet the mighty SC have failed.

SC do offer exactly what other brands do- there's nothing stopping you from fitting the "wrong" wheel size into a particular dropout. That's basically the only option you get with frames that don't offer varying geometry after all.

It's 2 different compromises. If there's no adjustable geometry, either the 29er or b+ or both settings aren't optimal (unless you believe that by pure coincidence, the different sized tyres both arrive at the same perfect frame shape, and bollocks to [i]that[/i]) I'd sooner have replacable dropouts, as far as I'm concerned choice is better.

they're very similar to my 2013 dropouts. as someone said, choose your hub, live with the the hanger. hardly the end of the world.

So choose the 142 and only ever run singlespeed? because that is the point of this thread, that the 142mm dropouts have been made, and for both wheel sizes, but they dont have a derailleur hanger.

£549 is a keen price for SC, i remember years back (perhaps 2006-2008) there was nothing I wanted more than a chameleon frame in a funky colour with a 'long travel' fork.. they were £500 back then.

I have vague recollections of paying £400 for my Mk 1 Chameleon (currently gathering dust in the garage). Interesting that $750 translates into £550 for the frame but the USD price for the completes is 1:1 in GBP.

Olive with purple decals = madness

Ugly seat tube brace

Head tube is too short.

Epic fail

If there's space to run SS as 142, then they could have kept it for geared too. Why the two standards!

I'm assuming because if you run 142 (non-boost) with a 3" tyre and gears, the chain will rub on the tyre. That's what Boost is for innit?

Del - Member

Cool, theyve made a Kona Honzo , with expensive dropouts
except they've fitted adjustable dropouts to a frame that's made from today's materials, rather than one better suited to anchoring a cruise liner.

do you mean the carbon, aluminium or titanium honzos?

http://www.konaworld.com/platform_honzo.cfm

still its nice that santa cruz are catching up, theyll be there in a few years 😉

shandcycles - Member

I'm assuming because if you run 142 (non-boost) with a 3" tyre and gears, the chain will rub on the tyre.

Do you mean with dual ring?

I know outs subjective as well as unimportant but Christ, not much of a looker is it?

The colour probably doesn't help mind you.

Colour sucks. What happened to offering two colour options like the rest of their frames. Otherwise I like it!

Do you mean with dual ring?

Well a dual ring makes it pretty bad. If we assume the outside of a 3" tyre is 38mm from the frame centreline, the inner ring on a double (M8000 XT in this example) sits about 43mm from the centreline. That gives you 5mm for a chain and some mud! A single chainring sits about 48mm out so giving you closer to 10mm clearance. This also assumes the chain is running parallel to the frame centreline. Which it won't be. It'll hit the tyre.

do you mean the carbon, aluminium or titanium honzos?

http://www.konaworld.com/platform_honzo.cfm

still its nice that santa cruz are catching up, theyll be there in a few years

do you have a link to an ally honzo that will take a 2.4 or larger tyre and has adjustable dropouts? otherwise i don't think we're comparing apples to apples. i kept looking at the honzo, wishing they'd make one i would want, but they just didn't. is the ti even available? probably still wouldn't fit a large tyre even if it was....
what does the steel honzo frame weigh? like 7lbs or something? ok then... 😆

shandcycles - Member

Well a dual ring makes it pretty bad. If we assume the outside of a 3" tyre is 38mm from the frame centreline, the inner ring on a double (M8000 XT in this example) sits about 43mm from the centreline. That gives you 5mm for a chain and some mud! A single chainring sits about 48mm out so giving you closer to 10mm clearance. This also assumes the chain is running parallel to the frame centreline. Which it won't be. It'll hit the tyre.

OK, I'm still not sure from your answer if you're talking only about multiple chainrings- it reads like you're saying that single ring, non-boost and 3 inch doesn't work, though? Been there, done that, it was fine.

(this is a wee bit off the topic, because of course it's not all about plus- this bike could accomodate 142 and 29er easily, and frankly should)

@Shand- How does Mr Stooge manage just fine with 135QR!?
I've run the Mk2 Stooge with 1x11 M8000 with 40mm internal width rims and true 3.0'' rubber- no issue. Equally my Zealous Division ran the same setup but with a 35mm rim and 2.8'' rubber with 142 spacing.

So, SC there is a logical reason to make 142mm hangers, and that is for exisititng users. As I said, many people buying frame only will be moving from an older bike which is bound to be 142mm or 135mm (often upgradable to 142). SC are so close- all they have to do is ad an OPTION of a 142 mech hanger, rather than forcing 148 on me if I want gears.

do you have a link to an ally honzo that will take a 2.4 or larger tyre and has adjustable dropouts?

you mean like this?

http://www.konaworld.com/wozo.cfm

[img] [/img]

fair enough its a fatbike but ....

http://www.konaworld.com/big_honzo_dr.cfm

no adjustable dropouts, but I have some on my unit and they were fun to play with but now are never touched

That looks great, where can you buy the frame...? 😆

Sato, [url= http://www.joe-bike.com/product/kona-big-honzo-dl-frame-275655-1.htm ]HERE[/url] (although it's in the USA..)

Most Kona stuff can be bought frame only via the US but not usually until late in the year

is the ti even available? probably still wouldn't fit a large tyre even if it was....
what does the steel honzo frame weigh? like 7lbs or something? ok then...

ti in stock frame only several shops in teh uk and takes up to 3 inch at the rear claimed (tho 2.8 in reality)

http://cog.konaworld.com/ti-tuesday-visas-ti-honzo/

theyve been selling the ally one for 2 years and before that the same geo as the Taro....,

are you sure you looked into this ? 😉

quite. are you sure you've looked at my requirements? 😉
less than £shitloads GBP ( by some margin! ), sliding/adjustable dropouts ( would even have considered EBB, but not really keen ) for SS use and to allow gears if i want them, less than 5lb frame weight, will take 27.5+ and 29 ( pref at 2.5 on the 29, 27.5+ really needs to be 3.0 ).
so i'm afraid the taro, the wo/wozo, the honzo crabron and ti, are all out for one or many reasons. i mean, you can keep saying one of them fits, but that doesn't make it true. 😉
now, if you'd said SC have copied salsa's timberjack, i'd have let you have it, but fine bike though it is, the honzo in any of it's incarnations fails to meet my specific requirements, which is ok! 😀

OK, I'm still not sure from your answer if you're talking only about multiple chainrings- it reads like you're saying that single ring, non-boost and 3 inch doesn't work, though? Been there, done that, it was fine.

I'm just saying that if the chainline is what it's supposed to be then it's going to be close. Especially with short chainstays. Single ring makes it better but Boost makes it more betterer.

@Shand- How does Mr Stooge manage just fine with 135QR!?

No Idea. The 135mm QR is exactly the same as 142mm in this context. There's no difference. I don't have any skin in this game. I'm just saying that if you're designing a bike and you ca squeak an extra few mm clearance by going to Boost then it makes sense.

I can't think of a reason not to get this frame over the Shan GT. No press fit BB, a little cheaper, a little lighter, I like the colour (unlike the Solaris, which makes me sad). I am 6' 4" so will need an XL.

It's for a brand new 29er build, no recycling of bits, any reason I shouldn't?

Only thing I can think of is the restriction to 120mm forks but I'm not exactly hardcore so think 120mm will be enough. Currently on an XL 26" Soul with 100mm forks.

Only thing I can think of is the restriction to 120mm forks but I'm not exactly hardcore so think 120mm will be enough. Currently on an XL 26" Soul with 100mm forks.

from the SC website

Fork Compatibility 120mm-140mm

@wiggles I assumed as with most dual 27.5/29 frames (including the Shan GT) that the longer forks were only valid for the 27.5. I thought I had read that in one of the reviews but can't find it now.

I can't think of a reason not to get this frame over the Shan GT.

The Shan is painted like a 1980s sports car, the Santa Cruz is a mingin olive colour 8)

Yeah, I do love that Rothmans colour scheme. Choice paralysis is a terrible thing.

Santa cruz geo charts and build kits are based on 120 fork with either.

The only real issue with the Shan gt is the sizing it comes up very short in the TT and reach unless you do run it at 120 then it starts to come more inline with modern geometry! I recon you might struggle Jim unless you like a shorter bike of cause.