[Closed] New Heckler. You'll never guess what's happened to the wheels.

wow...the 2013 heckler ...26" with new geo..was just a few months on the market now...not even a year..
http://www.santacruzbikes.co.uk/heckler

^hopefully this'll mean there's a few bargains to be had on used hecklers when everyone panics and switches to 650b 🙂 I've always wanted a Heckler since riding my Bullit, seems pretty much the same but a bit lighter and shorter travel.

Interesting video from Bikemag "Why do people care so much about this change?"

I'll tell you why people care Mr Graney. They care because if like me they have had a heckler for the past 6 years and fancy (or are forced into) to change then they could simply buy a new frame to go with all their expensive components. But now if you want to buy new you are going to have to shell out about £750 on new forks and a load more on rims and tyres.

Now as my wife will attest to I am not averse to spending money on my bike and if I think It will suit my riding and genuinely offer a performance benefit then I will happily shell out (In fact i've chosen to do just that and eagerly await the arrival of my XX1 drive train). I do however resent the implication that I am a "hater" for questioning the necessity of this 'new' standard, whilst in the same breath being told that the performance benefits are marginal. This just strikes me as the fairly arrogant attitude of a man who has had the luxury of free bikes and not spending his own hard earned money on them recently. If there is a clear difference then fair enough but you have just said "we built them both and they were both great"

27.5 and 29ers: A sure sign of a bike industry that has run out of fresh ideas to sell new bikes.

Why can't they put they're efforts into developing something properly useful and innovative like an affordable gearbox unit?

Why can't they put they're efforts into developing something properly useful and innovative like an affordable gearbox unit?

My thoughts exactly. 27.5 and 29ers are money for old rope. It doesn't bring anything to the sport that helps it evolve.

Yes there may be a benefit for racing, but only while we have a mixture of wheel sizes (if there is any actual, quantifiable benefit). Once all racers are on the same wheel size then there will be no advantage whatsoever. And that goes for racing your mates on your weekend outings.

People moan about FS reducing people skills, 29ers will have the same effect.

I'll tell you why people care Mr Graney. They care because if like me they have had a heckler for the past 6 years and fancy (or are forced into) to change then they could simply buy a new frame to go with all their expensive components.

What about the people with older short travel bikes, should SC not go back to producing the original 4" heckler as 'people still have the bits' that wont fit the long travel bolt through versions? Should all manufacturers be forced to continue making models to old standards or designs to ensure existing customers have something to buy in the future?

There are plenty of bikes out there for you to buy, just because a brand has decided to discontinue a model (which is what they have effectively done) dont get all upset.

if they only decided to discontinue a model...
why is Mr Graney so upset then...?

[i]Deore on a Heckers???[/i]

Heckler is an entry level bike as far as SC is concerned

[i]I'd assume a 650b Chammy is on the way which would be very tempting.

Edit: ... and carbon too please Mr Royksopp.[/i]

I wouldn't hold your breath. when I asked about a carbon Cham I was told that they see the Cham as (like the Heckler) an entry to other bikes, and they wouldn't do a carbon version as they see the Cham as all about the "value"

26" for value bikes, and long travel gravity bikes

650b for intermediate FS 120mm-160mm

29" for XC hardtail and FS sub 120mm

Is how it will be from now on

I was told that they see the Cham as (like the Heckler) an entry to other bikes, and they wouldn't do a carbon version as they see the Cham as all about the "value"

Really? I think they've got this wrong. The Cham has been an awesome hardtail for many years. To see it as entry to the 'suspension' bikes is an oversite IMO.

A carbon Cham would be brilliant and perhaps a [s]little[/s] lot more forgiving. 🙂

NickC - wrt the Deore cranks, I clarified it was more the triple I took issue with on their AM machine. I would have seen the 2x10 SLX as a perfect match for a Heckler. ISCG tabs and a triple????

Buggered if I'm changing any of my bikes to a different wheel size just cos some 650b fanboi has been scweaming "I want! I want!" down the phone at a bike manufacturer..

I'm perfectly happy with 26 inch wheels.

[i]I'm perfectly happy with 26 inch wheels[/i]

cool, you are not the market. It's like saying I'm perfectly happy with my tape player in my car....It's fine, you can play what you want, music comes out. no problem, but the market doesn't care about you, the market wants new, cool, exciting, edge...bluetooth iphone link knows your playlists....

elliot. Cham is their cheapest frame, it's the 924cs of the Santa Cruz line up. A carbon Cham would be awesome, but despite the many emails I sent (not kidding, it became a bit of a running joke) they aint gonna do one. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the last version of Cham.

dantsw, I think they want the heckler to be seen as a bit "do it all" is my take on it, and most folk are still on triples (despite what you read here)

new, cool, exciting, edge

Please explain how 27.5 and 29 inch wheels are any of the above?

If you need a explanation ask any bike manufacturer how 26" wheel bike sales are going.

Not really answered the question, has it?
Tape player vs iPhone Bluetooth isn't a fair example. There are quantifiable advantages with the Bluetooth link, which there aren't with 650b. This has been pushed on us by America who lap up marketing stuffs. Ask any manufacturer for UK 650b vs 26 sales.

If you need a explanation ask any bike manufacturer how 26" wheel bike sales are going.

As stated above, the sales of the new wheels sizes are being driven by the industry, not the consumers. The consumers are just lapping up the hype.

we are a teeny tiny part of the world wide bike sales market, and if you don't want a 650b or 29er than it's cool, but there are people both looking for the next upgrade and new to the sport who are buying these bikes "just because", and given the way the bikes are the new cool thing to do, they are spending wodges of cash, and they ain't buying 26" wheeled bikes.

[i]The consumers are just lapping up the hype[/i]

consumers ask for bikes and people are buying the bikes the manufacturers are making, T'was ever so...

Not only are they buying them, they are clamouring for them. Have you been to a bike shop recently? try finding a 26" bike amongst all the shiny 29ers.

Not only are they buying them, they are clamouring for them. Have you been to a bike shop recently? try finding a 26" bike amongst all the shiny 29ers.

I'm really not sure you're getting this. People aren't clamouring for 650b or 29er bikes. It's all they're being offered. It's not consumer driven. It's been driven by manufacturers.

Not only are they buying them, they are clamouring for them. Have you been to a bike shop recently? try finding a 26" bike amongst all the shiny 29ers.

Which came first: The bike industry selling them, or consumers wanting to buy them?

I will guarantee you it wasn't the latter. Consumers only want them because they are being told they are the latest thing.

I was in a bike shop a month or so ago, when I bought my new one: Very few big-wheeled bikes to be seen.

Edit: Oops Wrecker got there first.

wrecker I wouldn't be too sure. I think there's a vocal "nowt wrong with 26"**, but here's a real life example: My neighbour is an occasional biker, he's just bought a 29er anthem, mostly as that's what he wanted after much research, drove 100 miles to Bristol to get one...

Consumers are really going for these bikes, sorry if it doesn't fit your view, but its true.

Mikey74, in leisure Lakes in Daventry, you'd be hard pushed to get a handful of 26" wheeled bikes amongst the 100 or so they've got on the shop floor

Edit ** and I'm one of them, I will ride my Cham into the ground, and I'm already stockpiling bits for my next 26" bike, but I can see the writing on the wall.

Mikey74, in leisure Lakes in Daventry, you'd be hard pushed to get a handful of 26" wheeled bikes amongst the 100 or so they've got on the shop floor

I think you've inadvertently proved the point wrecker and I am trying to make: Larger wheeled bikes are the new thing the industry is pushing. There wasn't a market there before this latest explosion of hype.

I am sure your mate has done his research, but where has he got his information from? Magazines? Bike shops? People who have already bought them? All parties interested in making sure larger wheeled bikes are seen as the latest and greatest evolution of the bicycle.

mikey74, it really doesn't matter, it's chicken and egg. MTB bike sales have exploded and people are buying 29ers, and they'll buy 650b as well.

It might be that it's all manufacturer led, but it doesn't matter, 26" wheels aren't going to die, but they just won't be centre stage any more, they'll just be part of a larger wheel choice. Give it 5-10 years most people won't be on 26" bikes

What a strange discussion, of course this change is manufacture led. Just look at pretty much any industry and you'll see new products every year. Allways better (whether it's demonstratable or not) or with some new feature that makes last years look old. Cars, TVs, AV, coffee machines, phones the list is, well, everything.

Sorry guys, but anyone moaning about the cost of upgrading due to ancillary items well you're just not their target market. They want to sell as many bikes as possible and whilst I'm not in the industry my guess is that frame only sales make for a small margin of sales against complete bikes. They really don't care about you as sooner or later you'll have to make the change anyway. Change is always painful for some.

Just get out and ride.

i love these wheel size discussions, anyone would think people had a gun held to their head.
I remember when front suspension arrived, same response, then rear, its just the evolution of the mtb. calm down people. I've ridden mtb's since 1987 and loved it all, rigid, full suss, downhill bikes, now i have a fat bike and just about to order a Heckler 650b, why? simple, it better than a 26" so why not. I've ridden 29 and its much faster but not as agile so 650b seems the natural next choice and can't see any reason to stay with 26 when given the choice when choosing a new bike. if i wasn't changing then I'd stay 26". for now, in fact my fat bike has 26" rims but haha measures 29" so god I have it all. haha.

All the guys on here going on about the industry dictating what we buy its crap, manufacturers have to make what sells, if they make stuff that people don't want they would be madness, most of them have madea few to test the water, if people go for it then make more, if not why the hell would they bother. Simple.

For me it was a matter of trying all the options, i run a shop and didn't want to sell anything that i didn't believe in, so like to try it all first and give an educated review. We stock 26, 650 and 29 and there is a definite swing going on and its rider led, they try each size and make up their own mind. no gun to the head. so far, 29 is winning just. 650 is still rare but will win over a 26 just because it rolls better but keeps the agility of the 26. This is the fact of the matter.
What makes things slightly tricky is the fact most of a business is wheel building so even more spokes and rims to stock AAAAARH! Progress i guess. 😆

anyone would think people had a gun held to their head.

just about to order a Heckler 650b, why? simple, it better than a 26" so why not.

For me it was a matter of trying all the options, i run a shop and didn't want to sell anything that i didn't believe in, so like to try it all first and give an educated review. We stock 26, 650 and 29 and there is a definite swing going on and its rider led, they try each size and make up their own mind. no gun to the head. so far, 29 is winning just. 650 is still rare but will win over a 26 just because it rolls better but keeps the agility of the 26. This is the fact of the matter.

The gun to the head is shops not stocking 26er gear, the gun to the head is manufacturers not making a particular model in the 26er format, the gun to the head is all the manufacturer sponsored media spouting about how 26ers are dead and the only way forward is the bigger wheel sizes. Of course people want to buy this new stuff, because they believe the hype. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

The post above said "just get out and ride": Well the new wheel sizes have put the emphasis firmly back on the gear and not the fun of riding.

oh dear, wish i'd stayed off here now haha.
for the record our shop sells 95% 26" wheels, we build lots, i don't really want to have to stock even more spokes and rims but, our customers are changing when they are looking at new bikes, we mainly stock 26" but once they try alternatives they buy up to now 29 as a matter of choice and to just make a point, most are either first timers or the guys who don't read the mags a lot. The regular long termers are different, they are hanging in there, so for me its customer led, they make the choice having ridden both. simple. I'm the same as i said, i didn't buy any 29ers until i'd try one. it matters to me what i sell and i like to give proper advice and comments not dictate what they should have, Choice is good right now, god theres enough of it, travel, type of bike, blimey its a mind field but for me larger wheels are here to stay just because having ridden it i can see no reason what so ever why it shouldn't become to new 26.
Anyway of to bed now, out on the Fatbike in the morning for a quick blast before lunch. happy chatting. 😉

This isn't about 29ers. It's about 650b. 29ers are sufficiently different to co exist with 26. 650b isn't.

I have no problem with 29ers as I can see the benefits for some types of riding. I can understand that some may want an in between size.( whether this is marketing led, or an evolution). If people like them then fair enough.

Interesting that not so long ago Spesh designed, produced and sold ( in large volumes ) a downhill bike with a 24 inch rear wheel.That's two inches smaller than normal. Only issue seemed to be less of a tyre choice.

I just hope 26 inch stuff doesn't become obsolete.

edit...

This isn't about 29ers. It's about 650b. 29ers are sufficiently different to co exist with 26. 650b isn't.

I can see [ though I am not interested personally] that 29 er si different

650 b is barely any difference tbh and is nothing other than industry led to sel us shit we dont need and we dont want

given the number who are "upgrading" it seems to be working

Hecklers are ace bikes. I am just pleased such simple and effective designs are still so well received.

With regards to the Pinkbike consumer hype that apparently is occuring over larger wheels, it would appear the opposite is also occuring with the gravity ones. People who've invested in high end dh / fr bikes, probably after much saving, only to feel that the industry now is maybe moving towards regarding their bikes as obsolete in this area.

The best manufacturers are giving their customers the option to choose their wheel size for each model rather than forcing the latest scam to recoup their R&D outlay on us.

I say does any of this really matter... Manufacturers have been forcing 26" wheels on us for decades and no one moaned about that. It's really simple as far as i can see. Pick a bike you like and ride it. Care not about what the "industry" is doing. Thats what i do anyhow.

given the number who are "upgrading" it seems to be working

& how pathetic is that...

I say does any of this really matter Pick a bike you like and ride it. Care not about what the "industry" is doing. Thats what i do anyhow.

it does matter because people are concerned that if they have bought (or might be about to buy) the 26" bike they like that in a few short years they wont be able to get decent quality parts or spares to fit it, because the marketeers want us to buy a whole new bike rather than maintain or upgrade the old one, and are doing so by forcing a new incompatible standard on us on spurious claims of performance improvements.

Dabbing my toe into this debate a little bit, I think this thread, and countless others, really proves is that the UK market seems different to the continent and the US.

Perhaps it's because we're a more 'eyes wide open' culture, or maybe just that we're Luddites.

IMO the 650b just isn't vastly different enough for us all to think "now that's a great idea' and I think that's the point most people struggle with.

*now backs out*

IMO the 650b just isn't vastly different enough for us all to think "now that's a great idea' and I think that's the point most people struggle with.

+1

thats it !!

Missed most of this thread as i dont have a Heckler...but then had a glance at it last night anyway.

You'd think it was armageddon for 26 inch wheels from reading threads like this on STW....in a mild panic i went straight over to the CRC website to see if i could still buy tyres for my 26 inch wheels, forks with a narrow 1-1/8 steerer for my cheap steel frame etc etc....to my great relief there was tons of stuff available, essentially it's possible to build a very nice FS or hardtail out of supposedly obsolete standards.

I can relax and go back to ignoring threads like this now, the hysteria and hyperbole surrounding 29ers, 650b etc is just that....and for those of us who update our bikes less frequently than the manufacturers would like there are still loads of good parts, frames, tyres, forks etc for us to continue running our luddite bikes for some time yet, phew!

The best manufacturers are giving their customers the option to choose their wheel size for each model rather than forcing the latest scam to recoup their R&D outlay on us.

A scam is when a vendor tricks a buyer into buying something they think is something else.

There is no scam here.

nickc - Member

MTB bike sales have exploded

Have they though?

nickc - Member

Have you been to a bike shop recently? try finding a 26" bike amongst all the shiny 29ers.

I don't think I've ever been in a bike shop where 29ers were the majority. I imagine my local Specialized dealers will have drunk the kool-aid and swapped over but that's all. And 650s are still a downright oddity. (and kit almost unseen- was in an Alpine today and a feller was trying to buy a 29er tube, "no demand for it mate, the roadie place in town will have some")

Northwind, come south where all the money is. 😆 LL in Dav is a bun fest most weekends, and Evans in Milton Keynes, you cant move for 29ers.

[quote=nickc ]Northwind, come south where all the money is. LL in Dav is a bun fest most weekends, and Evans in Milton Keynes, you cant move for 29ers.

With these offers you are spoiling us!! Daventry & MK the heart of UK Mountain Biking.... There are other things you can't move for in Dav & MK...

🙂

It's always amazed me that LL Daventry is as clearly successful as it very obviously is. Go in on a Saturday, and you literally get crushed in the rush of people buying top end bikes . Odd

MTB mecca, doncha know..? 😆

wrecker - Member
This isn't about 29ers. It's about 650b. 29ers are sufficiently different to co exist with 26. 650b isn't.

Completely agree.

Sadly, 650b/27.1" might end up making both 26" and 29" hard to find in the future 🙁

If SC had discontinued the Heckler, I doubt many people would have batted an eye. Moving it to 650b seems to have upset more people.

Sadly, 650b/27.1" might end up making both 26" and 29" hard to find in the future

-

(nah, on reflection best to stay out of it)

I saw my first 650b bike in the flesh at the weekt when I went to pick up my new frame...a SC Bronson which I've got to say was lovely. But, but, against a 26inch Banshee with chunky tyres there was hardly and difference in overall wheels size. Will it actually role noticeably better than a 26er? I personally doubt it. The difference looks so small that I doubt your average Joe plodding about on it will find it a revelation.

I think the writing could be on the wall for the smallest wheels size if people like Fox stop making higher end products. If the industry pushes it, it could happen sooner than you think because I'm sure that form upgradesaaren't that common these days given how expensive they are. SC seem to be pushing complete builds more and more too, Spesh have all but abandoned offering frames. Will there be enough of a market for Fox and co to offer higher end after market products soon?

Why are you all getting so over excited? I keep hearing about how we won't be able to buy parts for our 26" bikes but how many parts are actually affected?

The general opinion seems to be that you can run some 26" forks with some 650 wheels and vice versa so forks are not a problem.
What are we left with then? Tyres, spokes and rims...... Do you really think Mavic, DT, Maxxis etc are going to stop making 26" gear any time soon?

chestrockwell - Member

What are we left with then? Tyres, spokes and rims

Frames! It's a barrier to change, if you've got 26er forks and wheels you can change 26er frames easily but changing to 650b is much more expensive. So if options of frames reduces, that's obviously not good.

Can you not just stick your 26" wheels and forks on a 650B frame though? I keep hearing that the difference is so small that nobody would notice, so surely the frame will handle just fine with 26" kit.

What frames are we talking about though? Opinion seems to be that anything below top end will live on in 26". Want top end, go custom.

Things change, people get outraged, then everyone forgets and it becomes the norm. It's not that I don't think it's naughty if this really is just an excuse to force us to buy new kit but some of you lot must have far too much time on your hands if 650 makes you so upset.

Back to the original point about frames. I'd point to the limited amount of stuff you'd have to change if you're forced on to a 650 frame. It's rims and spokes really, isn't it? Not perfect but also not the end of the world.

I'll believe this 650 take over when I see it anyway.

The new Fox forks that have the redesigned brace can't run a 650b wheel, so if you had an older frame with newish forks on it, then you may be forced to change. I guess it's jot an issue on older forks.

Persogetting het up I about it but it, but I do think it's annoying. I'll stick with my 26inch wheels for as long as I can or at leasr until I can no longer get good spares for them. My only concern is that this middle sized wheel has gathered pace very quickly.

chestrockwell - Member

Opinion seems to be that anything below top end will live on in 26".

ORLY? So we'll still be able to buy a new 26er Heckler?

roverpig - Member

Can you not just stick your 26" wheels and forks on a 650B frame though?

Would you run a frame with the wrong sized fork or shock in it? Some frames'll be fine run 26er I'm sure but others won't. Why would you accept such a compromise though?

ORLY? So we'll still be able to buy a new 26er Heckler?

I should qualify that by saying 'opinions I've read on here'. I wouldn't really call a Heckler mid range when it costs what it does but get your point.

If you're in the market for a complete Heckler just buy 650 as "it doesn't make any difference". If you want to buy just a frame and then use your old kit buy some new rims and get them built up on your current hubs. Not ideal but not silly money compared to the amount you're dropping on a frame (Heckler).

I'm not a 650 or 29er convert, all my bikes are 26" but I also don't see why some people are getting so over excited tbh. I'm not worried in the slightest about spares for my bikes.

 

If you want to buy just a frame and then use your old kit buy some new rims and get them built up on your current hubs.

Would love to do some double blind tests swapping over the wheels I bet no one could tell tbh that is how much difference it makes NONE

Would you run a frame with the wrong sized fork or shock in it?

It depends if it would make any difference I guess. I keep reading that 650B is just marketing bollox and that the difference between 650B and 26" is so small that you can't really tell. Well, if that's the case then surely you can just run 26" wheels and forks in a frame designed for 650B. Either there is a detectable difference between the two wheel sizes, in which case maybe 650B is better, or there isn't, in which case you can just keep your 26" stuff and stick it on the new frame.

Junkyard + Roverpig, exactly. No need to get so upset, the world will keep turning.

If you don't want a 650 bike, don't buy one. Your 26" bike will be fine.

I'm a happy 29er HT rider and buy that the best wheel for the job is the biggest wheel that can do the job.

If bike designers think a 650b makes a better FS than 26 inch because it brings some 'big wheel benefits', but also a better FS than 29 inch because the frame can be more compact, hence agile, I can see how that could work. I'd certainly like to try one, perhaps I'd buy one - but I'm pretty sure I'll never again buy a 26 inch bike, getting the damn things to go along and up is just too painful.

Bike companies stay in business by making the best bikes they can and pleasing as many customers as they can.

roverpig - Member

I keep reading that 650B is just marketing bollox and that the difference between 650B and 26" is so small that you can't really tell.

To be fair, one place you hear that from is Santa Cruz, currently pushing 650B as hard as it can be pushed.

Personally I say there'll be a handling difference, and it'll be small, so why take on all the infrastructure change for something that at most will be a small benefit, but more likely will be a case of some small benefits and some small drawbacks. If I'm going to spend £2500 to switch bikes (frame + wheels + forks) I'd want something more than small changes...

If I'm going to spend £2500 to switch bikes (frame + wheels + forks) I'd want something more than small changes...

Fair dos, but it's not about you.

Once someone's in the market for a new bike, and doesn't have 26" baggage (like, for instance, me ... and most people buying bikes), they want the best for their money. If it looks like some of those are choosing 650b and it's getting some traction, then manufacturers need to pile in.

I've no idea myself if 650b is 'better', I've never ridden one, but the case for it, for a certain kind of bike and most riders, against both 26 and 29, does seem plausible to me.

Fair dos, but it's not about you.

Thanks for the chuckle 😀

some days old but..
the spokemagazin article in this thread explains it all...

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/what-the-f-the-wheel-decision-isnt-our-choice

mattjg - Member

Fair dos, but it's not about you.

It's not, but I long since grew out of thinking I'm a beautiful and unique snowflake...

Still, if you really want to spend a packet for a tiny difference- and that's difference, not upgrade- then be my guest.

Yeah but if I (or a new customer) bought a 650b now, it costs no more than a new 26 of equivalent spec. It makes no difference to anyone not bringing 26 inch baggage to the deal.

That goes without saying... But that's just another expensive way to get a new bike.

Even then, most current bike owners will still have kit they can't use any more, even if it's just tyres it's still adding to the cost but lots of people transfer parts from old bikes onto new- especially wheels since full-build wheels are so often a spec low point.

crazy that so many people are getting upset that 26er stuff will be obsolete and unavailable by next monday or something. 650b stuff is only *just* making it in to the stores. most bike mfrs are only just sneaking in 1 token 650b model for 2014, and half have only just had a 29er for a year or 2. and afaict everybody's favourite Flow EX Hope Hoop isn't even available (certainly not listed at any of my usual stores).

looks to me more like 650b stuff isn't available, rather than 26er stuff being hard to find.

still have no plans to buy 650b. will wait 5 years and add to the self-fullfilling prophecies. I was in the market for a 26er FS. Now I can wait.

looks to me more like 650b stuff isn't available, rather than 26er stuff being hard to find.