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. It seemed like the objective of every ride was to cut up the biggest swathes of trail/dirt as possible but locking wheels at every opportunity and skidding into/around every turn
Yea but it's great fun.
It's always been a "thing".
Anyone remember "Dirt"? JMC, Warner and Hemming amongst others carving chunks out of the North York moors?
I see both sides of it, and it's largely about applying a bit of (un)common sense. English access law doesn't help either IMO - you can't ride this well surfaced footpath in winter, but it's perfectly OK to ride that knee deep boggy bridleway across the moors. Personally I have far more of a problem with normal average trail riders (and walkers!) doing stuff like Cut Gate in midwinter and spreading the trail 50m wide, than I do with riders smashing the arse out of a trail they've built themselves on a steep bit of commercial forestry land - the latter will drain better being steep, useage will be low, and in 5 years time the entire lot will get flattened when the area is logged.
Further than that though - our place in the greater MTB world is down to riders getting out all year, all weather, all conditions and doing their thing. Did Peaty, Ratboy, the Athertons, Danny Hart, Manon & Tahnee et al get where they are over the last 20 years by riding nicey nicey and only on dry days, or did they get there by religiously going out and smashing out run after run, trail after trail, no matter what? As a resident of Sheffield I'd say local mountainbiking has benefited far more from having a local ex-world champion fronting it, than it has suffered from the odd bit of trail conflict and cheeky riding.
Which leads me on to the bit about contact with land managers. I have a minor input into Ride Sheffield, and it's interesting to see how the more forward thinking managers are reacting to bikes. On the whole - its very positive and we've had a LOT of footpaths etc reclassified as permissive B/Ways as a result. They've realised they can't stop riders from going where they want, but they can guide them with a bit of give & take - "we absolutely don't want you riding here <<reason given>>, but we're really not bothered about here and there". By their standards bikes are a relatively linear intrusion on the landscape, compared to "naturists" who'll go tramping everywhere to get their photo of the Lesser Spotted Warbler (and scare it off), or dog owners who let their animal run wild and eat said Lesser Spotted Warbler! They also know the MTB community tends to spend a lot of cash in local businesses (cafes!)and can be relied on to pitch in with volunteer days to keep "their" trails running sweet.
Bit of a ramble there, but you get the idea - far from all bad IMO!
Sorry to come over all Socialist but personal desire should be taking second place to the greater good.
Thats all very well, but except in the most extreme cases who decides what is the "greater good" ?
By their standards bikes are a relatively linear intrusion on the landscape, compared to “naturists” who’ll go tramping everywhere to get their photo of the Lesser Spotted Warbler
Are you sure you mean 'naturists'? I hadn't realised that was an issue on the Sheffield side of the Peak...
It wasn’t really. Just the usual small group of self righteous guardians of the trail. In fact the same as now.
I remember riding in the Peak District in the late 80’s, early 90’s when there was a real concern about trail access as MTB’s were seen in the same way as crossers. I lost count of the amount of people who would shout at you for riding a perfectly legal bit of trail at even low speeds. You acted responsibly to ensure you didn’t ruin it for others. When you were away from the people you would go as fast as you could but leaving skid marks was a lasting (even if only for a few days) that MTB’s had been there.
Now there is a LOT more people on bikes in the countryside and a lot more people are more accepting. But there is still a lot of people who don’t want us there and upsetting them for no good reason is a sure fire way to turn the whole situation back 30 years and really put a big question over access for us all.
It is especially tricky now as we have purpose built trail centres. What is stopping powerful land owners and organisations arguing that we don’t need to use rights of way as we have our own playgrounds to use? Newer bikes are faster, newer riders are now skilful to such a degree that we often look like motocrossers - it doesn’t take many NT members or Peak Park rangers to agree in their meetings to “do something about it” for a chain reaction to take place which could be the beginning of the end.
There are people on this thread who just don’t seem to care. I feel sorry for you. You really need to grow up and see the bigger picture. If you’ve got your own bit of land which you can use which doesn’t have public access then go wild, that’s fine. Just please, I beg you, have some respect for the other users of the countryside, and your own sport, and keep it sensible on public rights of way or other bits of land.
There are a lot of people who have ridden MTB’s pretty much their entire life (like me) who really care about the sport and access not just now but for future generations. Even if I couldn’t ride I would hopefully be able to be a good advocate for off road riding. You might just be into riding off road for the fitness or having a laugh with mates or the challenge and if we lost access you’d just move onto another sport. But I can’t. MTB is pretty much all I know and to be honest I’ll do anything to be able to continue doing it, and enabling others to do it way into the future - if that includes slowing down and keeping the trails in the same state I found them I think it’s a small price to pay.
So it kind of falls into two groups then...
1. Managed woodland = do what you want, it`ll all be destroyed anyway when the logging happens.
2. Unmanaged/Public Access = Have some respect, don't dig, don't unnecessarily tear up the trail.
So we are all agreed within two pages, excellent! 😉
As always, it's all about perspective!
Digging some limited, narrow bike trails across a 'managed' woodland that'll get ripped up anyway in 15 years when they log it, and then riding that trial only occasionally, not dropping litter etc well, no problem that i can see (and this is historically often tolerated by landowners)
Digging a massive wide trail through a 1000 yo wood, in an SSI, across popular walkers path, well, that's a different matter.
The trick is to avoid conflict. Our population growth is putting our 'Nature' under increasing pressure everywhere. We need to be sensible, and find the happy middle ground. However, today, far too many people (who mostly live in the towns) see "muddy" as COMPLETELY DESTROYED !!! /dailmail. Our country side is not (mainly) a chocolate box landscape, and shouldn't be seen as such.....
On another note, that section with Tahnee et al at (I think) Revolution Bike Park - some top skillz on show there, so much speed on such a slippery surface.
However, today, far too many people (who mostly live in the towns) see “muddy” as COMPLETELY DESTROYED !!! /dailmail. Our country side is not (mainly) a chocolate box landscape, and shouldn’t be seen as such…..
Very much this. It combines with the subconscious (or conscious) dislike a lot of miserable bastards have for seeing other people enjoying themselves and gets wrapped up into some kind of warped ‘conservation’ issue.
When most of the people who think they ‘appreciate’ the countryside have driven there and parked their cars in the purpose-built car parks (presumably they think that these car parks have existed since Neolithic times).
”Mud in countryside shocker” is a Daily Mail headline waiting to happen.
I’m baffled people really think like this. Skidding around manmade corners in a muddy woods? They’ll dissapear after a week of rain. If this is a cause of concern for you I really don’t know how you deal with any of the (many) more important issues.
Great in theory - but what about the same scenario where the lads do it on a stretch of open heathland or moorland, destroy the top layer of vegetation and result in the water scouring out a great big gully that will never recover?
How about the kids building that little kicker on the edge of that gully, not going to do any harm is it? Except the gulley is actually part of a Scheduled Ancient Monument, and a few months later English Heritage come round and find someone has dug away a big chunk of the bank that formed a prehistoric hill fort in order to use the rocks for a jump, and dug out another patch to create the run out. Suddenly theres all sorts of shit to pay, threats of prosecution and the landowner banning all bikes from the woods.
Its easy to dismiss damage unless you know the context - ground nesting birds being a great example - its a big joke to some but the fact is that the activities if a tiny minority of our community are holding back far greater gains in access for the majority.
Great in theory – but what about the same scenario where the lads do it on a stretch of open heathland or moorland, destroy the top layer of vegetation and result in the water scouring out a great big gully that will never recover?
Is that real or hypothetical?
Great in theory – but what about the same scenario where the lads do it on a stretch of open heathland or moorland, destroy the top layer of vegetation and result in the water scouring out a great big gully that will never recover?
You mean like ramblers have been doing all over the moors for years? Any walk over the Northumberland hills shows deep trenches and bogs that will never recover.
But lots of hypothetical all over this thread, that and extrapolation
You know it's time to chuck it when the scheduled ancient monuments get trotted out. With children's faces on for good measure.
Is that real or hypothetical?
TINAS - the open moor, the scheduled monument and the ground nesting bird one are real examples that I've dealt with over the years
All three led to threats of a ban for all cycling and enforcement (two involved threats of prosecution) where, up until then, it had been informally accepted despite there being no legal right of access.
early 90’s when there was a real concern about trail access as MTB’s were seen in the same way as crossers.
There were plans put forward for a very early trail centre in the Swansea valley at around the time that CyB and Afan were being launched. The locals objected on the basis that there would be too much noise and anti-social behaviour. The site is now used as a motorised off-road training area. I guessed at the time that we were being confused with motocrossers so it’s satisfying that they got what they objected too.
I think I must be getting old. I see the'trails' being built in our local woods as vandalism. There is no legal right to ride a bike in them, someone cuts down trees and pulls down dry stone walls to make the features.
They don't seem to return to their previous state over winter.
Now if you have the land owners permission then fine.
I think I must be getting old. I see the’trails’ being built in our local woods as vandalism. There is no legal right to ride a bike in them, someone cuts down trees and pulls down dry stone walls to make the features.
Depends on the woods then? Dry stone walls are mans creations, many woodlands are just the shittest land with tree's planted on them, most of the trails we were hitting in the tweed valley were carving through the tree ploughed hill sides
Dry stone walls are mans creations
that is a point that is both true and meaningless.
PS So is your bike can i cut it up to make something else then without your permission?
Nope just a perspective needs applying and in the countryside many people have opinions not all are valid, not all are based on good facts and not all are right.
The idea that one video makes people do mad things is a little silly.
There will always be dickheads.
If you think the UK has restrictive access then you should really try a lot of other places first, England is exceptionally progressive compared to a lot of places around the world.
The idea that one video makes people do mad things is a little silly.
I dont recall anyone suggesting that it did.
However it clearly reinforces a stereotype of MTB'ers that can be used against us by those who oppose increased access, and additionally fuels and reinforces the impression that such behaviour is 'normal and acceptable' to the wider MTB community, including a great number of kids and newbies who have been told these riders are who they should look up to and aspire to be like (if that wasn't the case then they wouldn't have sponsorship deals, would they?)
England is exceptionally progressive compared to a lot of places around the world.
Like Scotland?
Most nimbys will never see these videos anyway, but if they do, then imo it's not the reason they're nimbies, it's just the convenient tool they'll use. But they'd find something else. I don't think you win anything by trying not to offend people who want to be offended- you just end up losing the things they want to take away without a fight.
Your nimbies may vary. But I've had people threaten to call the police when they found me clearing nettles off a public footpath, the offended will find a way to be offended.
But it's not the nimbys seeing the video that's a potential issue. It's the lads that think "that's cool" I'll be doing that next time I'm out but without the realisation that the trails in the video are hopefully cut with the landowners permission and the intent of being treated like that.
I think I must be getting old. I see the’trails’ being built in our local woods as vandalism. There is no legal right to ride a bike in them, someone cuts down trees and pulls down dry stone walls to make the features.
They don’t seem to return to their previous state over winter.
Now if you have the land owners permission then fine.
And if the landowner bans you from walking in 'his' woods then that's fair enough and you'll walk elsewhere without complaint?
PS So is your bike can i cut it up to make something else then without your permission?
Yes, crack on. It's one of my collection of six million bikes paid for by my great grandfather. I'll probably not even notice!
Most of what I see in the video is harmless fun, although I do agree that around walkers paths it's worth reigning things in to avoid giving nimbys and landowners ammo against riding.
I don't think there's ever been a time in all my years of mountain biking that some one hasn't been keen to tell me that I'm just about to loose permission to ride somewhere Be that on bridleways, or in a particular wood, or moorland track and kids building a scrubby little line with a couple of turns likewise is something that's always happened. I built one in Rassler's Wood nr. Marlow 40 years ago.
This film and thread show that while everything changes, nothing really changes.
@ninfan try looking a little further usa, Australia, nz, parts of Europe ..
^ Austria & Germany, 2m rule. If it isn’t 2m wide or more, you can’t ride it (Bikeparks excl)
I've been riding mountain bikes for twenty years..and in that time I have seen open hostility towards me on legal bridleways with stick wielding red socks chasing me with fury ..to a greater acceptance in the last 5 years in particular on footpaths which would have been a complete no-go when I first started ..
My own take on things ..is that I ride where I like but that is mainly on b/ways and paths in remote hills , mountains & moorland ..Im doing no more damage than the walkers who share them ..I have no problem with secret / off piste trails particularly on F.C land ..as already said they will be trashed by forest machinery in the end anyway ..but draw the line on private land without the landowners permission...thats just asking for trouble.
Ninfans right. In Scotland you have right to roam - a very precious and unusual thing.. Its a qualified right tho - and it boils down to "don't be a dick" By and large it works. No other country has it.
I don’t think you win anything by trying not to offend people who want to be offended
true but "we" dont win anything by not giving a shit where or how we build our cheeky trails.
Both walkers and cyclists have some dicks in their community and neither is particularly indicative of their community or helpful to it.
No other country has it.
A they are making it to the point....
I used to come here when it was all just fields.
Because one Scotland has better access rights than that doesn't invalidate mikewsmith's point that compared to many other countries England has progressive access.
I dont recall anyone suggesting that it did.
However it clearly reinforces a stereotype of MTB’ers that can be used against us by those who oppose increased access, and additionally fuels and reinforces the impression that such behaviour is ‘normal and acceptable’ to the wider MTB community, including a great number of kids and newbies who have been told these riders are who they should look up to and aspire to be like (if that wasn’t the case then they wouldn’t have sponsorship deals, would they?)
That's kind of my issue with it. I would think that these videos are watched by a large number of kids who subsequently think "this is how we should ride/behave". They probably don't understand that there was more than likely consultation with landowners during the making of the film and just head straight to there nearest riding spot and start trashing it.
Another case in point was an episode of The Atherton Diaries I watched about a year ago, where Rachel and her two brothers hired scooters, absolutely trashed them by riding them over jumps etc, then returned them to the owner and walked away. They all thought it was hilarious and had great fun trashing the bikes, but as role models it doesn't set a great example of behaviour to the kids that look up to them.
I was sliding around, doing skids on bikes before mountain bike videos existed. It's what kids on bikes do. I'd hazard a guess, that most of the people on here did exactly the same thing. So what, someone made a video of it, that in the bigger picture, no one will see.
Or, you could just ban fun altogether, and your kids could stay inside and look forward to a life of obesity and diabetes.
And if the Atherton's on mopeds annoys you, you don't want to look on Bernard Kerr's instagrIn at the moment 😀 but I'm not going to complain, because I'm honest, and did exactly the same thing as a teenager abroad.
I had more of an issue in a recent Dudes of Hazzard video where they though it highly hilarious to jump in a "adolescent" sapling tree snapping it in the process. I just watched it and thought, why? Maybe i'm getting old? but i have no problem with people shreding it in woods, cutting trails etc. nature will take it back once its unused for a few months. But snapping a tree for a laugh just seemed like ****ish behaviour. Maybe nowadays since the advent of the mobile phones its easier to break stuff in the wild then smash up a phone booth...
And if the Atherton’s on mopeds annoys you, you don’t want to look on Bernard Kerr’s instagrIn at the moment 😀 but I’m not going to complain, because I’m honest, and did exactly the same thing as a teenager abroad.
It does annoy me, in any other sport at that level and as role models to the future generations of their sport they would be getting sacked, losing sponsors etc, but it seems like if your in an extreme sport then its accepted behaviour.
Hooligans?
Watch out for the Santa Cruz Suicide Squad, they ambush single riders and sort out their tax returns for them.
Cotic Youth were a big crew with a few top lads, always travelled away. Bit slack these days. They once took all four corners of Llandegla from the Marin Young Guv'nors.
Really trailwagger? Do you not read the news? Put next to the accusations of serious sexual misconduct, at best, by various football and rugby players recently, being a dick on a moped is a minor problem.
Really trailwagger? Do you not read the news? Put next to the accusations of serious sexual misconduct, at best, by various football and rugby players recently, being a dick on a moped is a minor problem.
I didn't say it was the worlds biggest problem, but this is primarily a mountain bike forum, therefore we are discussing the behaviour of top riders and role models in our sport. I stand by my comment that manufacturers in other sports would not tolerate that kind of "hooligan" behaviour from their sponsored stars, so why do MTB brands not mind?
manufacturers in other sports would not tolerate that kind of “hooligan” behaviour from their sponsored stars, so why do MTB brands not mind?
It's a matter of target audience and marketing returns. I'm sure Ratboy sells more bikes for SC than buyers who are alienated by hooligan behaviour.
I would think that these videos are watched by a large number of kids who subsequently think “this is how we should ride/behave”
A large number of kids who already ride mountain bikes maybe, and are probably already aware of where they can build a sneaky trail. The chances of a wider audience are pretty slim; there's so much completing for everyone's attention these days, I doubt this gets much viewing outside it's narrow target .
In other sports, teams and sponsors still support people after some horrible crimes. Have a look at Joey Bartons rap sheet. He'll, look at most of the England team in the eighties. Barry sheen and James Hunt were hardly angels, but don't worry, well sack a couple of mountain bikers for the horrible crime of doing some skids and pissing about on mopeds.
If you want bad examples to kids, I suggest you look at most main stream sports, or politicians for that matter.
I saw a 14 year old hooligan rip a boris bike from its dock the other day and proceed to perform a perfect 100 yard wheelie - I have to confess I was impressed!
I agree, its hardly crime of the century but don't we want our top sports stars to be good role models for our kids? Or do we want them to promote a sense of "do whatever the F you want cause there wont be any direct consequences to your actions."
<span style="display: inline !important; float: none; background-color: transparent; color: #222222; font-family: 'Open Sans'; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 22.4px; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;">A large number of kids who already ride mountain bikes maybe, and are probably already aware of where they can build a sneaky trail. The chances of a wider audience are pretty slim; there’s so much completing for everyone’s attention these days, I doubt this gets much viewing outside it’s narrow target .</span>
I wasn't suggesting it does have an influence outside of the target audience, I just think as role models with the ability to influence future generations there are much better messages they can send out than, "its all about having a laugh".