So currently I have a brilliantly capable modern geometry 29er hardtail (Solaris Max), which is great for the majority of my local trails until I start trying to ride the more tech stuff (relatively) fast. I also have my Pitch Pro for this tech stuff, bigger days out and generally riding stuff outside my comfort zone.
The Pitch has been great for the past 12(!) years, but is now creaking at the seams and showing its age in terms of geometry/wheel size/generally outdated standards. The major issue is that as and when things like wheels and forks start to die, there's almost nothing out there to keep it going, and at Boltby the forks appeared to reach that point as there is an intermittent issue with the air spring where occasionally I can slowly compress it through about 75% of the travel even with correct air pressure in. Whilst riding, it generally behaves a lot better, but I can envisage an uneconomical bill when I finally get round to sending them to TF.
Which brings us onto new bike thoughts, which is where I'm in a bit of a quandary. Really enjoyed the whole enduro experience at Boltby, despite being comfortably in the lower reaches, so am likely to have a go at a few more such events. Also, we have 'enduro' lines locally which again are quite fun to tackle, plus big days out to the Lakes. So thoughts turn to a big bike for these type of things to sit alongside the Solaris, but then I have a crisis and think this will leave me horribly over-biked most of the time, and I should rein it in and just go for a more trail-oriented machine.
Please aid my weak-willed mind in decision making, and encourage me either way based on experience of such bikes, for example
Aether 9 vs Aeris 9
Jeht vs Rocket
Thanks, confused of Leeds
Or Bird AM9 as a middle option (as long as you can get one in your size still)?
The Aether is pretty capable and the Aeries 9 noticeably chunkier.
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Thought you wanted big?? 😁
I have an Aether 9 and have ridden the AM9 which is the model in between it and the Aeris 9. You could demo all 3 with Bird.
I don't ride enduro but the Aether 9 handles the lakes fine. An AM9 would be more comfortable for long descents and long days in that terrain, but that riding is the smaller proportion of my riding. If your Solaris is a burly build with a 140mm fork, I'd be thinking whether there's enough of a capability gap between it and an Aether 9.
Solaris is currently running a 130mm Helm, hence thinking big(ger) may be better to avoid potential crossover. Plan is to demo where possible to aid the decision, just trying to narrow it down a bit first!
I think last time I looked Bird were out of ML AM9s, but if it seems to be the sweet spot I'm not averse to getting something second hand.
The Jeht would be a good middle ground to do a bit of light enduro without being too overbiked for trails.
The Bird AM9 is also a good option for this - you could build lighter with a Pike and dt swiss XM481 type wheels or go with a Lyrik / 36 and ex511 type of wheels. The Aether is pretty capable but it does have quite a short rear centre and wouldn’t be top of my list to race enduro. It is a good trail bike though with quite aggro geometry.
I’ve got a Transition Sentinel and that’s on the middle ground between enduro and long travel trail (I really like it), as is the Ibis Ripmo AF. Both could crossover both of your uses I reckon.
Newest Santa Cruz Hightower is also on the capable end of trail / could do a bit of lighter enduro I reckon.
I'm on my second AM9, it is very versatile. I have replaced it with a Aeries9 but I have done so knowing it will probably be less versatile and hopefully a short travel bike will join the collection to compliment.
If you wanted to go SH my AM9 will be available soon, happy to answer any questions obviously.
I don’t think you’d regret a full on Enduro rig, you just might find that you weren’t riding it quite as often and we’re sticking to the Max.
I think that something around the 150/160mm travel with 29inch wheels would probably suit you well. You can still have fun riding enduro trails on it, but it’s also still viable to have fun doing all day epics.
Waves @mesh 👋
I've no experience of an enduro-level bike, and not that much experience of FS, so take my 'advice' with that in mind!
I guess you and I do similar riding and at a similar-ish level.
I've a 150mm/115mm steel trail bike, which I find fine for the riding you describe. I think I'm the limiting factor, so if its too steep, too chunky, its not the bike holding me back, its my head! So, if I don't fancy it, I'll more likely get off and walk! I'm not sure that a 170/160mm of travel would increase my confidence or ability to just 'hit' stuff that I don't much like the look of.
The other thing is that modern bikes are just so much more capable by dint of the improvements in geometry, larger wheels, wider tyres etc since your 26er Pitch Pro.
So, if I were in your shoes, I'd be going 150/160 front, 130/140 rear. Which is Bird AM9 / Cotic Jeht territory.
slightly controversially I'd go for a big bike! I bought a Nukeproof Giga 18 months ago, mostly for a couple of post covid bucket trips (Basque Back Country and Molini). I expected to ride in on big days out, BPW, etc but ended up picking it for all sorts of stuff from night ride blasts to all day XC type epics. It weighs over 35lbs but it's not really noticeable until the last couple of climbs.
I also had a Solaris (now have a BFE so similar) and and 130mm trail bike. The 130mm bike really doesn't get ridden much because I'd rather take the Giga or the HT. It's definitely brought my riding on (and I'm a pretty average mid 50s rider) because it's so capable, and stuff I'd probably walk (same as you in my head) before, I've just thought 'nah be fine' and it has. Also that's transferred to other bikes.
There were some monster deals on Megas/Gigas a while back. Not sure if they're still on. Mine has an EXT shock and it's a great fit for the bike.
I just wish I could have had a yellow one 🙂
I’ve got a Jeht. Used it for local trails, Dartmoor rides, bike park stuff and BPW. It’s more than capable for all that stuff. If you’re coming from an older FS you’ll be amazed how good modern mid travel bikes are over the rough stuff.
Go big.
I'm probably one of the few people you could rely on on the forum to suggest medium travel, but everything you're saying suggests getting long travel.
I thought ( fought?) long and hard about getting a sensible medium trail bike for the kid. Got him a slash in the end; and if my occam was stolen tomorrow I'd be straight out buying a Slash to replace it.
And I'm seriously fond of big 80km + days.
but then I have a crisis and think this will leave me horribly over-biked most of the time
Over biked is mostly a state of mind. I ride (almost exclusively) a 2019 Spesh Enduro, By any standards I'm "over biked". it has 160mm of coil both ends, and by estimation it must be north of 15kg, put it this way; when you drop it onto it's wheels, it doesn't bounce. Thing is I've ridden that bike over everything from the Chilterns to Highland mountain epics and everything in between. It's only really fast when you point it D/H and lots of the time the marker ring around the fork doesn't get past half travel. But, my riding has improved massively because I trust it implicitly to work, and I've gotten faster and the lines I choose have increased in steepness and tech, I go looking for the sort of stuff now that I would only have dreamed of a couple of years back because I know the bike can.
Big bikes are laugh out loud fun, and to me that's worth a few kilos and slower climbing time
Big bikes are fun what you can get away with to be fair.
Riding a trail at Rowberrow on the Mendips (The Chippy) on my Sentinel (160mm lyrik / coil shock) you can pop and play on it and rail the small berms. On my mates SC 5010v3 (130mm pike / air shock) to try and go at the same speed you’re hanging on And it feels like a hardtail in comparison. Lots of roots and odd bits of rock (although it’s not a hugely rocky / tech trail at all - it’s just a fairly natural feeling red) just bash you about at speed on the smaller bike.
Get a 160+ travel bike. Your HT seems pretty good for anything where a big trail/enduro bike isn’t needed.
I never understand why people buy a second bike that has a massive overlap with their existing one. I want my range of bikes to cover XC - DH. But then I accept that we’re all different with varying needs, budgets and tastes.
but most big bikes that descend great also pedal so well nowadays compared to 5-10 years ago.
I went sensible. (Well am just going sensible, picking up my new bike today!)
I had a long hard look at my existing bike - even more outdated than yours, a 26” hard tail. Can’t even get brake pads for it, and I’m riding it lots again so it needs replacing. I looked at how I’d modded the bike, for me it’s been modded to strip out weight, but I wanted a bit more comfort. I ride singletrack. Found a specialized epic EVO comp with a good discount and it sounds like the perfect bike for me. I’ll let you know how I get on!
I have a Jeht. Its amazing and does BPW and Stiniog etc.
But both the Bird and Cotic options are a bit heavy compared to others so you could consider going "bigger" in terms of travel but lighter in terms of base frame weight to give you a bit more zip on the climbs. Modern geo bikes also tend to climb well too.
Go big - I found when I got my Soul it was better than my T130 & I ended up never riding it.
Now I have a Rocket & Soul so the bikes are completely different & it's much easier to decide what to ride.
Some musings in this thread - https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/enduro-trail-bikes-whats-good/
The bikes you've mentioned weren't on my radar so don't know much about them, but I'd personally consider 'big' as 165mm+.
Personally I'd resist going 165+ unless primary use is racing and uplifts. I think 150 - 160mm is the sweet spot, more agressive than a standard trail bike, without being a bruiser that demands being pushed to get the most out of it.
To add a slightly different twist on things -
Go 'quality' not 'quantity'.
Explanation - I've had loads of bikes, I dont tend to keep them more than a couple of years, and like many on here do a variety of riding from XC through to Enduro.
I went through a series of bikes recently that came with the fox DPS - which is one of the go-to's for manufacturers of trail bikes.
My current bike has only 120mm of travel but uses the much bigger, current model Float X Factory - big air can, big reservoir, and big elastomer style bottom out bumper like the DHX etc. This has made a huge difference.
Ditto fork - I've 'stepped down' to a shorter, slimmer Fox 34, but its a Factory Grip 2 damper - and its brilliant.
Previous bikes have had more travel, but typically middle of the range dampers, and the rear shock change from the DPS to the Float X was a massive improvement.
My preference therefore is the lighter/less rowdy frame, with less travel (which would typically get you all the other benefits of a lighter build) but higher quality suspension.
Go big. I'm on a RM Altitude and it's the best bike I've had, I did think it might be too much on flatter stuff, which I don't ride often, but it's as good as the Ripmo it replaced, the frame quality is a level above the Ibis too.
I put it straight in the slackest setting and have yet to try any of the steeper settings but they should make it more versatile and suitable for tamer riding.
On the question of Jeht v Rocket, I've gone from the last gen Rocket to a Jeht running a 150mm fork and I'd say it's better at probably everything with the right tyres on. Faster on 29x2.4" trail tyres, just as capable on rough stuff (if not more) on some beefier "Enduro" tyres. I'd certainly say the Jeht climbs better on techy as well as fireroad climbs, it never feels like more of a slog than it needs to.
If you ramped things up a notch from what I ride (which isn't full-on Enduro speeds or terrain) then the Rocket would probably edge it on those downhill sections.
The difference is I use the Jeht on tamer trail/XC rides too a lot more often, whereas the Rocket I felt like I needed a reason to use it and often went down the route of taking the hardtail instead and just skipping/going slower down some of the harder trail sections rather than pedal it round the 95% of the route where it was a bit overkill to enjoy a short descent.
I am a Southern softy though, so different terrains etc. will alter what you want/need.
Thanks for all the input folks, some interesting points to mull over.
I think as some have stated above, it's going to be such a phase shift from the bike it'll be replacing that getting some demos may be the way forward.
@rockthreegozy if your outgoing AM9 is an ML that could be an option worth considering so I'll keep an eye out!
Ta
Phil
Have pm'd you 😎
Go demo them.
Seriously.
Cotic demo from their base in Chesterfield (not too far) plus have demo days out and about. Bird have a demo centre at Hamsterly, again, not too far.
When I got my Rocket MAX I suspected I might like the Jeht or the regular Rocket more, but tried them all anyway. The Rocket MAX seemed like a lot of bike. When I actually got out on them, the big bike won me over immediately. It had everything the other bikes had, and a bit more, and somehow felt nippier than them too. Hard to pin down, but I just clicked with it. You can't predict that, or go by what other folk on forums say, as we're all individual snowflakes. So go try them for yourself.
Hi @mesh 👋
Can you swing it so you have 2 sets of wheels & tyres that you swap between the bikes depending on use?
I.e. 1 light duty with fast rolling light casing rubber, 1 heavy duty with grippy rubber and tough casing
Makes a massive difference to how the bike feels depending how much pedalling or lumpy descending you plan to do.
That's what I do on my tranny sentinel. Pedals absolutely fine with the xc wheels (just as well as the smuggler I had before it with a lot less travel) but will smash through rocks without a care in the world with heavy duties on.
Do it properly and get a Geometron. 😉😁
I spent 10 years on a giant reign that ended up on 170/170mm coil suspension.
On a 25 mile peaks ride It was awesome on 5 min of technical stuff but heavy and a bit much for most of the other 4 hours.
So I'd second @ta11pau1 and recommend what I ride- geometron, but get a short(er) travel one. I'm on G13 with 160/135mm and love it as a compromise
I've got an AM9 with lyrics. It's a great bike, and can do anything from a bimble to the fort bill WC track. It's most at home on steep techy stuff like Dunkeld.
But, I probably still ride my hardtail more, as it's lighter & more playful. It's overall faster, less tiring & more rewarding on big days out/xc loops.
I test rode an Aether 9 at Laggan recently, and it'd probably be better as an "only bike" as it was lighter & climbs so much better. Not sure how much of that is down to the spec though.
I think that something around the 150/160mm travel with 29inch wheels would probably suit you well. You can still have fun riding enduro trails on it, but it’s also still viable to have fun doing all day epics.
On the basis of recommended what you have, this and a couple of other paras in here describes a Long Travel Occam perfectly. I bought one for the same purpose, to be more enveloping, less intense and less involving that my 100mm travel race bike, a kind of Labrador vs Jack Russell. The Occams tend to ride and climb more like a trail bike, yet have 150mm to play with on the rough stuff. It’s not Enduro, but it’s big, strong and easy to get on with.
I shall be out this evening and there may be some pics in the Weekend photos thread.
For what it's worth I ride a specialized enduro, a 2016 one (160mm travel front and rear) and it's my only bike. I use it for everything, pub run, gravel routes, xc rides, trail rides and local small jump and DH trails. I don't ever really feel over biked as the ride is what you make of it, you just get used to the fact some trails you have to go faster to feel like you're really working it. It's a bit of a tank though especially on the xc rides I do long for less weight and easier climbability.
I'm fancying an eeb at somepoint and I'm toying with the idea of getting rid and either getting a lightweight xc bike or gravel bike to compliment the eeb but I'll be getting something 160/170mm travel on the eeb.
It's a calibration exercise and it sounds like you want what is generally called a 'trail bike' this week...
I reckon you start from a Stumpjumper as it's sort if a benchmark for trail bikes at any given moment, and then decide if more travel or gnarr angles are needed.
Then you decide if SBC is too much of a corporate whore outfit and find the equivalent numbers from whichever alternative niche brand tickles your wallet and away you go, Bird aren't a bad call IMO...
I think the sensible thing to do might be more travel. I swap between a 160mm (singlespeed) hardtail and a 160F/157R (electric) full-sus, which have v v similar geometry (at sag), and find they compliment each other really well.
I run reasonably light tyres on both (Snakeskin/Exo/Grid/Grid Trail) and inserts which keeps them both fairly fast rolling but tough enough to smash* the downhills (*for my level of smashiness).
Seb Stott did a good Pinkbike article on this:
https://m.pinkbike.com/u/seb-stott/blog/short-or-long-travel-which-is-the-best-all-round-mtb.html
I’ve found the problem with fitting lighter tyres to a longer travel bike is that I tend to be going faster downhill and so tend to puncture anyway, even on “gentler” rides.
“I’ve found the problem with fitting lighter tyres to a longer travel bike”
When I say “lighter” I’m not talking XC tyres, but thicker thread (lower TPI) single-ply with extra puncture protection - around 1000g for a 29x2.3
Those tyres with inserts roll so much faster than the almost-downhill dual-plies like DoubleDown or SuperGravity. But if you’re heavier and/or faster than me you may have no choice but to run an even tougher casing.
One idea I've been pondering recently being in a similar boat is to have a longer travel bike but not use all the travel.
I'm torn between a 145 and a 130 rear. As there's no weight penalty, why not have the 145 and run it so I typically only use 130. The advantage is that there's always some in reserve and I gain back some of that bottom bracket height we seem to be losing year on year.
These musings are influenced by a couple of videos by Steve at Vorsprung about how much travel is really needed.
@chiefgrooveguru that's an interesting pinkbike article and it matches my experience also.
I've gone full circle.
Airdrop Edit V1 to Bird Aether 7 and back to Airdrop Edit V4 but this time all the way to longer shock. So I'm now at 170/170 and I can't really say that I've noticed any downsides.
Apart from swapping the Pike for a Lyrik and the CC inline coil for a Kitsuma coil its the same build. I do think having a shock that can be adjusted to suit the days riding helps.
One idea I’ve been pondering recently being in a similar boat is to have a longer travel bike but not use all the travel.
isn’t the problem here that many bikes with more complicated suspension systems require a pretty specific sag setting to get the suspension to work as intended? to get the wheel at the point in the travel where the bike doesn’t bob about, santa cruz have a window of a couple of millimetres.
starling did a video on this idea recently, running your bike firmer to emulate a shorter travel frame.
“isn’t the problem here that many bikes with more complicated suspension systems require a pretty specific sag setting to get the suspension to work as intended?”
Nothing I’ve seen in years is like that. Here’s a recent Santa Cruz:
https://linkagedesign.blogspot.com/2021/09/santa-cruz-bronson-2022.html?m=1
I think you’d miss a bigger bike. I have a capable hardtail that’s used for my riding around home and a V2 Sentinel which is very much my away day bike. As mentioned by a few people, the luxury of an extra xc-ish wheel set is worth the cash. Bike came with DT enduro wheels, 2.5 Assegai and 2.4 DHR2 to which I’ve added inserts. These wheels, 30% sag in the rear and the bike ploughs through anything. Also have a pair of Reserve wheels with Wolfpack tyres that drop 1.25kg. This and a bit of extra pressure in the rear (25% sag) and the bike feels a lot more lively on rolling trails.
So much overlap in bikes these days. Travel doesn’t add weight and unless you are going for a xc race or a downcountry build, components will weight very similar amounts. My mate’s Flare Max weighs pretty much the same as my Sentinel does on its light wheels.