Innovation dosnt have to mean inventing a new 635B wheel size or some sort of linkage fork. Innovation could be something like improvements to construction that start to shape what you can achieve with the material and design youve chosen.
Look at what GT have done with the new DH bike, back to Alu and lighter for it. Really detailed butting profiles, hollow parts such as dropouts, everything as neat and tidy as it can be.
Then look at Orange, forged shock mount (still looks like a brick, just a bit chiseled), longer front shock mount so thinner guage downtube (but still made of plate, no butting done still?), shonky looking gussets on swingarm (im sure they could have been integrated somehow).
I know it will probably ride great, but as a person who likes looking at details on bikes i just think it looks poor, you see more neat details and innovation on a £500 trek these days. Sure some might say 'it dosnt need it' but then why bother with a new bike, just trot out the 1999 version with a slacker headangle.
still unsure how it costs as much as a Nicolai though ! ? !
It doesen't matter, apparantly.
You should just shut up and accept the price because:
That's what the market will bear.
Guy Martin rides one.
It's built by quaint sweary Northerners who have pictures of naked ladies on the wall of the workshop.
It's unpatriotic not to.
Are you sort of povvo communist or something? - Perhaps you should take up darts instead?
🙂
I for one am not criticising Orange as a business, as someone who lives about 5 mile from their factory, i hope they are here forever but as bike innovators, they haven't offered anything for a long time.
You live 5 miles away, and you're oblivious to their innovations? I have friends that live up your way that used to ride with some of the Orange boys regularly, and they are/were always testing out new prototypes! I've seen dozens of them myself over the years...
Innovations don't always make it into production, but being a small company that makes all (their ally full sus) bikes in house, then can very rapidly prototype and test new "innovations" to see if there is mileage in taking it to market.
Besides, the companies that reinvent their suspension platform (or the wheel size!) every year get lambasted on here! I'm still not an Orange 5 man, but I can understand why they're popular and what the appeal is to the demographic that buy them.
Innovation dosnt have to mean inventing a new 635B wheel size or some sort of linkage fork. Innovation could be something like improvements to construction that start to shape what you can achieve with the material and design youve chosen.
You get me 🙂 Exactly my point. Britain produces some great engineering, I'd love to see it more often in the UK bike industry.
I'd love to see it more often in the UK bike industry
In some ways we do, look at the smaller builders and they put out some good stuff, i.e. Cotic exploring what you can do with steel (even if not everyone likes the results), hope trying to go for integrated cassettes, Charge doing 3D printing of Titanium etc.
But its small fry really, should be much more innovation throughout all levels of the bike industry really, not just high high end stuff.
Innovations don't always make it into production, but being a small company that makes all (their ally full sus) bikes in house, then can very rapidly prototype and test new "innovations" to see if there is mileage in taking it to market.
New Geo each week isnt innovation.
I wish orange would do something about their dropouts primarily, they are still the same as they were back in '99. Must be scope for a bit of FE to look at ways to skim some weight off.
Also, they should really sort out the cable routing, would be easy to mold a cable stop into the dropout so cable came straight out the back rather than being kicked out at an angle and rubbing on the edge.
Same for the front.. "new oval hole!!!" WOW! so why didnt they just add a cable stop to the new shock mount forging while they were redoing that? would be much neater.
Maybe the Santa Cruz comment would hold weight if they were still using a single pivot. They don't, and it doesn't.
If carbon is so 80s, why aren't the innovative orange doing it?
Ah, what would an Orange Five post be without the haters dropping in and expressing their thoughts 🙄
Nor really bothered about the 5, but calling these wheels 27.5 is getting on my tits.
Ah, what would an Orange Five post be without the [s]haters[/s] fan boys dropping in and expressing their thoughts
FTFY
I own one who really cares what others think
Yes it is simplistic, Yes it is ugly but boy does it ride pretty
Is the issue single pivot or looks?
zippykona - MemberIs the issue single pivot or looks?
Neither for me - don't care about the looks and prefer a simple design.
It's the price that I can't cope with:
Cannondale used to make the Prophet in the USA, export it all the way to the UK and sell the complete bike for less than the price of a 5 frame.
Orange fanboy expressing my thoughts 😀 :
My first orange bike was a EV06 which felt "special", I thought I was just lucky, there will be better frames out there and sold it. I then had a GT I-drive, a Cotic Soul, a Carbon 456 and eventually an Orange 5. It couldn't be just luck that both the Orange 5 and the EV06 gave me that special feeling. I mean all the other bikes have their good points but none of them gave me that special feeling.
It's not something that make the bike easier to ride, they just for some reason push me to go faster and jump more. I found both the Soul and the I-Drive easier to ride but both boring compared to the Orange.
Saying that, I don't think I can ever justify the price of the frames new. The frames are good but not £1500/£350 good. Both mine are second hand. I would want to Demo and see why orange went for the 650B though.
Fairly recent Dirt feature listed two Orange single pivots in a 'Top 3' of their all-time favourite and most effective suspension systems. Some might argue innovation's overrated. Make of it what you will. Just saying.
With the 5, 5-650b and 5-29er and the gyro I am going to be doing quite a few demo rides to work out which one is right for me.
I like the look of Oranges, they sort of remind a little of land rover defenders, very utilitarian looks, but great at what they do.
They are more expensive than other bikes I am looking at, but then again sometimes you buy things not just because of the job they do, but how they look/ make you feel when you use them. I could have an epiphone les Paul that would sound great through my little terror amp, but instead I bought a Gibson because at the end of the day, when I am playing badly to myself, the Gibson puts a smile on my face!
At least when your all bitching about Orange, Apple gets a break.
Bike looks good, looking at the pics there seem to be loads of changes, shame the Pro spec seems to come SLX brakes.
Congrats on your new job Sim.
Your bike still looks better sis X
the Gibson puts a smile on my face!
^ Private lol
So is this going to be compatible with 650b and 26 inch wheels? I know they're not massively different but erm yeah....
Cannondale used to make the Prophet in the USA, export it all the way to the UK and sell the complete bike for less than the price of a 5 frame.
'Used to' being the key words.
Orange have an established business model and established manufacturing processes. The 'innovation' seen by the big players is often due to their manufacturing partners in Taiwan introducing new processes. The onus is on Orange to keep making money to keep their staff employed and any investors recompensed. Innovation is only worth doing if it brings a return. Personally I think this is quite a brave step for Orange.
still unsure how it costs as much as a Nicolai though ! ? !
Handmade in small-ish quantities in the EU, I'd be more surprised if they were different!
Their stuff is much more expensive than competitors, and I can't afford to buy from them new as I'm still it college, but hey, if you can't afford it, don't buy one and stop whining. No one seems to complain about Hope, and they're pretty expensive.
However the fact that you'd be supporting a British company that employs British workers, rather than some hardly manned production line out in Taiwan has got to be worth a few bob.
It's also worth pointing out that the current five is a round about the same price as an alloy Bronson (£200 more I think). I know which I'd rather.
@Phil40: were we separated at birth? Couldn't have put it better myself, except my guitar is a Fylde acoustic, so I don't have to worry about the amp wrecking the sound. My fingers do that well enough on their own!
It looks like the 26" Five is being dropped so people better get hoarding.
If you're after a 26" I'm afraid you're out of luck, you'll have to go Alpine from now on.
From here, slide 17:
http://dirt.mpora.com/events/downhill/uci-world-cup/saturday-pit-randoms-gallery-fort-william-world-cup-2013.html?utm_source=t.co&utm_medium=twitterfeed
This is what a new Five should be, in my opinion. An evolution, not a revolution. A few tweaks to produce a bike that rides that little bit better, keeps up with prevailing fashions but still stays true to the original. Whether those tweaks are to angles, pivot position or wheel size is all the same. If they are going to innovate it should be with new models, not by radically changing a bike that people like as it is.
I like the fact that they didn't change the name. The Five29 is a different bike to the Five, but increasing wheel size by 4% is just evolution.
I hope they drop the 26" version. Not that I've got anything against 26" bikes, but they should have the courage of their convictions. If they think a Five rides better with 650B wheels they that's what they should spec it with.
So can you stick the new swing arm on a 2012 5?
This is probably a really really daft question to most of you who know about bikes but I've never seem 27.5 inner tubes so do you just go 26" and pump em right up, or tubeless ?
Or are there 27.5 inner tubes ?
Oh yeah and I think the Crush is going to the same wheel size as well ?
People still use tubes? 😛 😆simmy - Member
This is probably a really really daft question to most of you who know about bikes but I've never seem 27.5 inner tubes so do you just go 26" and pump em right up, or tubeless ?Or are there 27.5 inner tubes ?
yep you can get some 27.5 tubes and some tyres though not in huge numbers...
Tried a very nice 650 frame out it felt good but that was more down to it being a good bike rather than the wheels.
I really like my Orange but I think it'd take some fairly extensive brain injuries before I'd hand over the RRP for one...
rickon - Member
What I'm saying is Orange are a great UK company, but lack innovation. They've created a very well selling product that is great for the UK, but.... that very success has stifled innovation and creativity....
They'll go broke like that UK car company that never changed its design. Morgan I think it was called.
Oh... 🙂 🙂
Fair point though.
it will be interesting to see how many
big wheels = pointless
orange = awesome
convert one way or the other 🙂
[quoteDyson is an inventor though so a bad comparison with a bike maker
Actually he just takes existing industrial technologies an applys them to domestic products.
Clever- yes, inovator- yes, inventor- no.
Another bike with no bottle cage mounts..
Maybe the Santa Cruz comment would hold weight if they were still using a single pivot
Sure about that?
26" is going to be replaced by 650b so all Orange are doing is changing with the market they have no control over, nowt wrong with that.
I have a 2012 Five and looking at the 650 version I'm very interested. I've yet to ride a 650 but having had some fun on 29" I have this sneaky feeling that it'll be very good for trail riding; with the right frame of course 😉 If the new version rides just a little better with some of the benefits of bigger wheels and maintains the essence of what I love about mine then brilliant.
Innovation is for new, not existing products unless it can be added without changing the essence of the original. Look what Coke did back in the 70s, nearly ruined themselves... Not sure what sort of innovation you guys expect a bike company to come up with when tinkering with an already successful product?
I think riverpig summed up perfectly;
This is what a new Five should be, in my opinion. An evolution, not a revolution. A few tweaks to produce a bike that rides that little bit better, keeps up with prevailing fashions but still stays true to the original. Whether those tweaks are to angles, pivot position or wheel size is all the same. If they are going to innovate it should be with new models, not by radically changing a bike that people like as it is.
Oh, and please stop banging on about cost. Yes it's expensive compared to the competition but (like any other company) I expect Orange will be using profit from successful models balance other, less popular models and make a success of their brand. I happily paid for mine and I couldn't care a hoot if Orange are making a bit more than other brands do, I bought it for the ride not the value of its parts... 🙄
Any word on other new Orange Frames? Was this a one off announcement?
Can someone please explain to me why the more xc oriented Five, doesn't have a swingarm similar to the more gravity orientated Alpine?
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To me it looks like the swing arm on the Five could be made much lighter than it is.
I think it'll be much more composed around Swinleys more demanding trails with those bigger wheels.
It's quite nice!
Although i'm a bit confused by the 1.5" headtube - what's the point? It might tempt me but i'd much prefer a tapered headtube.
I can't think of any readily available 140mm forks, especially 650b that would be in a 1.5" steerer, surely they would be far better off tapering the steerer than making the majority of riders run reducers for 1 or both ends of the headtube.
Or am I being stoopid?
I can't think of any readily available 140mm forks, especially 650b that would be in a 1.5" steerer, surely they would be far better off tapering the steerer than making the majority of riders run reducers for 1 or both ends of the headtube.
Having a tapered steerer adds lots of weight. It is much lighter to make an 1.5" steerer and have a tapered, or 1.1/8 headset, then a tapered steerer, especially for monocoque frames.
The "advantages" in terms of tracking a negligible too, especially when compared to the weight of the thing, and on a trail bike.
The only reason a tapered headtube was on the old five, is because of market demand, same with the kinked toptube - that added a whole load of unnecessary weight, to give a lower standover height (which IMO isn't even useful), basically because people think it looks better, which, to be fair, it does.
An aluminum bike won the first round of the EWS and DH World Cup. It isn't the material, it's the application. Most people complaining about a lack of innovation on this frame wouldn't have a clue how to improve it and would most probably ruin it with their ideas. 5mm difference in main pivot location can turn a ripper into a shitter.
Had a look at the new five today at fort bill and could barely notice the difference until it was pointed out part by part.
The 332 was missing from their stand so I assume that's going 27.5
The sc carbon nomad was missing as well so I assume that's getting all fashionable too
5mm difference in main pivot location can turn a ripper into a shitter.
Ha, yeah. But your average UK MTBer wouldnt notice that, all they care about is the brand/material/paint job etc.
PrinceJohn - MemberCan someone please explain to me why the more xc oriented Five, doesn't have a swingarm similar to the more gravity orientated Alpine?
You realise the Alpine swingarm is heavier? It's got a hole in it but that actually adds material (and makes it stiffer and stronger as it's effectively triangulated beams rather than one big beam)
