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Nowt to do with the posters and is that a google ad?
No it's a paid for advert
It's gone a bit quiet. I suspect if Maximuscle, your esteemed advertisers, had sent you a tub of their Provite colostrum to review, you would not have started a thread in this tone, commercial suicide.
Milkman - I suggest that you are confusing the owners of the site and the posters on the forum. We have no control of the adverts on the site, the owners of the site have not posted on this thread.
My milkman does potatoes and orange juice AND Christmas Hampers; I think he's got rather more going for him to be honest.
crikey, I'm sure he "does" more than that - I've seen the films
You've not seen my milkman....
milkman - don't confuse a lack of response with any sort of agreement/placation.
Firstly maximuscle advertising, site based or not, has nothing to do with the users of this forum. Secondly, that's not something most people on here would use, regardless of it's pros/cons - I suggest you stop trying to divert attention.
And thirdly, it's evening and people have better things to do than write on here (unless they're still stuck at work....like me... 🙁 )
....must.....stop....posting......
milkman - don't confuse a lack of response with any sort of agreement/placation.
Also, adding more and more youtube clips and athlete recommendations does not constitute peer reviewed scientific evidence.
Nothing new is coming to the table and so everyone is BORED of this thread and you have done little to convince people of the benifits of colostrum, but also more importantly, of [u]YOUR[/u] brand!
I all honesty, I was on your side Milkman, now I am less sure.
(p.s. This is my personal opinion only)
I suspect he's not even a real milkman.
crikey
If your enquiry as to my credentials is genuine, I have a background in microbiology, veterinary pathology and food control. I have been an invited speaker on colostrum at an international biotechnology conference for which proceedings are available and I am a co-author of a paper on another functional food that aids gut barrier maintenance, which has been accepted by the British Journal of Nutrition. I have worked in the dairy industry for ten years and collaborate with the UK's leading independent dairy and functional food researchers.
Milky:
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I pity your partner, life must be a riot!
I'll bite again.
I don't doubt your credentials however:
1. What does background mean. I have a background in bike mechanics but that doesn't make me an expert.
2. I AM a veterinary pathologist and have never heard of you before? And my colleague is a Clinical Microbiologist and hasn't either.
3. You sell colostrum so understandable you are invited to speak about your product. Proceedings don't really cut the mustard in the academic world really do they? I have had stuff in proceeding booklets before but this has not always been taken further to a proper citable article?
4. Just because you have submitted a paper doesn't mean it will be accepted.
5. Being an author on a paper would be expected if you had contributed to it in any significant degree? However a persons contribution is difficult to assess from a reviewers point of view no?
My point is bragging about your credentials to people not "in the know" may sound impressive but I am afraid I am not!
IME the people who shout the most, know the least!
My education was for the food industry not clinical or medical practice and dealt with the physiology and pathology of food animals. As a veterinary pathologist you will know that race horses suffer from gut ulceration when raced or trained hard. They have large body masses relative to their surface area and limited ability to sweat and a fur coat. Just like the Kudu in the Attenborough clip. Hence the rise in core temperature. Running horses for distances greater than would be natural for a flight animal induces this. Another case of heatinduced gut cell apoptosis. Race horses can also die suddenly as a result of endotoxemia at the end of a race or in the stable afterwards. I keep trying to find ways to illustrate this point to you. Would you venture an opinion on horses now it's in your field?
Milkman - teh heat is causing the gut issues not the gut issues causing the heat. So your basic premise is wrong.
You magic stuff no matter what its action cannot and does not cure heatstroke. It treats one symptom of heatstroke perhaps
So, I'm going to die horribly if I [i]don't[/i] consume your product and then ride for a long time and get a bit sweaty?
All types of horses "including race horses suffer from gastric ulceration" - there I corrected it for you 🙄
Another case of heatinduced gut cell apoptosis. Race horses can also die suddenly as a result of endotoxemia at the end of a race or in the stable afterwards.
Oh dear 🙄 you really are cutting and pasting from Wiki arn't you 😯
Have you references for heat induced enterocyte apoptosis in horses cause by exercise then? Oh and I presume you mean that hyperthermia caused by intense exercise in horses causes significant disease? And that horses that die suddenly after exercise is due to enterotoxaemia induced by exercising? Have you a reference for that as well?
No, the consequence of heat stress is gut cell apoptosis. The consequence of gut cell apoptosis is endotoxemia. Endotoxemia is bacterial toxins, digestive enzymes and part digested food fragments entering the portal circulation, overloading the capacity of the mesentreic lymphatic system and the liver to filter out the toxins and their entry into the systemic circulation where thay can induce organ failure. Dr Tony Ashton investigated this and published some ten years ago. He also explored the use of vitamin c to reduce permeability and toxemia, so it's not the first time the topic has been researched.
YOu claimed your potion cured heatstroke. It may treat one symptom of heatstroke. Not the same thing
Endotoxemia is bacterial toxins, digestive enzymes and part digested food fragments entering the portal circulation, overloading the capacity of the mesentreic lymphatic system and the liver to filter out the toxins and their entry into the systemic circulation where thay can induce organ failure. Dr Tony Ashton investigated this and published some ten years ago. He also explored the use of vitamin c to reduce permeability and toxemia, so it's not the first time the topic has been researched.
Absolute rubbish - are you seriously trying to troll me/us - this is garbage!!! Are you really the head of this company or are you infact a Troll as you are very convincing 🙄 You obviously have no biologic science background otherwise you would realise that what you have written is utter utter rubbish!!
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And on that note - I'm out - this truly is a topic I DO NOT WANT to discuss any further with you Milkman!!
You obviously have no biologic science background otherwise you would realise that what you have written is utter utter rubbish!!
According to his [url= http://www.neovite.com/news/article.asp?articleID=20 ]website[/url] he was a manager/owner of a software company, before that a farmhand and has done a course in public health.
A bit more veterinary stuff then and without resorting to insult.
Camels are adapted to high core temperatures of up to 41 celsius without any endotoxemia and without heatstroke. Pretty much any other mammal would die of heatstroke at such a core temperature. Camels secrete heat shock protein in the gut wall to maintain the integrity of the barrier function under these conditions. They also secrete functional proteins in their milk to provide this protection for their young. Your thoughts?
Milkman - I'll try and say this slowly;
Have
you
conducted
any
blind
tests
that
prove
your
product
enhances
an
athletes
performance
?
Not in Camels, Masii worriers, Cows, Deer or T-rex's - just human athletes where there is clinical evidence of a proven positive result of using your product vs a placebo?
My thoughts - you are not addressing basic points. You are arguing against folk ( not me) with afar greater understanding of the biochemistry than you have. You are doing your company a great disservice.
Your potion may help the gut stand this issue with heat and toxins - this means it is [i]a treatment[/i] for one symptom of heatstroke not [i]a cure[/i] for it.
My god, is this still going. I'd have thought you would have the wisdom/dignity to walk away from this one and let it lie.
You really are doing yourself and your product no favours arguing a point that a)you can't really win and b)is of very little relevance to the actual claims your product makes re exercise & endurance.
[i]You really are doing yourself and your product no favours arguing a point that a)you can't really win and b)is of very little relevance to the actual claims your product makes re exercise & endurance.[/i]
This.
You've stumbled into a place where lots of people know lots of things and have very finely tuned bullshit detectors. Your grasp of internet based debate is poor, your grasp of science based debate is even worse, and your attempts at marketing through this medium are dreadful.
Sorry fella, but you've really not done your company and your cause any favours at all.
As I began, our studies are into the immune and digestive health of endurance athletes, not their performance. Users, athletes, coaches and physicians who have observed benefits and good results have been willing to go on the record without reward and I've brought them to you.
In our studies we are also concerned to measure DNA from gut bacteria in blood serum to determine the extent of endotoxemia, I think you'll find this is a standard technique. If foxyrider has a different way of measuring endotoxemia or a simpler explanation of its cause, I'd be very interested
To be fair, proving that something works by double-blind trial is difficult and expensive. For new drugs, thousands of patients may have to be recruited for a trial to be sufficiently powered to give a robust, statistically significant result. The functional foods folk are hardly going to do that as the returns don't justify the outlay.
I wager that these products (holograms, colostrum etc) work for elite athletes because they believe in them and that gives them the edge they think they need. As for me, I'm sticking with my lucky innertubes...
Reduction in heat-induced gastrointestinal hyperpermeability in rats by bovine colostrum and goat milk powders.
Prosser C, Stelwagen K, Cummins R, Guerin P, Gill N, Milne C.
AgResearch Ruakura, 2001 Hamilton, New Zealand. colin.prosser@agresearch.co.nz
Abstract
Male Sprague-Dawley rats were assigned to one of three dietary groups [standard diet (Cont; n = 8), standard diet plus bovine colostrum powder (BColost 1.7 g/kg; n = 8), or goat milk powder (GMilk 1.7 g/kg; n = 8)] to determine the ability of these supplements to reduce gastrointestinal hyperpermeability induced by heat. Raising core body temperature of rats to 41.5 degrees C increased transfer of (51)Cr-EDTA from gut into blood 34-fold relative to the ambient temperature value (P < 0.05) in the Cont group of rats, indicative of increased gastrointestinal permeability. Significantly less (P < 0.01) (51)Cr-EDTA was transferred into the blood of rats in either the BColost (27% of Cont) or GMilk group (10% of Cont) after heating, showing that prior supplementation with either bovine colostrum or goat milk powder significantly reduced the impact of heat stress on gastrointestinal permeability. The changes in the BColost group were not significantly different than those of the GMilk group. The potential mechanism of the protective effect of bovine colostrum and goat milk powders may involve modulation of tight junction permeability, because both powders were able to maintain transepithelial resistance in Madin Darby canine kidney cells challenged with EGTA compared with cells maintained in media only. The results show that bovine colostrum powder can partially alleviate the effects of hyperthermia on gastrointestinal permeability in the intact animal.
So now you're being nasty to rats....
Milkman - Memberheatstroke is the result of gut leakiness when poisons (enterotoxins) enter the bloodstream. enterotoxins can lead to organ failure and heart attack and can trigger autoimmune disorders.
Milkman - MemberHeat leads to gut permeability. Permeability can lead to toxic shock from enterotoxins. Exercise at high aerobic levels leads to a rise in core temperature even at moderate ambient temperatures
You product may be able to treat ( not cure) this "gut permeability" However heatstroke is rather more than gut permeability is it not and your nostrum cannot do anything to remove the root cause - the overheating of the body core. Only cooling down the body can do that.
and a bit more science then
Stress-induced gastrointestinal barrier dysfunction and its inflammatory effects1
G. P. Lambert2
Department of Exercise Science, Creighton University, Omaha, NE 68178
Abstract
The intestinal barrier is formed by enterocyte membranes, tight junctions, secreted mucus, and immunologic factors, such as tissue macrophages. Dysfunction of this barrier can be caused by different types of stress (e.g., physiological, pathological, psychological, pharmacological) and can lead to increased intestinal permeability. Increased permeability to endotoxin, a component of the walls of gram-negative bacteria, causes local or systemic inflammatory reactions, or both. The immune response(s) can then promote more serious conditions. Exertional heat stroke is an example of such a condition. During severe exercise-heat stress, possibly combined with other stresses, reductions in intestinal blood flow, direct thermal damage to the intestinal mucosa, or both, can cause intestinal barrier disruption and endotoxemia. The resulting inflammatory response is believed to be involved in altered thermoregulation and multiple-organ dysfunction. Possible means for preventing or attenuating, or both, many stress-induced intestinal barrier problems include environmental, pharmaceutical, or nutritional approaches, or a combination of these.
INTRODUCTION
Several stresses affect the integrity of the intestinal barrier. Included among these are psychological stress (Soderholm and Perdue, 2001), prolonged strenuous exercise (Pals et al., 1997; Lambert et al., 1999), and heat stress (Lambert et al., 2002; Prosser et al., 2004; Singleton and Wischmeyer, 2006). Furthermore, certain drugs, such as nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs, are well-known to damage the gastrointestinal (GI) mucosa (Bjarnason et al., 1986). The intestinal barrier is formed by the enterocyte membranes and tight junctions between enterocytes in the intestinal epithelium. In addition, factors such as mucus and tissue macrophages contribute to the barrier to restrict unwanted substances from entering the internal environment. Such substances include food antigens, bile, hydrolytic enzymes, and endotoxin (i.e., lipopolysaccharide, LPS). Loss of intestinal barrier integrity (i.e., intestinal barrier dysfunction) leads to increased intestinal permeability. Intestinal permeability is defined as the nonmediated diffusion of large (i.e., molecular weight >150 Da), normally restricted molecules from the intestinal lumen to the blood. A low level of permeability is always present, but a properly functioning immune system normally is able to keep pathogens from causing harm. However, increased permeability can result in harmful local and systemic inflammatory reactions. In humans, this situation is commonly referred to as leaky gut syndrome. The intent of this brief review is to bring attention to the causes and consequences of stress-induced intestinal barrier dysfunction. Severe physical exertion and heat stress will be highlighted as a particularly damaging stresses to the intestinal barrier. Potential interventions that can possibly reduce intestinal permeability caused by such stresses will also be examined.
Thanks for the references BUT the Journal, year, volume and page numbers are missing.
Take home for lightly roasted rats - goats milk works just as well and is cheaper - is that right...?
Right, I'm off to found a company selling goat powder based on that research then. I've learnt some good selling tips on this thread... 😉
[i]In particular, attempts at selective gut decontamination, the use of pre- or probiotics, alterations in preoperative antibiotic prophylaxis and mechanical bowel preparation have [b]not[/b] translated into benefits to patient care with particular regard to septic morbidity. Bacterial translocation remains a fascinating epiphenomenon to those with an interest in the metabolic care of the critically ill surgical patient. It is not, as yet, a reason to change clinical practice.[/i]
http://bmb.oxfordjournals.org/content/71/1/1.full
Now go away before I get really lactose intolerant.
reference
J. Anim Sci. 2009. 87:E101-E108. doi:10.2527/jas.2008-1339
© 2009 American Society of Animal Science
Goats milk and colostrum powder work out about the same cost per day, around 50 pence.
Potential benefits and hazards of physical activity and exercise
on the gastrointestinal tract.
Please click on the link for the research review
Goat milk sounds more exotic though. I'm going to be RICH!
Shall we continue?
Milkman - MemberPotential benefits and hazards of physical activity and exercise
on the gastrointestinal tract.
Is about exercise giving you gut problems. No mention of your nostrum
Then you'll either have to call me to discuss our study results offline or we'll await publication, won't we, but do you now understand the physiology and consequences of exercise induced heat stress?
But you're flogging a milk industry waste product in a snake oil style, and not in the business of treating anyone other than rats for heat stress.
Fail.
ahh, this is what makes this forum different from southerndownhill isn't it? 😆 What a monster thread, I will follow with genuine curiosity.
physiology and consequences of exercise induced heat stress
Seen the weather outside? No danger of any of that on tonight's ride.
here's another piece of the puzzle for you, another fortune for clubber to make in the vitamin c market
Free Radic Biol Med. 2003 Aug 1;35(3):284-91.
Exercise-induced endotoxemia: the effect of ascorbic acid supplementation.
Ashton T, Young IS, Davison GW, Rowlands CC, McEneny J, Van Blerk C, Jones E, Peters JR, Jackson SK.
Department of Sport Science, De Montfort University, Lansdowne Road, Bedford, England, UK. tashton@dmu.ac.uk
Abstract
Strenuous, long-duration aerobic exercise results in endotoxemia due to increased plasma levels of lipopolysaccharide (LPS) leading to cytokine release, oxidative stress, and altered gastrointestinal function. However, the effect of short-term strenuous aerobic exercise either with or without antioxidant supplementation on exercise-induced endotoxemia is unknown. A significant increase in the concentration of bacterial LPS (endotoxin) was noted in the venous circulation of healthy volunteers following maximal acute aerobic exercise (0.14(-1) pre-exercise vs. 0.24(-1) postexercise, p <0.01). Plasma nitrite concentration also increased with exercise (0.09 +/- 0.05 nM x ml(-1) vs. 0.14 +/- 0.01 nM x ml(-1), p <0.05) as did ascorbate free radical levels (0.02 +/- 0.001 vs. 0.03 +/- 0.002 arbitrary units, p <0.05). Oral ascorbic acid supplementation (1000 mg) significantly increased plasma ascorbic acid concentration (29.45 mM x l(-1) to 121.22 mM x l(-1), p <0.05), and was associated with a decrease in plasma LPS and nitrite concentration before and after exercise (LPS: 0.01(-1); nitrite: 0.02 +/- 0.02 nM x ml(-1) vs. 0.02 +/- 0.03 nM x ml(-1)). Ascorbic acid supplementation led to a significant increase in ascorbate free radical levels both before (0.04 +/- 0.01 arbitrary units) and after exercise (0.06 +/- 0.02 arbitrary units, p <0.05). In conclusion, strenuous short-term aerobic exercise results in significant increases in plasma LPS levels (endotoxemia) together with increases in markers of oxidative stress. Supplementation with ascorbic acid, however, abolished the increase in LPS and nitrite but led to a significant increase in the ascorbate radical in plasma. The amelioration of exercise-induced endotoxemia by antioxidant pretreatment implies that it is a free radical-mediated process while the use of the ascorbate radical as a marker of oxidative stress in supplemented systems is limited.
PMID: 12885590 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
got to go to milk my cows for the next couple of days but the number is still good if you're ready to chat offline without resort to childish insults. back on Friday (correction to earlier posting - we want to look for bacterial lipopolysaccharide (LPS) not DNA as a marker for endotoxins. Perhaps you know someone who can help)
This, in combination with a hologram wristband, could invoke that baddy from Harry Potter, there would be so much magic in the air.
Two pints of semi-skimmed and one double cream please.