[Closed] My idea of a perfect Enduro bike

Santa Cruz already make the perfect enduro bike. Nomad c. Job done.

Except it has nowhere near the Geo I'm after. My old man's Alu Nomad is a step back in the direction I want to go. It's tall and steep, carbon also deadens trail feedback - note Ducati's hilarious bad love affair with the carbon framed GP bike.

Yep nomad C is up there along with the Blur LTc (67 Head angle with 150mm forks so 66 with a 160 probably)

Along with a heap of other bikes....

It's also carbon and not slack enough....

*sigh*

Closest I can think of geometry wise would be a Mondraker Dune XR with an angleset of some sort. You'd have to give up your 1.5" steerer though. Also not sure how it would rate on your suspension action/trail feedback requirements.

I guess the kind of customisation I'm after is what pro level riders get. 😥 What I really need is for Cotic to be able to weld me a custom front triangle. I'll give them a ring tomorrow. I'd happily pay a lot of money for exactly what I want but not thousands on something that isn't custom. If not, I'll buy the Rocket, take the rear triangle off and have someone like prodrive weld me up a custom front triangle.

Time to swat up on my geometry I think...

1.5 steerer is going to screw you. Luckily most folks can't tell the difference 😉 Lose that requirement and it all opens up.

(though, when I got my C456, a few people could really feel the difference from the tapered steerer which it doesn't have)

Also, trying to apply universal characteristics to a frame material never works.

Barghhhhhhhhhhhhh I thought I'd have to ditch the 1.5 steerer... anyway you still can't run angleset's with 44mm headtubes unless you go 1-1/8 and I do like the Cotic.

So are there any carbon frames that don't alter the characteristics of the trail vibrations entirely? They've all felt alien to me.

I now want my own jig, a welder and some steel tubing

OK so you want a 64 head angle - why? your heading into DH bike territory there. With a rakey front end it'll be great until the trail levels off for a flat corner.

1.5" not really needed found plenty of stiff 1 1/8th bikes around and tapered seems to work well too.

As for carbon "Deadening" the feel I found it much better than the Alu versions. Lots of good feedback due to the stiffness of the bike.

note Ducati's hilarious bad love affair with the carbon framed GP bike.

However if your sticking to your requirements then you either need to pick up a welder or have a look at some thing like Nicoli and their custom tweaked frames or stick a 160 fork in a slack 140 frame 🙂

Last Herb is 65.5 degrees HA with a low BB and short chainstays: [url= http://www.last-bikes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/LAST-HERB-160-TRAIL-MY13-1.pdf ]link[/url].

Knolly Chilcotin and Rocky Mountain Slayer also pretty low and slack.

Or, as a more leftfield choice, what about a Canfield The One? HA is 65.5 degrees with a 160mm fork, so you could get it down to 64 with an angleset... ([url= http://www.canfieldbrothers.com/frames/the-one ]Link[/url].)

You might want to drop this guy a line.

[url= http://www.descendence.com.au/?q=node/8 ]Descendance bikes[/url]

A guy on Southern Downhill (Ride it out) had a custom frame made to his spec. Veeeerrry nice! Pretty cheap too, if I recall. I'll try and find the build thread.

OK so you want a 64 head angle - why? your heading into DH bike territory there. With a rakey front end it'll be great until the trail levels off for a flat corner.

The same reason Fabien Barrel does....because I want a lighter TR250, with 160mm of travel and a full length seat tube. On steep fast stuff the bike would be hilarious and it'd be perfect for Alpine enduro riding.

On the topic of carbon downhill bikes at the worlds...I think they'd be faster on Alu bikes 😛 (I'm kidding). You are right... the two sports are entirely different, I guess I need to try out some more carbon bikes in that case.

I'm considering a Nicoli for that reason, but a custom Cotic would be epic. I will have to do my homework with the use of an angleset when picking an off the shelf bike as I don't want the BB to go below 13.3 inches or the wheelbase to become 1200mm+. Messing round with other lengths can help keep everything in check so that's why I was looking at going custom.

EDIT: Thanks for the links guys

Here's the [url= http://ride.io/forum/index.php/topic,248084.msg1958895.html#msg1958895 ]build thread[/url]

A Rocket with 160mm fork has a 65.7 head angle. If you can put up with a 1 1/8" steerer then you could probably get a 1.5 degree angleset, and get it down to 64.2. Might even manage 2 degrees off it. It wouldn't lengthen the top tube, if that's what you want, but it would lengthen the wheelbase considerably, and drop the BB slightly. Could be enough without the custom frame?

As for why so slack, Fabien Barel has been riding 64 head angles on his enduro bikes for a few years: http://www.vitalmtb.com/photos/features/Fabien-Barels-Mondraker-Foxy-R,2874/Slideshow,0/sspomer,2

He also helped design the Mondraker Forward Geometry, which is why I recommended the XR. I havent had the chance to try one, but I can certainly see where its coming from, and the design is such a big departure from everything else that I would think its definitely worth a test ride if you can find one.

Mmm. Steel front triangle on the Rocket means relatively straightforward modification ya know, get the nose chopped off and welded back on where you want it (or a 1.5 tube)

A Rocket with 160mm fork has a 65.7 head angle. If you can put up with a 1 1/8" steerer then you could probably get a 1.5 degree angleset, and get it down to 64.2. Might even manage 2 degrees off it. It wouldn't lengthen the top tube, if that's what you want, but it would lengthen the wheelbase considerably, and drop the BB slightly. Could be enough without the custom frame?

As for why so slack, Fabien Barel has been riding 64 head angles on his enduro bikes for a few years: http://www.vitalmtb.com/photos/features/Fabien-Barels-Mondraker-Foxy-R,2874/Slideshow,0/sspomer,2

He also helped design the Mondraker Forward Geometry, which is why I recommended the XR. I havent had the chance to try one, but I can certainly see where its coming from, and the design is such a big departure from everything else that I would think its definitely worth a test ride if you can find one.

Yeah I was looking at that frame, they're selling the forward geometry Dune XR frame only - but I can't see the 10mm stem anywhere. Does it come with it? I'd like to be able to buy that stem separately. I was thinking of incorporating forward geometry into the little idea I have going - I'm thinking some weird bastard child of the Dune XR and the Cotic with a really slack head angle. All the rock garden stability of a downhill bike, with quicker steering. Mmmmmm Nomnomnom. Need to spend a lot of time playing with/thinking about the ideas I've got going.

It's times like this I wish I'd done engineering instead of Biomed so I could toy with some of my ideas a bit more in the real world.

Mmm. Steel front triangle on the Rocket means relatively straightforward modification ya know, get the nose chopped off and welded back on where you want it (or a 1.5 tube)

It'd take a lot of balls to potentially ruin a perfectly decent front triangle though. I don't think my heart would be able to handle something as lovely as the rocket getting chopped up!

Might invalidate the warranty eh

Santa Cruz already make the perfect enduro bike. Nomad c. Job done.

Except it's not though. It's pretty good, tough, light etc.

However they have some quirky sizing (silly short TT's for the size of the bike for example) and it's quite short in the wheelbase, steep & with long chainstays & a high BB. But then it's a bike based on nearly a 5 year old design now, so it's not going to be at the forefront.

A bigger, burlier TRC would be my ideal Enduro bike 🙂

Is a Specidlized Enduro close in geo? Short stays, low bb - not sure about head angle though.

Good shout, the Enduro's seem to be getting bigger & bigger though? 165mm travel, that's too much for 95% of my riding.

Now if only Specialized sold the new Stumpy Evo carbon frames in the UK 🙂

every time i ride a nomad i think - if only the top tube was longer and the HA slacker - its a waste of all that lovely travel. Held back by angles ... its an XC bike with big travel and requires a long stem for long XC rides..... plenty love it but i never saw the point in it.

Is a bigger burlier trc not a nomad... Same suspension etc. I like to think the nomad has 'evolved' over the last 5 years :).
Run mine on 170 lyriks which slackens it a little, with 11/8 steerer you can use offsets. Sizing wise I'm only short and the sizing is spot on. Bb is fine.
Stumpy EVO C is a good bike but availability is shocking. Always liked the ltc/2 and rode enduro on it.
Sb66 anyone?

Here's something a little different. Mate runs a nomad c with oversized vivid air 170 forks with offsets. Resulting in higher bb, steeper seat angle and a really slack front end... He loves it.

50mm stem, 50 mile rides on the nomad. Sizing is individual, if the bike don't fit try another. I gave up on yetis after trying for years to make a 575 fit. Got a scruz and everything was perfect.

2nd hand Pitch with 160 Lyriks. Job done

Knolly Chilcotin

Yep....

[img] [/img]

This may sound a bit strange, but would it not be possible to stiffen a 1 1/8 steerer tube by inserting an internal tube to significantly thicken the walls? Do this by heating the steerer and chilling the insert and you should get a very strong mechanical join. Alternatively use epoxy. Obviously the insert would have to replace the star fangled nut so would need a thread tapped into its upper surface for the headset top cap. Then you can use an angleset on a 1 1/8 steerer and still get similar stiffness to a 1 1/2 steerer, just at a weight penalty.

What you want is the forthcoming Enduro 29". That thing will be a game changer.

one of these with an angleset?

[url] http://www.empire-cycles.com/product/20/empire-mx-6-medium-blue [/url]

What you want is the forthcoming Enduro 29". That thing will be a game changer.

Interesting, what makes you think that?
The 26" Enduro is nothing special after all. What have the existing AM 29ers got wrong?
I can think of many that I'd sooner have than an Enduro.

Is a bigger burlier trc not a nomad... Same suspension etc. I like to think the nomad has 'evolved' over the last 5 years 🙂

TRC & Nomad are very different. About the only thing they share is the VPP system. Nomad Carbon is the same bike as the Mk2 Nomad, which came out in 2008, so design wise its quite long in the tooth now 🙂

170 LyriK is quite a short fork for it's travel. With mine, external cup & offsets it was still 67 HA.

BB was probably my biggest annoyance. Riding another bike with a lower BB just highlighted how much more fun corners were 🙂

I ran mine with offset bushes - worth bearing in mind, the front shock mount (on the carbon anyway) meant you couldn't run the offset bush with some shocks, as the shock body fouled on the shock mount point.

Interesting, what makes you think that?
The 26" Enduro is nothing special after all. What have the existing AM 29ers got wrong?
I can think of many that I'd sooner have than an Enduro.

Really? The 13 S-Works 26" is 26lbs.... Has a sub 66 head angle with a 160 Lyrik and 74 seat. What else has those specs?

If the 29" weighs 27.5lbs ish with a 66/67 head and 75 seat it'll be the beginning of the end of 26" for enduro racing.

What I really need is for Cotic to be able to weld me a custom front triangle.

Call Matt at 18 bikes.

Really? The 13 S-Works 26" is 26lbs.... Has a sub 66 head angle with a 160 Lyrik and 74 seat. What else has those specs?

There's more to a bike than weight and head angle. It's not all things to all men, and there are far fare better riding bikes out there. Some have steeper HT angles, some are heavier. Some don't cost £6K and don't have avid brakes and in-house wheelsets.

Yeah and they've also got the leverage rate perfect, they run a bearing in the rear shock eye and there is no rotation in the front shock eye (I'll let you work out what that does for suspension sensitivity). The spec on that bike is great apart from the fork. Maybe you should ask all the SRAM pro's how they cope with such crap brakes? In house wheel set? They have DT internals/spokes and the rims, while not Enve tough, are pretty durable for carbon.

What would you rather ride then?

I'll let you work out what that does for suspension sensitivity

That doesn't matter to me if the bike doesn't ride and feel how [i]I[/i] like it to. For £6K, I can have whatever I want pretty much. I sooner have a Nomadc, or a chilcotin, or a Mojo HD, or a SB66c and that money would assure a fully pimped bike.
It's all about preference and you obviously like them, whereas I prefer other things. For example, my LTc is steeper than my 5 spot was and has a higher BB and I actually prefer it on everything. I'll also never own a 29er. Your tastes differ to mine. There's no right or wrong IMHO.

Hi Bwaarp.

We do have an angle headset to suit the 44mm headtube with tapered forks now - they are just due back from anodizing.

Also - though we dont stock a 1.5 steerer compression ring / upper bearing cover you can use two of our 'lower' headcups with your 1.5" steerer tube fork, re-using your current headsets upper parts - so it is possible.

Drop us an e-mail if you would be interested.
Thanks!

That doesn't matter to me if the bike doesn't ride and feel how I like it to. For £6K, I can have whatever I want pretty much. I sooner have a Nomadc, or a chilcotin, or a Mojo HD, or a SB66c and that money would assure a fully pimped bike.

Boutique bikes with half arsed R&D don't seem like good VFM to me. Messing around with crappy leverage rates just to get a new marketing angle. Sure you might be able to pimp it out with the latest bling that will do nothing for how fast you can ride.... I'll stick with the guys who have an R&D department of super solid riders and real engineers working out the kinematics.

I would bloody love one of the new Carbon Enduros, just in case anyone's giving them away.

Or the carbon Spicy. I'm not too fussy.

Boutique bikes with half arsed R&D don't seem like good VFM to me. Messing around with crappy leverage rates just to get a new marketing angle

With due respect, I trust the design engineers more than I will ever trust some dude on the internetz. Noel Buckley in particular has most probably forgotten more about engineering than we'll ever know. I'd back him against any spesh engineer.
My crappy leverage rate santa cruz is considerably better [i]for me[/i] than any spesh bike has ever been, probably ever will be. I'd also class Doerfling, Lopes, Blenky, Minaar and Peaty as pretty solid riders 😀

The worst bike I've owned was a Specialized 08 Sx Trail....no matter what I did the shock setup always felt weird.

However I do like the look of the carbon enduro. But I'd need to ride one as I still have not ridden a carbon bike I liked.

With due respect, I trust the design engineers more than I will ever trust some dude on the internetz. Noel Buckley in particular has most probably forgotten more about engineering than we'll ever know. I'd back him against any spesh engineer.
My crappy leverage rate santa cruz is considerably better for me than any spesh bike has ever been, probably ever will be. I'd also class Doerfling, Lopes, Blenky, Minaar and Peaty as pretty solid riders

Come to Whistler BP around Crankworks and check out Specialized R&D shredding the trails on their and the competitors bikes. These guys are team riders trying to replay info to the "designers", they are the engineers... That is the difference.

If you want to talk leverage rates, a rise/falling/rise rate of most VPP's is the last thing a suspension designer not influenced by marketing would come up with. In fact Santa Cruz have spent the last 5 years trying to engineer out the rate change.

Or buy my SS1 frame. Shameless plug, sorry.

Short rear end 16.75inches, Slack HA 66.5 without angleset or slacker dropouts (65.5 with slacker dropouts or upto 64 with an angleset), low bb 13.5 inches, comes with a Bos Stoy, takes a front mech and has routing for a dropper post. My current build is around 32.5 lbs.

Now you can all start slagging off Intenses. Again.

In fact Santa Cruz have spent the last 5 years trying to engineer out the rate change.

Can you explain why my SC feels so much nicer (again, to me) than any FSR bike ever has? And I include properly set up and recent Enduros in that. In fact the only MTB I've ever ridden and seriously disliked was a Camber. Couldn't wait to get off the thing.
I'm not a suspension guru and wouldn't claim to be. Graphs and numbers are very much secondary as they don't mean a lot to me.
I would assume (perhaps incorrectly) that the vast majority of MTB designers are enthusiasts, hence working in the industry.

Get yourself a Nicolai AM?

Start with std geo and customise / tweak the HA & anything else to your tastes. Assuming you know exactly what you need / want.

Great bikes & great build. Not cheap but 5 year no quibble transferrable warranty speaks volumes

Have you looked at the Nicolai Ion 16?

[url= http://nicolai.net/151-1-Tech+Sheets.html ]Tech Sheet[/url]

65degree headangle in the low setting with a low BB. Tapered headtube as standard but you can have 1.5 for £130 upcharge.

Alternatively the AM with custom front triangle.

Banshee Rune now had bearings instead of bushings, and 65 degree HA, with a decent TT length. Has a 18.5 seat tube,

Lapierre Spicy now available frame only too.

Get a hardtail if you want trail feedback - The idea of suspension is to absorb inpacts - or did I miss something in primary school 🙂

Can you explain why my SC feels so much nicer (again, to me) than any FSR bike ever has? And I include properly set up and recent Enduros in that. In fact the only MTB I've ever ridden and seriously disliked was a Camber. Couldn't wait to get off the thing.
I'm not a suspension guru and wouldn't claim to be. Graphs and numbers are very much secondary as they don't mean a lot to me.
I would assume (perhaps incorrectly) that the vast majority of MTB designers are enthusiasts, hence working in the industry.

I guess you must like the 'plush' feeling mid stroke of earlier VPP? Somebody's plush is another's wallowing... However, from the Blur TR onwards the bikes feel quite different and far more responsive IMO. I know countless people who just can't get consistant feel through the stroke on the earlier bikes, especially the Nomad, hence the Push link.

You would be amazed how many designers and industry folk can't ride for sh*t.

As mentioned aboved, if you are serious about having a front end made, drop me a line at matt@18bikes.co.uk

Matt

My Last Herb FR with <65° HA with 160 forks is too slack for a fair few bits of trail but its definitely got me out of trouble more than once. 165mm rear travel with a 13.9" BB (-15mm gives 13.4", does it work like that?)definitely wouldn't want much lower than that.

I bloody love the suspension on it too.

Was going to sell it this winter as for 90% of my riding its just too slack and its a bloomin heavy frame - 4.4kg inc shock. Was thinking about Nicolai Ion 16 personally.

This may sound a bit strange, but would it not be possible to stiffen a 1 1/8 steerer tube by inserting an internal tube to significantly thicken the walls?

Well or the bike industrie could have gone the correct way, and use almost full steerer. Next time you pop round a MX track have a look at the steerer size and tell me how many tappered or 1.5" you see 😉

Count the single crown forks while you're at it.

Well what's wrong with triple crown? Surely if we're talking about 160-180 mm of travel it makes sense to use triple crown fork?

Nowt wrong with it, though obviously it can have impacts on steering lock. Just pointing out that it doesn't make much sense talking about steerers in isolation.

Juan, I have looked at a few photos and still have no idea what you're talking about. What is a MX bike's headset / steerer like?

Interesting thread this 🙂 and if I remember from my mx days the steerers are massive and straight !

I remeber at the roc when 1.5" steerer were the new black that the marzo boze had a marzo MX fork side by side with the Shiver, and the MX hadn't a steerer much bigger than the shiver. But that was backin the day though.

You can get all angle headsets to fit all sorts of headtubes:

http://www.workscomponents.co.uk/full-headsets---most-common-sizes-14-c.asp

I guess you must like the 'plush' feeling mid stroke of earlier VPP? Somebody's plush is another's wallowing... However, from the Blur TR onwards the bikes feel quite different and far more responsive IMO. I know countless people who just can't get consistant feel through the stroke on the earlier bikes, especially the Nomad, hence the Push link.

Interesting. I had an Intense 5.5 which did feel wallowy, my VPP2 LTc feels a lot more propped up. and doesn't sit down too much when I don't want it too e.g berms etc
Some of this I've (maybe mistakenly) attributed to the shock and surmised that boost valve means "magic". 😀
How much influence do you think shock technology has vs suspension design? A coil transformed my DW 5 spot, but an RP23 feels brilliant on the LTc.

Don't get me started on signle crowns, if someone produced a decent 160mm-180mm dual crown in a similar weight category to my coil lyriks, I'd be all over them, even if they cost a bit and needed air prings or ti springs etc to keep the weight down. Integrated stems are the way to go.

Just researching my options at the moment, I think I might try a slackening my mega off more for the time being but I'd like to move to the Cotic at some point seeing as I have an undersized frame anyway. I'll get in touch with the chap who mentioned the 44mm angleset and with the frame 18bikesmatt about a custom front triangle if Cotic won't do one. This will probably be a project for next summer/Autumn though - I'm going to take my time with this build and I also need the money :mrgreen:.

I guess with my dislike of single crowns and my bike preferences is that I'm after a 140/160r-160f mm bike that weighs between 28-32lb's, has the geometry of a downhill bike, a steep a full length seat tube and dual crowns to keep similar steering precision.....it'd be schawweeeeeeet. It's a shame no company will indulge my desires and that there's no real market for it. 👿 I'm not so bothered about coil shocks/forks for this this kind of bike, air would be fine and it'd keep the weight down and the geometry and stiffness would make for a really fun ride.

P.S The push link is for coil shocks really, there's nothing wrong with the stock Nomad link if your running an airshock.

4.4kg inc shock. Was thinking about Nicolai Ion 16 personally.

Bar weight, I don't see how that's going to be much better. It's slack as well! Slackness isn't good for climbing but the bike I've got in my head isn't for all dayers, it's a play-bike/enduro bike that you can just about mash up to the top of your runs. An evolution on mini-downhill bikes (that I never thought were mini, light or any more fun than a full blown race rig).

Have a look at the Scott voltage fr as a frame only package in long (if you are under 6 foot) 7.5 lbs 140 to 180 travel. 1.5 head tube, 65 head angle std. 13.5 bb height. Adjustable chain stay length by 20mm. No front mech mounting, so Will only work single ring on front though. Mine set up fox 36 float (160/180) Dhx air shock 222mm giving 170 rear travel. Xtr 1x 10. Crossmax st wheels. All up wt 28/29 lbs, a rock solid and plush all mountain flyer, you can pedal all day

I really should know better than to comment on this as it'll probably just turn into some sort of flame fest but I can't really resist since the OP is usually spamming threads about 150/160mm bikes to say that anything other than a mega is a pointless indulgence and little more than flaunting your wealth.

You want a bike that's slacker than a mega with triples that weighs between 28 - 32 lbs with a steep seat angle - stick some offset bushings on your mega, get some boxxer WC's and slam them and build it with full XTR and some enve wheels. Sorted. It'll ride like absolute sh*t but doubtless you'll love it.

Sorry, but basically, if you need a 160mm bike that's slacker than the mega then you need a skills course, not a new bike. Sorry but that is true.
It's a fundamental mistake to assume that all that matters is the head angle and to focus on that. There are plenty bikes out there could fit your bill but you're probably overlooking them based on one measurement, not how they ride. F'rinstance the new Meta SX, on paper doesn't seem radically different to the mega, but in the real world feels considerably longer, lower, slacker......

The closest thing I can see to an off the shelf solution to the O.Ps problem would be the Morewood Kalula with Boxxer WC's, an air can and a super bling build but, imo it would be of little use without a bike park and a chair lift regardless of weight. Even that probably won't be slack enough to solve the OP's problem anyway. Flame on.

muddyfunster - Member

The closest thing I can see to an off the shelf solution to the O.Ps problem would be the Morewood Kalula with Boxxer WC's, an air can and a super bling build but, imo it would be of little use without a bike park and a chair lift regardless of weight.

I would love to see some of your less close solutions 😆 "Get a Sierra Sapphire and take 2 of the wheels off" maybe.

I'm not going to flame but I will say that's a load of bollocks. Flaunting your wealth? Shit the bed.

wrecker

I'm not going to flame but I will say that's a load of bollocks. Flaunting your wealth? Shit the bed.

Northwind

I would love to see some of your less close solutions

Slacker than a mega - check. Rated for triples - check. Mini Dh, play bike - check. Built up to 32lbs - just about check. Pointless - check.